Design Lesson 101 - Fallout/Fallout 2

[sentorio]

RP aspect of Fallout was awesome, I remember killing one guy in a bar just because he made fun of me in front of other customers. (even though I knew that was a terrible idea from game point of view I couldn't resist).

There are a few games out there those make you feel that way.

 

[Seelix]

Here's an example about handholding and so-called freedom. It starts very early and the way it works isn't very appealing.

Right. I really love those reminders in upper left corner. They're even better than Oblivion's invasive journal since they appear here and there and evey time game is loaded too! - just in case this stupid player forgot what he/she was about to do... Oh please. I understand that in tutorial some stuff must be said like how to move, how to manipulate objects... etc., but: "you SHOULD stay and enjoy"?

I just didn't enjoy my lousy party, especially because some kids were mean, adults treated me like some half-brain baby and I wanted to go somewhere else like my quarters for example. But no. That wasn't part of the plan. And I had to speak to everybody, go through every planned and kinda dull situation just to finally trigger "daddy" who then allowed me to go out of the room. Wow! But it was MY party, wsn't it? And some stupid kid attacked me and I couldn't even punch him in his face or at least block him? What an immersive tutorial... I really felt like 'OMG! I was being actually there' [according to what some misguided people think the definition of 'immerse' is].

When "daddy" was triggered to push the game forward and allowed me to go outside I was told to go to reactor room but I decided to roam a bit through vault's corridor. There was some guard in front of closed door who said something about 'door being locked for a reason' - that's understandable since kids aren't allowed everywhere. I went further into some corridor and... game exited to desktop. Here's nice reward for being inquisitive and reward served in classical Bethesdian style.

I check some possibilities during tutorial and game seemed to become confused when thing were done in the wrong order or not exatcly as planned. Funny.

I am aware of the fact that it's just the beginning of the game I am referring to, it's only tutorial, but isn't the beginning usually this part of game that encourages, discourages or at least tell something about some basic game features?

 

[Freudian]

How is him being kicked out of Vault City and thus unable to access that part of the game because he talked rudely to a guy much different from [spoiler:54ed349e24]telling the Sheriff about Burke and then helping killing Burke, which denies you access to Tenpenny tower and all that has to offer later on[/spoiler:54ed349e24]?

 

[whirlingdervish]

Go play it and find out.

 

[MorbidMind]

[spoiler:14a361216f]You aren't denied access to tenpenny tower. You can walk right in and go talk to tenpenny, you still get the quest to kill the ghouls and he doesn't even acknowledge that Burke is dead.[/spoiler:14a361216f]

 

[Pope Viper]

How hard would it have been to put some type of flag so he knows Burke is dead?

 

[MorbidMind]

Probably not hard. He stood there rambling about how he didn't know what he would do without his capable associate Burke. I facepalmed pretty hard.

*edit* I'm also pretty sure the game doesn't want you to save Simms. I popped Burke before he could get a shot off, Simms still fell over dead, but then vanished. I found him in the middle of town, he has one line of dialog in response to you saving him, thats it. I was pretty pissed.

 

[Mrxknown]

Probably not hard. He stood there rambling about how he didn't know what he would do without his capable associate Burke. I facepalmed pretty hard.

*edit* I'm also pretty sure the game doesn't want you to save Simms. I popped Burke before he could get a shot off, Simms still fell over dead, but then vanished. I found him in the middle of town, he has one line of dialog in response to you saving him, thats it. I was pretty pissed.

Hence another example of just poor programming and poor writing.

I wonder, Todd Howard has been with Betheseda for how long? 1997? As a career minded person, I think it would be wise to go to other companies and work there. See how they are doing things.

The biggest annoyance I have is that they say, "We made the game for ourselves" and how "when we should people [VATS killing scenes for "fun"] people were like 'OH God!' "

Or how "part of the humor is the gore in VATS"

Even as I'm playing the game I'd like turn VATS-slo-mo mode off. It also is just gratuitous. Not that I hate it, but it gets old and as a 24 year old man, if I want to see gore OK, but if I don't DON'T FORCE ME.

I like realistic reactions versus "humor-filled gore".

Fallout never used gore as a joke. It wasn't a laughing manner. Yeah, it's cool to aim for the eyes. But it wasn't a joke.

Not to mention I don't think Fallout had gore for the sake of gore. It was a way to depict how rough the world was.

I think I can give a pretty good example of the hand holding in fallout 3 that wasn't' evident in the previous games.

[spoiler:7d3ec2d307]

Also, interesting side note. It takes more points in explosives to disable a land mine then it does a nuke. [/spoiler:7d3ec2d307]

Awesome article btw, really an enjoyable read and I'm going to be watching that design studio in the future.

It does? I already had mentats and I used those. Kinda missed it. Also, I really didn't pay attention to the skill that was required I just popped them all cause I figured I'd needed them. When I guess one would have worked.

On top of all this. Betheseda has never been good at story telling. RPGs, while allowing players to play a role, are suppose to have great stories. Not quests served as stories for players to "imagine".

Lately, the more I think of it, the more I wished Epic brought the Fallout rights. They put a lot of effort into their games and while they may not be RPG developers, they seem to understand how to create a believable game world.


*Pope - Fixed spoiler tag.

 

[UncannyGarlic]

Yes, that one red notch on your compass is totally "holding your hand" and dumbing the game down.

Alerting you to enemies in ways other than visually seeing them or hearing them is hand holding. That said, if the game is designed around use of something like a radar or the compass then it can add some good, strategic gameplay, but I have seen no evidence of this in Fallout 3.

The original Fallouts had areas of interest appear on your map that you could fast travel to as soon as you learned about them in a dialogue or whatever. In F3 you have to physically walk to these areas before you can fast travel.

The original Fallouts had some locations marked on your maps when someone told you about it and marked it on your map. That said, Fallout didn't have fast travel and yes, I already acknowledged that you have to go to an area in Fallout 3 before fast traveling to it.

Dumbed down? Who was talking about dumbing down? Telling the player exactly what skills are checked and your chance of success when checking it = hand-holding.

Exactly. Note that I was sarcastically responding to your original post which never once mentions dumbing down, it only mentions coddling which I reasonably assumed was another term for hand holding.

Uh, what?

First quest in Fallout 3: Go to Megaton
First quest in Fallout: Go to Vault 15

Exactly how is Fallout giving you more direction?

Indeed. Vault 15 didn't (as far as I remember) contain any clues as to where to go next, you were supposed to discover Shady Sands on your way to Vault 15 which would then lead you south, which will then lead you further south, which eventually ends up leading you to Necropolis. Fallout 3 sends you directly to Megaton where people will tell you exactly where to go next.

Putting a notch on your compass (checking your Pipboy map every 20-30 seconds as you truck through the wastelands would've been preferable?) and showing skill checks next to dialogue != BETHESDA IS TOTALLY LEADING YOU THROUGH THE GAME. ZOMG. RUINED.

I never said any of that, nor has anyone else. That said, it's unarguable that it's hand holding, the only question is whether or not it adds to the game.

 

[whirlingdervish]

well considering how much bloom there is and how everything is brown, the compass adds the ability to actually notice your enemies from a distance before they shoot at you.

I wouldn't consider that a plus tho, just a workaround for the shit graphics and the "brown rubble is the new trees" attitude they seem to have had while mapping and texturing the gameworld.

 

[Lord Shitzu]

First time posting, but I'm a loooooooooong time lurker.

Also, interesting side note. It takes more points in explosives to disable a land mine then it does a nuke.

No it doesn't, you can disarm land mines regardless of skill, what differs is how much time you have to do so. With a higher skill you have more time before the mine goes off.

Alerting you to enemies in ways other than visually seeing them or hearing them is hand holding.

Funny, because one of the big arguments thrown around about what makes an RPG (and one I happen to agree with) is that your success is based on your characters skill, rather than the player's.

The compass dots that show you where enemies are, are a result of your Perception. The higher your Perception, the earlier the dots appear as you approach enemies. So, the dots use your character's ability at spotting enemies, rather than the player's, which may vary on your eyesight, visual settings, etc.

 

[tekhedd]

well considering how much bloom there is and how everything is brown, the compass adds the ability to actually notice your enemies from a distance before they shoot at you.

I wouldn't consider that a plus tho, just a workaround for the shit graphics and the "brown rubble is the new trees" attitude they seem to have had while mapping and texturing the gameworld.

The dreadful Bethesda-style monochromatic scenery is the one thing that really drives me nuts. Beautiful eye candy? Where?! The terrain shapes and models are nice, but the textures look like someone put them all in the same load of laundry and ran it on hot with bleach.

I'm actually not really disturbed by the handholding, because it doesn't seem over the top, it even seems fairly restrained if you consider that the game is targeted at modern console gamers.

But for me, the single worst thing so far is the first second of the intro movie, where they demonstrate that nobody in the entire company has ever seen a real vacuum tube warm up.

 

[Falloutvet]

hah you caught that too eh? although my tube radio does do that when a power tube gets loose in its socket.

 

[UncannyGarlic]

Alerting you to enemies in ways other than visually seeing them or hearing them is hand holding.

Funny, because one of the big arguments thrown around about what makes an RPG (and one I happen to agree with) is that your success is based on your characters skill, rather than the player's.

The compass dots that show you where enemies are, are a result of your Perception. The higher your Perception, the earlier the dots appear as you approach enemies. So, the dots use your character's ability at spotting enemies, rather than the player's, which may vary on your eyesight, visual settings, etc.

I'll rephrase that to be more precise, alerting the player to enemies in ways other than visually seeing them or hearing them in FPS gameplay is hand holding. Yep, radar is a form of hand holding but as I said before, if the game is designed around use of that apparatus it can add to the game, Fallout 3 is not and does not.

Too address your point well yes and no, it really comes down to FPS (entirely player skill based) and RPG (entirely character skill based) gameplay being incompatible. If you are supposed to be seeing and hearing what your character can see and hear and "be your character" (what Bethesda advocates) then why do you get a psychic radar? If you are simply looking from the viewpoint of your character but aren't supposed to be them then it makes some amount of sense (still iffy and still hand holding) but then FPS gameplay really doesn't fit (needs to be some sort of targeting system [lock-ons]).

 

[Atomic Cowboy]

Uh, what?

First quest in Fallout 3: Go to Megaton
First quest in Fallout: Go to Vault 15

Exactly how is Fallout giving you more direction?

Indeed. Vault 15 didn't (as far as I remember) contain any clues as to where to go next, you were supposed to discover Shady Sands on your way to Vault 15 which would then lead you south, which will then lead you further south, which eventually ends up leading you to Necropolis. Fallout 3 sends you directly to Megaton where people will tell you exactly where to go next.

Heh, that reminds me of when I got my brother to play Fallout. The guy's a bit of a spaz, and when Vault 15 didn't answer any questions (he didn't even bother stopping in Shady Sands) he got pissy and quit playing.

These kids nowadays. Not enough beatings, I reckon.

 

[Lord Shitzu]

Alerting you to enemies in ways other than visually seeing them or hearing them is hand holding.

Funny, because one of the big arguments thrown around about what makes an RPG (and one I happen to agree with) is that your success is based on your characters skill, rather than the player's.

The compass dots that show you where enemies are, are a result of your Perception. The higher your Perception, the earlier the dots appear as you approach enemies. So, the dots use your character's ability at spotting enemies, rather than the player's, which may vary on your eyesight, visual settings, etc.

I'll rephrase that to be more precise, alerting the player to enemies in ways other than visually seeing them or hearing them in FPS gameplay is hand holding. Yep, radar is a form of hand holding but as I said before, if the game is designed around use of that apparatus it can add to the game, Fallout 3 is not and does not.

Too address your point well yes and no, it really comes down to FPS (entirely player skill based) and RPG (entirely character skill based) gameplay being incompatible. If you are supposed to be seeing and hearing what your character can see and hear and "be your character" (what Bethesda advocates) then why do you get a psychic radar? If you are simply looking from the viewpoint of your character but aren't supposed to be them then it makes some amount of sense (still iffy and still hand holding) but then FPS gameplay really doesn't fit (needs to be some sort of targeting system [lock-ons]).

I'm not sure I get your first point. It's hand-holding in a FPS? But the game isn't supposed to be a FPS, it's supposed to be an RPG. We can argue about how much of an RPG it is, and how much of a shooter, but it's billed as an RPG. This feature enforces the RPG aspect, particularly since its effectiveness is tied directly to a main attribute (Perception).

Just because a similar feature could be considered hand-holding in a hardcore FPS (which is in itself debatable since a lot of FPS's have some sort of enemy radar), doesn't mean that it's a hand-holding feature in an RPG, particularly when it's tied to a character stat.

As for the second point, I can see what you're getting at, and if the idea is that first person lets you "be your character" and we're going to take that to extremes then yes, having a radar might not fit. But I don't think that such a stance makes sense, and I'm not sure it's what Bethesda means when they talk about favoring First Person either. They say it increases immersion, which to me means that you can see details of the world around your character, rather than reading descriptions, for example. I don't really think it means that it somehow makes you be your character and has to therefore limit what you see and do to what your character can see and do. If that were the case, a HUD with Health, AP, ammo, etc. certainly wouldn't make any sense

So yes, first person is just a view, and since you say that the gameplay should then support some kind of targetting/lock-on system: VATS is just that. It's certainly not perfect, and I'd much rather have a proper turn-based combat system, but it's way better than running and gunning. I've been playing the game and have been using it pretty much exclusively, firing maybe a total of 10 shots outside of VATS, because the FPS aspect is just completely lame, IMO.

 

[rcorporon]

I don't understand why Beth even has to go to such extents in their hand holding.

I rather enjoyed Morrowind, and the opening of that game was:

Character is kicked off a ship, told to find Cossades in Balmora, and given vague instructions on which way Balmora was (East of Seyda Neen).

You weren't told where Cossades lived, you weren't given a "quest compass" to show you how to find him, and you weren't given any clues about where to head next. You had to... gasp... EXPLORE.

I guess MW didn't sell well enough, so they had to dumb it down for Oblivion, which was a shame.

Hopefully (but not likely) they'll return to their Daggerfall / Morrowind roots with TESV and FO4, and get rid of all the hand-holding that goes on.

 

[UncannyGarlic]

I'm not sure I get your first point. It's hand-holding in a FPS? But the game isn't supposed to be a FPS, it's supposed to be an RPG. We can argue about how much of an RPG it is, and how much of a shooter, but it's billed as an RPG. This feature enforces the RPG aspect, particularly since its effectiveness is tied directly to a main attribute (Perception).

It's a FPS-ARPG hybrid and thus, yes, it is hand holding. I guess it reinforces RPG aspects but it does so by tying those aspects to handholding devices.

Just because a similar feature could be considered hand-holding in a hardcore FPS (which is in itself debatable since a lot of FPS's have some sort of enemy radar), doesn't mean that it's a hand-holding feature in an RPG, particularly when it's tied to a character stat.

Wow, it's almost like you didn't read my posts where I said:

That said, if the game is designed around use of something like a radar or the compass then it can add some good, strategic gameplay, but I have seen no evidence of this in Fallout 3.

Yep, radar is a form of hand holding but as I said before, if the game is designed around use of that apparatus it can add to the game, Fallout 3 is not and does not.

Though I'll add that I'm talking about them not designing combat around it as they did design their quest system around it.

That said, many FPSes (at least used to) only provide radar for online play, many times it only shows allies and enemies that you and/or your allies can see, and sometimes not even then (Half-Life). Some radar only shows people on it, some shows people and points of interest, and some shows people, locations of interest, and a minimap. How much the radar/minimap shows you determines how much the game is holding your hand. It's a much different experience not knowing when you are going to come accross an enemy and when you go into it blind.

As for the second point, I can see what you're getting at, and if the idea is that first person lets you "be your character" and we're going to take that to extremes then yes, having a radar might not fit. But I don't think that such a stance makes sense, and I'm not sure it's what Bethesda means when they talk about favoring First Person either. They say it increases immersion, which to me means that you can see details of the world around your character, rather than reading descriptions, for example. I don't really think it means that it somehow makes you be your character and has to therefore limit what you see and do to what your character can see and do. If that were the case, a HUD with Health, AP, ammo, etc. certainly wouldn't make any sense

They talk alot about "being your character" and it's the reason that they have combat the way that they do, hell that's basically what they mean when they say immersion. It isn't about getting into the game as text is a far more intellectually stimulating and engaging method of immersion than visuals displayed on a two dimensional screen. Hell, it's the reason that the auto-blocking dictated by a blocking skill and hit chances were replaced with manual blocking and damage scaling. Also keep in mind that you can (or so they claim) see hidden enemies when you go into VATS so they could have easily not had the radar compass and required players to go into VATS if they were worried about being ambushed. Is it more work for the player? Sure. Will it frustrate some players some of the time? You bet. Will it add more tension to the game, having to worry about being ambushed when you feel like you're safe? Yep. Will it make the game more difficult (on ocassion) because of unforseen ambushes? Sure. They could have billed VATS as both an "aimed/called shot mode" (super shot mode) and as an increased observation mode (which it is, it's just outmoded by the radar).

So yes, first person is just a view, and since you say that the gameplay should then support some kind of targetting/lock-on system: VATS is just that. It's certainly not perfect, and I'd much rather have a proper turn-based combat system, but it's way better than running and gunning. I've been playing the game and have been using it pretty much exclusively, firing maybe a total of 10 shots outside of VATS, because the FPS aspect is just completely lame, IMO.

No, VATS is not even close. A targeting/lock-on system is something like GTA, guns in DMC, missile locks in a combat flight-sim, or ranged combat in many TPP hack and slash games. Also, by using a targeting system you can allow the player to focus more on things like movement, cover, controlling allies, using items, etc. Again, the focus is on maximizing player input but providing handholding mechanisms to help the people who aren't so good at, in this case, twitch gameplay (and there's also the handicaps which are bothersome for twich gameplay lovers).

 

[aenemic]

there are many games where you have a radar that actually looks like a radar, where you can see exactly where your enemies (and sometimes other objects) are. in Fallout 1+2 you could get something for your pip-boy which marked enemies on your map.

in Fallout 3 you can only see in which direction there is an enemy, not exactly where it is. which is perfectly fine by me, because if I have a highly perceptive character I consider it a part of his perceptiveness to be able to locate enemies from a distance or around a corner. I don't consider it hand-holding in any way.

as for other instances of hand-holding, there are several in this game. they are not as bad as in many other games though and so far I haven't been bothered by any of them. if you talk to someone and they tell you about a place, it gets marked on your map (just like in the previous games). you have a quest tracker, which is probably the biggest hand-holder here, and I could very well get by without it. but considering you often have to get down into the underground and can very rarely just run straight forward to your destination (as you pretty much always can in the previous games) things could get kinda frustrating without it. it's definitely not necessary though.

as for places of interest showing on your compass, this doesn't differ all that much from how it worked in the old games either. there, when you were travelling on the world map, you could see the green circle from far away and knew it was something to explore. works pretty much the same here. places don't get marked on your map before you get very close though, but in Fallout 1+2 the green circle stays on your map and you can travel there at a later point without having to find it again.

the hand-holding I don't like is in the dialogue. I'm perfectly fine with it saying what ability or skill giving you the different dialogue options (because it's pretty obvious anyway and not showing it wouldn't really change anything). and showing me when I lie is ok because I know already I'm gonna tell a lie. if I say I've completed a quest I haven't completed, I know I'm lying. however, the speech skill check bothers me. I don't want to know my chances of succeeding with the speech skill. this goes for all other instances when the game tells me how much skill I need to do something, for example when desarming the nuke, hacking computers and picking locks.

 

[Lord Shitzu]

the hand-holding I don't like is in the dialogue. I'm perfectly fine with it saying what ability or skill giving you the different dialogue options (because it's pretty obvious anyway and not showing it wouldn't really change anything). and showing me when I lie is ok because I know already I'm gonna tell a lie. if I say I've completed a quest I haven't completed, I know I'm lying. however, the speech skill check bothers me. I don't want to know my chances of succeeding with the speech skill. this goes for all other instances when the game tells me how much skill I need to do something, for example when desarming the nuke, hacking computers and picking locks.

Yeah, I agree with that, that's one bit of "hand-holding" that annoys me. And I still think the radar is fine as an extension of player perception.