Do you know when the Fallout world diverged from our own? The answer will surprise you!

Discussion in 'General Fallout Discussion' started by Risewild, Feb 21, 2019.

  1. FDO

    FDO It Wandered In From the Wastes

    Jul 4, 2018
    If something has ceased to exist, it doesn't mean it didn't affect anything, I didn't mean to imply that.
    Like you said, the brotherhood's ancestors were a bunch of deserters from the US military, and in itself it isn't a problem.
    Because the brotherhood completly started over, they didn't hold on to pre war america or to the fact of being americans, which they can't be since there is no more america. They don't even speak about it, they don't care.

    Take a other example with the vaults, still speaking only of Fallout1/2 here. Some communities were directly started by former vault dwellers, some who don't seem to have kept much ties to their vaults, like the various groups from vault 15, and at least one who did, vault city.
    Do anyone in these groups even mention america or anything that hint at giving a damn about what they might have heard/learned from pre-war sources? No, people don't know or care about such former and foreign concepts anymore in the wastes, they replaced them. Sure, in many cases they only re-invented the same old humans habits, good or bad because that's how life goes but they still started anew, begin again and all that.
    Hell even the vault 13 dwellers don't pipe a word about being 'americans'(or insert any real world modern nationality), or how their neighbor is a 'communist' sympatizer.

    Compare to Vegas, or bethesda 3 for the sake of mentioning it, where vault dwellers were apparently still afraid of communists spies, name calling that between themself long after the bombs, maybe even generations after, and most wastelanders who seem to grasp what america, chineses and US meant, when they didn't have a long research history with the subject, apparently.

    One thing I can give to the enclave of Fallout 2, it's that at least they do seem aliens and foreign to the wastes, in this game.
    • [Rad] [Rad] x 2
  2. Squadcar

    Squadcar Vault Senior Citizen

    Jun 1, 2018
    I'm mostly done with this but I will say I don't remember vault dwellers in NV being scared of communist neighbors. The only thing mentioning communism that wasn't a pre-war poster or book that I can immediately think of is No-Bark mentioning gibberish about Lenin and the moon.
  3. Black Angel

    Black Angel Grand Inquisitor of the Ordo Hereticus

    Mar 21, 2016
    Just my assumption, but aside from No-Bark I think he specifically referred to Old World Blues. I remembered during one of the side-quests there, most probably involving the Stealth Suit, the cyber-dogs are trained to sniff out Communists.....or something.
  4. FDO

    FDO It Wandered In From the Wastes

    Jul 4, 2018
    Don't worry about it, it seem to be a personal obsession of mine. Even the pre-war posters and numerous 200 years old computers still working are too much if you ask me. However I can think of more than that.

    Actually I almost can forgive OWB on that, given that the characters are pre-war scientists, they have this excuse at least. But deep down, I can't really forgive these cliche pedantics brains for being there in the first place, so I don't.

    What I was specifically thinking that I remember bothering me or worst:
    Vault 19, the blue and the red often mention how everyone else must be communists.
    Vault 11, at least one of the last candidates to the sacrifice/overseer post is said to be a communist sympatizer, in computer logs and posters/grafitis since it basically required hate to get someone 'elected' in this vault.
    The NCR and other characters talking about it like a emulation of pre war america.
    And, well there is more that aren't big things by themself, but hint that pretty much most people apparently know what all that was, you know, america, communists, so on...
    The memory is just a little fuzzy, but I know I didn't dream them up.
  5. Black Angel

    Black Angel Grand Inquisitor of the Ordo Hereticus

    Mar 21, 2016
    They're vault dwellers. It makes sense that they actually have access to the history of past America. And from what I remembered, at least for Vault 11, they didn't make it clear if the generation from which the last candidates originated is from recent times. Could be they're from 50 years ago, 100, or 150, hell from the way the vault meant to work, they could be the exact same dwellers who first entered the vault back in 2077, driven to such desperation that they have no choice but to wipe themselves out before they could even procreate. Although, the skeletons littering the place might be a clue that they are indeed from recent times.

    Nah, you definitely need to replay the game again. The only clear example of the talking about NCR being 'exactly emulation of pre-War America' is from the intro cinematic narration by Ron Pearlman. Other than that, there are Mr. House (specifically referring to NCR being a 'democratic' society and that's exactly what will bring it down) and probably Caesar (specifically referring to (I'm paraphrasing here) NCR trying to emulate the not-so-distant past which brought about the Great War in the first place). Neither of them actually mentioned 'pre-War America' by name, and in case of Mr. House he actually lived the time to actually remember what pre-War America looks like and obviously what communism is, but I don't remember him mentioning the latter at all.
  6. FDO

    FDO It Wandered In From the Wastes

    Jul 4, 2018
    Yep, so did vault 8, 13 and 15, and yet none of their dwellers or descendants seen in the first 2 games felt the need to hold on to specific pre-war ideologies or prejudices.
    Regarding the timeline, I think vault 19 is unclear, but I would say vault 11 had it's circus going on for a while before the last election. I can remember a speech from one of the candidates, or maybe one of the previous martyr, saying something like that when speaking of researching history, including the vault history, to try to understand how their vault could have kept at sacrificing it's people for so long.
    My guess would be at least a few generations, if not more.

    Replay, again... Now I start to hear Vera Keyes voice. You know what, you are right, I am off to begin Vegas again. I am again at a temporary inspiration dead end on my mod anyway.
  7. Black Angel

    Black Angel Grand Inquisitor of the Ordo Hereticus

    Mar 21, 2016
    Because they're an established society, especially Vault 8 (Vault City) and Vault 15 (Shady Sands/NCR), and as you can see and feel from them they have their own problems to deal with at present times, instead of talking and discussing about history of pre-War America. Meanwhile, the 'denizens' of Vault 11 and Vault 19 are nothing but echoes from the past, and even then I actually don't remember any part about it mentioning anything about communism and other pre-war stuff other than usual history or those related to social experiment. I guess I really need to replay the game, too.
    Also, I still don't see what part of New Vegas that felt the need to hold on to specific pre-war ideologies and prejudices, except to send a message of 'Letting Go'. I can understand when we discuss it in that terms, but when you specifically mentioned how New Vegas screamed "Communists!" as blatant as Fallout 3 did, I just don't see it, other than No-Bark and that one part of Old World Blues.

    Also, I checked the wiki for Vault 19 holodisks and contrary to your statement that, "the blue and the red often mention how everyone else must be communists." there are no mention of communists/communism at all. Though, perhaps the list is incomplete and I do INDEED need to replay the game.
  8. FDO

    FDO It Wandered In From the Wastes

    Jul 4, 2018
    I might have a little deformed view or memories from having tried bethesda 3 recently. I just restarted Vegas. Crazy how even the tutorial is better than anything in bethesda's spinoff.

    I will be taking notes and quotes to prove myself right or wrong. Though for the records, I wrote poorly as I never meant that Vegas scream communist and america constantly, but when it does, it feel like a big change in style from Fallout 1 and 2.

    Oh, and about vault 13, they didn't have pre-war ideas references even before leaving the vault.
    Oh, and Victor has a america flag right on it's shack's front.
  9. Black Angel

    Black Angel Grand Inquisitor of the Ordo Hereticus

    Mar 21, 2016
    Does ANYONE in New Vegas showed these, other than NCR which tried to emulate the old-world values of democracy, and inevitably with it all the bad(s) which leads to the Great War in the first place, which is also the point of 'Letting Go'? And also Mr. House, even though we can argue that how far he managed to advance society almost single-handedly, either thanks to or despite of it?

    Victor is a crony of Mr. House. Other than that, we can argue the shack he lived in is an abandoned shack untouched by everyone else, and he happens to settle in it because it's on the edge of the town and not infested by mantis like the abandoned school does.
  10. FDO

    FDO It Wandered In From the Wastes

    Jul 4, 2018
    Well yeah, I am pretty sure of it. Give me some time, I am only on the road to Nipton for now. So far nothing particular to report, except maybe Trudy who apparently know what roman soldiers were.
    'They dressed up like roman soldiers...' Speaking of the legion, which she never encountered so it seem quite like the historic statement.

    What I argue is simply that this flag shoudn't be there at all, however even I know this particular point was just nickpiting for fun, given that nobody in Goodsprings mention it.
    Don't want to get ahead of myself again, so give me some time to recollect meaningful stuffs.
  11. Black Angel

    Black Angel Grand Inquisitor of the Ordo Hereticus

    Mar 21, 2016
    From what I remembered, she mentions it because 'that's what she heard', not that she know history or anything. Words goes around, even Easy Pete mentioned the semantic of spelling Caesar as 'Kaezar' or something along those lines, and he explicitly stated 'that's what I heard'.
  12. FDO

    FDO It Wandered In From the Wastes

    Jul 4, 2018
    Ok. Benny is dead and I am taking a break from the Mohave, going to OWB before my level get too high.
    Hopefully I remember how to speedrun this DLC, though since I have time these days I might try to not go as fast than the last time.

    A few thoughts that came to me so far.
    Vegas IS mostly on par with the original games regarding the pre-war world, my previous memories were definetly tainted by my brief affair with bethesda 3.
    However I noticed a few oddities that sure stand out when they happen. Minors stuff for now, certainly, but I wanted to write them down in case they slip my mind later.
    It's not a long list for now, my rambling is taking some text though.

    1,Was already mentionned I know, but why, how and where would No Bark have caught the fear of commies ghosts? Yeah, he is a loony but it doesn't change that his commies lines hurt my hears and eyes, and it doesn't explain why he should be obsessed on such a distant past topic.
    2,Cliff Briscoe has a unusual knowledge of Robco history or so it seem, when speaking of his rocket souvenirs he can tell you that the company used to hand them to kids, until said kids started to drink the radioactive liquid inside. And that, I quote, 'these were hard time for Robco'...
    Ok he could have read all that somewhere while scavenging and just quote it dumbly, but why can't we at least make him say it then, and express a welcome foreign mind to such a distant thing, one way or another?
    3, Veronica, after looking at Elijah's old comm computer in 'I could make you care' quest. She tell you about a pulse gun developped to counter power armors possibly developped by the chineses... Just like that. Yeah, she is a brotherhood of steel scribe, but she speak like if the courier can necessarly understand what she mean, and what the hell, why would she understand herself what pre-war definitions like chineses meant ? BOS is supposed to focus on technology, not to have access to enough historical archives to make sense of the past better than anyone else.

    That's it so far I think, but I still have plenty to do and I had reminiscences of more important things further down the line, will get to those once I replayed them though, if it still interest anyone but me.
    Didn't go back to vault 11 yet either.

    Ah, to say a good thing, the way the kings are done is perfect. They didn't happen on a golden information database telling them all about Elvis, they don't even know his name, they just found a old building and a few clothes and discs, then reached the conclusion it was all about a religious figure or such.
    That's how any pre-war subjects should be handled when brought in, misunderstood, lacking in information and irrelevant.
  13. Black Angel

    Black Angel Grand Inquisitor of the Ordo Hereticus

    Mar 21, 2016
    I take a glance at his dialogue on wiki and, 'apparently' he only spoke the word 'commie' twice. I said 'apparently' because I don't know if he's actually THAT obsessed with it and relevant 'distant past topic' as you make it out to be, which I'd assume he would've spoke the word 'commie' more than twice if it's the case, unless you repeat Courier's dialogue option which leads to relevant answers.

    As far as I know, he didn't even go scavenging the stuff 'somewhere'. The excess amount of rocket souvenirs were dumped just like that in Novac's gift shop after the outrage related to the souvenirs, and I'd assume Briscoe put two and two together when he stumbled upon an information related to those souvenirs somewhere nearby, either a piece of newspaper or a message accompanying the trashed souvenirs.

    Now this is just nitpicking, don't you think? Besides, just because the BoS are strictly obsessed with technology, doesn't mean they have literally zero knowledge of history, and them having 'not enough' access to historical archives is just simply out of character for a cult who hoard technology, whatever it is, *including* but *not limited* to computers and terminals, which *may* or *may not* contain historical archives.
  14. FDO

    FDO It Wandered In From the Wastes

    Jul 4, 2018
    It's not that he say commie in all his lines, it's that he say it.
    'People say there are ghouls over there but I know the truth. It's commies ghosts haunting the place...'
    Sorry it's not the exact quote but it's right before he speak of Lenine's face on the moon.
    Then there is at least one other commie somewhere in his dialog indeed.
    I did say there were only minor things for now, it doesn't kill the game by far and most people don't stop on it, as they should. Can't help it if it's not so smooth on me and make me tick a bit.
    If Nobark's commies were only in the wild wasteland trait, I woudn't ask myself why this seem to have stuck in his head, admitting he did read on commies and Lenine somewhere. But it's not a wild wasteland content.

    I meant reading on Robco's misadventures while scavenging for other things, not scavenging for the rockets. Still the way he tell the story sound, don't know how to say, too 'accurate', too familiar...
    It sound like a voice acting thing maybe, the actor sort of speaking like if he had read the story in his morning paper, and the 'these were hard times for Robco' definitly is too much, even without voice acting.
    Again, it's nothing terribly important by itself.

    There is a difference between zero knowledge of history, and a too familiar tone when it is spoken of, especially in a world like Fallout. I give you that the BOS likely have access to some pre-war history, but should they really understand it or speak of it like if they are? And like if outsiders necessarly understand as well?
    A smoother line on me would have been, 'Some pre-war countries were developping power armors according to some old archives, and here they were trying a pulse gun to counter them...'
    Something similar that remain vague enough.

    Anyway, I am not trying to drive you crazy, thanks for indulging me on this, Black Angel. You are obviously less bothered by these details than I am, and even I do see your points.
  15. Risewild

    Risewild Venerable Relic of the Wastes
    Modder Orderite

    Jun 14, 2014
    Thanks guys, for derailing this thread so much :lmao:.

    Not that I mind, this thread would be dead several posts ago, otherwise. But the discussion you guys are having seems like it would benefit from it's own thread.

    Specially because it has nothing to do with the original thread and because it would probably get more active (with more people participating on it), if it had a real thread for it.

    I doubt many people are interested in checking new posts on a thread that is named "Do you know when the Fallout world diverged from our own? The answer will surprise you!". Specially after I already revealed the answer.
  16. FDO

    FDO It Wandered In From the Wastes

    Jul 4, 2018
    Very welcome. Nothing is like a clickbait to derail. Anyway, not sure this particular topic interest much people, Black Angel is probably being nice, trying to get me to let go of this.
    But I might try to express my thoughts better in a new thread if I feel I can after finishing my playthrough.
  17. FDO

    FDO It Wandered In From the Wastes

    Jul 4, 2018
    Ah, ah! I were right about vault 11!

    The exact time may not be accurate but it is very clear that severals generations passed between the vault entrance and the last election. This is all in Gus Olson speech, the one you get the overseer password from.
    The corruption affecting the elections has been going on for decades at least, and before the corruption there were 'simpler times' which also lasted a while for choosing the unlucky bastards.
    In that context, the communist sympatizer drill is very bad. If we admit that america's ennemies still were communists during the great war, which remain a unnecessary and pointless detail to know regardless of anything else.

    You are right about mr House(I think, or I had other things in mind while speaking with him but I think I would remember) but you are partially wrong about the rest. The intro doesn't make exact reference to a exact emulation of pre-war america, Edward Sallow does.

    Now let me go back to Veronica and the chineses. Aside from her line, the courier in person behave like a fucking time traveler because we can just move on the conversation without even a choice to express a foreign mind on the subject.
    And if it seem minor, then we have another case of this at the Boomer's Nelis base.
    During the boomer's history lesson with Pete, the courier know what american's air force was to the point of noticing that howitzers shoudn't be in one of their bases... I had a big 'what the fuck' moment there.
    And, and, there was something else like that but it slipped my mind for now it seem.

    Joshua Graham apparently know what american's child scouts were.
    Christine speak like Veronica about chineses, about 'chineses americans', in her recording from Y-17 in OWB.

    Notice I am trying hard not to nickpit or I could ramble on mormons from HH, and other OWB content related to Ulysses.
    But I am saving Ulysses's related things for after playing LR.

    I think I am almost done with the Mohave's side content that I like to do, just went into Dead Money that I saved until being near the end since it's my favorite Fallout content after Fallout 1. Then I will do Lonesome Road and complete the main quests so I am not done with my whinning, unless I get tired of it, it's always possible.

    Badaway I didn't go to vault 19, like most powder gangers content, I find that the game provide too few incentives to care about the gangers after the beginning so it's unlikely I will make the effort this time.
  18. Black Angel

    Black Angel Grand Inquisitor of the Ordo Hereticus

    Mar 21, 2016
    I think we completely forgot one tiny detail that existed ever since of Fallout 1 here: the vaults are completely isolated environment. If you and your family entered a bunker, and is forced to live there for the remainders of your lives, and no signs of ever being able to get out of it for generations, does it mind-boggling for you to pass down whatever you know to your children and then their children? Is it really THAT bad that vaults are able to somehow completely or partially retain their knowledge of history, and/or even cultural identity and ideology for generations considering they're in complete isolation?

    Think about it. Yeah, in Fallout 1 they don't talk about this thing at all, but that's because there's a more urgent and pressing concern about their current survival. If you we're to play Fallout during a time period of 'peace', where we get to see the vault dwellers grow up in their solitary confinement, will it be mindboggling for you when phrases like 'communism' pop-ups here and there?

    "dedicated to old-world values of democracy and the rule of law." If that doesn't implies exact reference to exact emulation of pre-War America, then I don't know what is. Perhaps I missed something here because I vaguely remembering details of pre-War America not really being all about democracy and rule of law during the periods nearing the start of the Great War, but the fact that the intro referred to it as exactly 'old-world value' I'm pretty sure about what I'm saying.

    I'm also going to add here in regards to Vault 11 knowing about communism. If Shady Sands, which was established by a subgroup of Vault 15's dwellers, somehow able to grow into New California Republic who tried to emulate what's referred to as 'old-world values of democracy and the rule of law', even though considering they abandoned the vault long, long before Vault 11 is abandoned, why is it mind-boggling that another vault completely isolated for generations to somehow remember historical details such as 'communism'?

    I think this is just how role-playing games works in general. While many RPGs let you play a blank slate characters such as the Vault Dweller and the Courier, they're not ACTUALLY blank slate because you begin playing the game when the characters are more or less 'matured' enough by that time, cause otherwise you'll begin a playthrough literally with the character as a baby and we know how that turns out, don't we? This means there are actual historical and background details of the characters that are more or less decided by the developers, such as the Vault Dweller being from Vault 13 which happened to have water problem, or the Courier having spend his/her life delivering stuff from place to place up until the point where he draw the 'lucky' straw and happened to carry precisely the object sought by Mr. House and Benny, known as the Platinum Chip.
    And this is where the part of the game of role-playing comes in: developers can sprinkle dialogue options here and there for players to choose IF they want to further elaborate their own character background. One prominent example I can think of in case of Fallout 1's Vault Dweller is how I can elaborate my character's background as a scientist by choosing that dialogue option with the farmer in Shady Sands where VD told the farmer to use crop rotation when planting and harvesting the crops. Meanwhile, New Vegas is filled to the brim with this opportunity. Other than what you mentioned above, the Courier can either point out that he/she didn't know what a fish is; OR with enough INT the Courier can show that he/she knows what a fish is when talking to Cass; and then if you have Lady Killer perk, the Courier can imply that he had sex and impregnated a woman in Montana around 18 years prior when talking to the Lonesome Drifter. For full list of this background details, you can read it here

    BUT! The *most* important part of all this, is that you CAN choose those dialogue options.... or *NOT*. The very fact that these dialogue options existed at all *DOESN'T* matter, UNTIL you ACTUALLY CHOOSE IT. This is the beauty of role-playing games, and I have to say the more I think about it the more I'm confused as to why you keep fuzzing about these tiny details.

    Randall Clark mentioned in one of his terminal entries where he encountered a group of 24 children. The fact that they're there at all, with the youngest maybe 8 and the oldest between 13-14 implies that they're boys and girls scouts. Which in turn imply that Zion is one of the place where these child scouts visit for a trip. For all we know, Joshua Graham could somehow somewhere encountered a piece of information that alluded to this detail about child scouts, could be a brochure or a poster somewhere in Zion.

    As for Christine speaking about Chinese Americans, she spoke of them in context 'Chinese-American internment camp' and the place she referred to is called 'Little Yangtze'. I don't know about you, but once again, for all we know Christine might have remembered a tiny detail of her study with the BoS, who highly likely kept access to historical archives, and deduced from the fact that the camp is called 'Little Yangtze' it must have been an interment camp where they experimented on Chinese. Or perhaps she called it precisely 'Chinese-American' because she stumbles upon a piece of information somewhere in that camp or somewhere in the Big MT where the patients are precisely called Chinese-American.
  19. FDO

    FDO It Wandered In From the Wastes

    Jul 4, 2018
    But some things are silly enough to not make sense. How someone who was born in a isolated vault generations after the bombs can be a 'communist' sympatizer? Were the others claiming him to have a private secret satellite to communicate with imaginary active communist cells outside the vault? Or a direct line to Moscow's vault where the evil communists are still plotting to conquer the world, maybe?
    How can it be a valid argument to hate someone in the context they are in?

    Notice I didn't mention other old world references such as the justice bloc and their poster with a baseball player saying to play for the winning team for instance. Because it's not alien to such a environment, it still make sense somehow, even if it's silly too.

    "dedicated to old-world values of democracy and the rule of law." Is the key phrase indeed, it doesn't say nor mean "dedicated to recreate pre-war america". Democracy and rule of law aren't american's exclusive, in both successes and failures. Most of what I believe we still call the modern western world, which isn't limited to the US, share the same successes, failures and mind set. In depth, if sometimes not in form. What you seem to see as typically american in most of Fallout, I see it as typically 'modern west'.

    "dedicated to old-world values of democracy and the rule of law." Could even be applied to a society taking inspiration from old greek's democracies in the antiquity, or even a 'new roman republic of the wastes'.

    You will get no argument from me on this, mostly. I was and still am a adventure gamer before any other type of game, and therefore prefer when characters have a actual personality and history of their own.
    What I am arguing is that Fallout is a post apocalypse world, as in the world was reset, and so the post apocalypse characters of this world should not grasp most of pre-war ideologies or definitions, if any.
    Yes, this apply to groups like vault dwellers and BOS-like style of organization as well, because it's one thing to read about some things, it's a other to grasp them and refer to it as if you do.

    Some pre-war characters can refer to it, but only if they don't expect a post-war character to really grasp the full picture as if they had actually been there to see it, and therefore not go into accurate details that became irrelevant with the bombs. I think mr House does it pretty well, and Dean Domino too in a different style.

    It might seem easy to us, in the age and context we live in to put 2 and 2 together and grasp things we see, experience or hear about often enough in still relevant aspects of the modern world. I don't believe it should be that easy for characters of a Fallout world.
    Christine should speak of pre-war prisonners or the like, not of chinese americans as if it meant something to her in a practical sense.

    To exorcise them from my head maybe, or reconcile what I perceive as a different approach between Fallout 1 and New Vegas.
    I too am confused as to why I can't just look the other way, so to speak. I can call bethesda's fan fictions, well, bethesda's fan fictions, then plug my hears and sing 'LA LA LA' without a problem and without wasting too much time on writting walls of text about it, I always could.
    But the current subject of discussion don't want to be so easily disregarded in my mind, for some reason.
    Don't think your input isn't appreciated, even if I keep whinning.
  20. Risewild

    Risewild Venerable Relic of the Wastes
    Modder Orderite

    Jun 14, 2014
    Maybe history books and history holotapes? Vault Dwellers go to school. :bow: