Emil Pagiarulo on quest structures & NPCs in Fallout 3

[13pm]

Re: Emil Pagiarulo on quest structures & NPCs in Fallout

Yip, that's one of the most worrying parts. I want to be able to screw myself if I make a bad call because hey, that's life. I don't need Emil and Todd holding my hand through the game.

Don't forget they're doing a game for console kiddies. Kiddies will cry if they screw themselves.

 

[TheVaultKeeper]

In Fallout 3, we're also making a much greater effort to handle the player killing NPCs, and there are very few unkillable characters.

Meh. Why are there any unkillable characters?

Actually there was that in both FO1 and FO2 so it's no big thing if it's just implementet the right way. Or are you one of those people who desperately wanted to kill the village elder?

 

[shihonage]

The point about unkillable NPCs (including children) is not whether "OMG U WANTZ 2 B CHILD KILLAR !". That's a cheap spin put on by Bethesda, as to be expected.

The point is that the _possibility_ should be there. Otherwise the integrity of the world flies out the window, and with it the immersion factor.

Whenever I stumble into an invisible and completely technically unrequired wall in a game, I quit and erase it because it means that it will keep on insulting my intelligence and treating me like a child. Yeah, I erase a lot of games Fallout wasn't one of them.

 

[Pender]

FONT?

Quick question:

I love the font used in the Very stylish new Anniversary banner. Is it custom-made or can you please share the name/a link? I'm talking about the text "Fallout's 10th Anniversary"... top banner, main page.

Peace in the Wasteland.

 

[HoKa]

The point about unkillable NPCs (including children) is not whether "OMG U WANTZ 2 B CHILD KILLAR !". That's a cheap spin put on by Bethesda, as to be expected.

The point is that the _possibility_ should be there. Otherwise the integrity of the world flies out the window, and with it the immersion factor.

Whenever I stumble into an invisible and completely technically unrequired wall in a game, I quit and erase it because it means that it will keep on insulting my intelligence and treating me like a child. Yeah, I erase a lot of games Fallout wasn't one of them.

And there weren't any 'invisible walls' in Fallout? Give me a break.

 

[shihonage]

And there weren't any 'invisible walls' in Fallout? Give me a break.

There are invisible walls that are necessary for a game to function without making development overcomplicated. There are also arbitrary invisible walls which aren't required by the technology, but are simply there because of bad design decisions. An example of the former would be, say, the grid around the cities in G-Police. An example of the latter would be unkillable children in a Fallout game.

The only real invisible wall I saw in Fallout was the unkillable Overseer (for most of the game), but there was a plausible explanation provided as to why you couldn't hit him. So while that limitation was imposed, the developers didn't insult our intelligence by just making him walk around, unkillable. Instead, he was holing up in this overhead post with a minigun.

If Bethesda wants to make the children unkillable, they have to hide them all in places where the player either can't reach them directly or his weapons are somehow malfunctioning. However, that is really a giant stretch that wouldn't fit into the game.

 

[TheVaultKeeper]

The only real invisible wall I saw in Fallout was the unkillable Overseer

Oh come on, give us a break. It is a game for heaven's sake, not a parallel universe simulator.

 

[shihonage]

Dude... don't snip out a piece of someone's post out of context just for the sake of stirring an argument out of thin air. If you want to argue that unkillable children are a valid design choice, then go ahead and do that, because that is actually pertinent to what I said earlier.

 

[El_Smacko]

Re: Emil Pagiarulo on quest structures & NPCs in Fallout

They never will. And thus, in Fallout 3 you'll always know what you did wrong, everything will be laid out to you and you'll be hand-walked, because otherwise you'd be distracted from the real fun, that of blowing-up mutants.

I think you might be making mountains of molehills here. While I have many and multiplying reservations about Fallout 3, I do dislike how everything said about the game seems to be turned into a negative. Fallout is a great game, but it's not perfect. I for one would appreciate a little bit more in the way of feedback and direction in some instances. Not a blazing obvious message, but just a bit of dialoge to explain why Im being attacked, or a quest description (or dialogue archive) in my PipBoy so I can remember the details of a quest without taking notes.

Not saying your wrong, just that all he said was there would be feedback for screwing up a quest, and your jumping to the conclusion i'ts something negative. Relax, just a little bit, you'll live longer (and get to play Fallout 4!).


Off topic, but this has been bugging me:

Don't forget they're doing a game for console kiddies. Kiddies will cry if they screw themselves.

As a console gamer and Halo enthusiast (shock!) Please, by all means, shut the hell up about the console kiddies crap. Sure making a dumber simpler game to appease a wider audience isn't a good thing, but please stop assuming console gamers=inbred retarded children.

Just because I enjoy reflex based action games as much as turn based RPGs doesn't mean I'm an idiot, it just means I enjoy a variety of gaming experiences. And just because I enjoy consoles doesn't mean I don't know how to work a computer, it means I prefer the simplicity of knowing my game will work with my machine, and that I prefer a controller designed for gaming to a device designed for typing.

 

[Paladin Solo]

Re: Emil Pagiarulo on quest structures & NPCs in Fallout

I think you might be making mountains of molehills here. While I have many and multiplying reservations about Fallout 3, I do dislike how everything said about the game seems to be turned into a negative.

1) People are entitled to hate or like the game.
2) There have been things that members of this community have found positive about Fallout 3, even though, it's still shaky to me, personally, especially after I felt betrayed and lied to after Oblivion.
3) The strong negativity has reasons. People with rational points don't just pull shit out of their asses and say "this stinks."

Fallout is a great game, but it's not perfect.

No one said it is, but it is a canon, although Bethesda doesn't care.

I for one would appreciate a little bit more in the way of feedback and direction in some instances. Not a blazing obvious message, but just a bit of dialoge to explain why Im being attacked, or a quest description (or dialogue archive) in my PipBoy so I can remember the details of a quest without taking notes.

Not saying your wrong, just that all he said was there would be feedback for screwing up a quest, and your jumping to the conclusion i'ts something negative. Relax, just a little bit, you'll live longer.

That's different from a magical box popping up and saying "guess what? You just killed a quest-giver. You're fucked. Kthxbai."

Relax too much, and you won't live longer. You'll get fat, bald, pale, and sickly.

and get to play Fallout 4!

Now who's jumping to conclusions?

*snip console-kiddies snip*

How does that justify raping the Fallout franchise? If someone bought the rights to Halo and then turned it into an isometric turn-based RPG I wouldn't go their fan forums and say "I'm glad this is happening because I like games that make you think and are isometric turn-based." and expect my point to carry any validity.

Then again, I suppose you aren't trying to justify it.

 

[El_Smacko]

Re: Emil Pagiarulo on quest structures & NPCs in Fallout

1) People are entitled to hate or like the game.
2) There have been things that members of this community have found positive about Fallout 3, even though, it's still shaky to me, personally, especially after I felt betrayed and lied to after Oblivion.
3) The strong negativity has reasons. People with rational points don't just pull shit out of their asses and say "this stinks."

True, and I know there have been positive things said about the game. I just am slightly annoyed by how turns of phrase and vague hints are turned into worst case scenario rants by some users.

Fallout is a great game, but it's not perfect.

No one said it is, but it is a canon, although Bethesda doesn't care.

Do you mean it has an established canon?

Well yah, it does, and that is one of my many reservations. I am also somtimes annoyed by how some people seem to think Fallout was perfect and nothing should be changed whatsoever. It's not really many members here who do, but some come across that way and it propegates the "expansion for Fallout 2" stereotype, which is wrong. Fallout 2 had inferior setting, fans want an expansion to the origional. [/sarcasm, obviously]

That's different from a magical box popping up and saying "guess what? You just killed a quest-giver. You're fucked. Kthxbai."

No one said that's what would happen, though.

Relax too much, and you won't live longer. You'll get fat, bald, pale, and sickly.

Same thing happens when you sit around all day either playing Fallout or bitching about how much Fallout 3 will suck. So lets not argue over a turn of phrase, mmkay?

*snip console-kiddies snip*

How does that justify raping the Fallout franchise? If someone bought the rights to Halo and then turned it into an isometric turn-based RPG I wouldn't go their fan forums and say "I'm glad this is happening because I like games that make you think and are isometric turn-based." and expect my point to carry any validity.

Then again, I suppose you aren't trying to justify it.

No, I'm not. I'm just sick of 12 year old ADHD console gamer stereotypes.

 

[Paladin Solo]

Re: Emil Pagiarulo on quest structures & NPCs in Fallout

True, and I know there have been positive things said about the game. I just am slightly annoyed by how turns of phrase and vague hints are turned into worst case scenario rants by some users.

Well, considering Bethesda's history of lies and ignorance, you'll have to understand why many fans are highly sceptical.

Do you mean it has an established canon?

Well, Fallout 1 is canon. Fallout 2 is a sequel to that canon. Fallout Tactics, though hated by some, loved by others, is a spin-off of that canon. FOBOS, is just a hunk of shit that even console-kiddies dislike.

Then comes Bethesda who disregards anything they don't like even if it is canon just because they can. If you want to change what is canon, you're not a fan, you're an enthusiast and/or money-loving capitalist scum.

Well yah, it does, and that is one of my many reservations. I am also somtimes annoyed by how some people seem to think Fallout was perfect and nothing should be changed whatsoever.

If Fallout is an established canon, as you say, why would we want to change it if we are fans of that canon? Someone may not like turn-based isometric games, but that doesn't mean it's something that should be changed because it's imperfect to that someone.

It's not really many members here who do, but some come across that way and it propegates the "expansion for Fallout 2" stereotype, which is wrong. Fallout 2 had inferior setting, fans want an expansion to the origional. [/sarcasm, obviously]

Wait, you're saying Fallout 2 should be ridiculed just like Fallout 3, a game which completely changes almost everything from the original Fallout except for story fundamentals and setting?

No one said that's what would happen, though.

Based on Bethesda's history of dumbing down of games, there's a reasonable chance that it will happen. It may not be as obvious as "you killed someone important, the world is locked in fucked-up-ed-ness, reload or live in it forever and ever and ever and ever.", but it may be feedback that is less 'immersive'. But Bethesda loves immershun! That's why they included the quest-compass!

Same thing happens when you sit around all day either playing Fallout or bitching about how much Fallout 3 will suck. So lets not argue over a turn of phrase, mmkay?

Which is exactly what I/we do? Coming from someone who took offense to generalisations, your argument just lost a lot of potential.

No, I'm not. I'm just sick of 12 year old ADHD console gamer stereotypes.

There's a reason why many games are getting more and more simpler, dumbed-down, shorter, and have emphases of graphics and carnage over story. Sure, those games are fun to play for a quick pick-me-up, but not when they're a sequel that betrays much, if not everything that is canon in the original. If you prefer those types of games, fine, but don't come here telling us to calm down just because we don't.

As for the console-kiddies remark, I wasn't aware that console-kiddies were people who just prefered simple games. I love a shoot-em-up just as much as the next guy, but I don't consider that a defining quality of a console-kiddie. I thought console-kiddies are console gamers who are just a bunch of clueless, obnoxious ignoramuses who are easily entertained, regardless of product, for a nominal fee, who considers a simple, eye-candy glorified, shoot-em-up the defining quality of the gaming industry. So I think you took offense to something that was not related to you, unless, you're a clueless, obnoxious ignoramus who is easily entertained, regardless of product, for a nominal fee, who considers a simple, eye-candy glorified, shoot-em-up the defining quality of the gaming industry?

 

[FeelTheRads]

(and get to play Fallout 4!)

I wasn't aware I was going to play Fallout 3, much less Fallout 4.

No, I'm not. I'm just sick of 12 year old ADHD console gamer stereotypes.

Throw out your console and it's done.

Seriously, though, this stereotype exists for a reason. It doesn't mean everyone who owns a console fits, but most do. So I really don't know what the fuss is about. It offends you? I'm not offended to be called a computer nerd.. but, well, it does sound better than console retard. Eheh.

and that I prefer a controller designed for gaming to a device designed for typing.

That was a dumb argument if I ever heard one.
You also have a mouse on the computer (which is not used for typing, yes?) and even though the keyboard is not designed for gaming, the games are designed for the keyboard, a detail which eludes the kiddies today used only with console ports on their PC.
So, yeah, try again.

 

[SuAside]

one might then wonder why mouse+kb combo gives far better controle in games that require fine touches (such a CS) than a gamepad...

might i remind you that nearly all console games have autoaim, where PC games routinely have that option disabled?

which device is superior, ya think?

 

[Edge386]

Yeah, take your gimped controller. I would love to pick up a game that is both Windows and XBox Live enabled to frag the shit out of console kiddies with surgical precision. Like fighting against insurgents "trying to find reverse on a soviet tank."

The only console shooter I enjoyed was Golden Eye and Perfect Dark. Every other game I've tried was ridiculous to control.

 

[Morbus]

Yeah, take your gimped controller. I would love to pick up a game that is both Windows and XBox Live enabled to frag the shit out of console kiddies with surgical precision. Like fighting against insurgents "trying to find reverse on a soviet tank."

The only console shooter I enjoyed was Golden Eye and Perfect Dark. Every other game I've tried was ridiculous to control.

Halo's PC version is a fine console FPS.

 

[Edge386]

Yeah, take your gimped controller. I would love to pick up a game that is both Windows and XBox Live enabled to frag the shit out of console kiddies with surgical precision. Like fighting against insurgents "trying to find reverse on a soviet tank."

The only console shooter I enjoyed was Golden Eye and Perfect Dark. Every other game I've tried was ridiculous to control.

Halo's PC version is a fine console FPS.

That's what I'm talking about. playing the PC version against the console version. I've played Halo on console and it wasn't as bad as other console FPS games I've played, but the PC version would be far superior to me.

As for quest structures and NPCs in F3 (getting back on topic) I still believe no matter how hard they try they just won't have the same passions and motivations to complete the task in the way that made the originals so great to play.

 

[xu]

Or are you one of those people who desperately wanted to kill the village elder?

Basically my first run in FO2 ended up pretty early as i tried to kick the shit out of that ugly village elder.