Enclave vs. Brotherhood

[the_move]

Try not at all. The Bible is the work of MCA. While not exactly a "Fallout developer", he did work on one town in Fallout 2, which I suppose makes him an authority.

Well, it sure looks done professionally.
Think it´s pretty ok, I'll take it.
So a cybernetic, power-armored, mutation!
Mmh, well I wonder what monstrosities will be up next
after the Master and this one.

 

[Roshambo]

Try not at all. The Bible is the work of MCA. While not exactly a "Fallout developer", he did work on one town in Fallout 2, which I suppose makes him an authority.

And it was the most un-Fallout location of the game, even by his words.

How is that for irony? Also...NCR's fleet of working cars!

 

[requiem_for_a_starfury]

On the other hand...

Experienced, battle forged veterans and a knowledge of the wastes - Isolation on the Oil Rig causes them to be rookies when fighting on the mainland, and they have none battle experience, only Navarro personnel does really

Where do you get the Brotherhood as battle forged veterans from? The only battles we know they might of fought were against the mutants and any Paladins who took part in those would be dead or geriatric by the time of the Enclave. The Brotherhood were just as isolated in their bunker as the Enclave were on the oil rig. Some of the Brotherhood might leave the bunker from time to time, but their general policy is non-confrontational isolation.

So, we might assume that if a War would errupt between the Brotherhood and the Enclave, Paladins would have the benefit of knowing the wastes well, and having the support of the locals.
Enclave, despite their technology and all, would be rendered helpless, and their morale broken upon entering the first destroyed city.

Also where do you get having support of the locals from, they might trade with the Brotherhood but I doubt they would support them. More likely the denizens of the wastes would stay well out of any confrontation, hoping that the Enclave and Brotherhood would destroy each other so that they could scavenge anything of worth afterwards. Also why would the Enclave's morale be broken upon entering a destroyed city? They knew there had been a war that everything was bombed to hell and back, so they would be expecting to see ruins and since they all grew up on the oil rig they wouldn't have an emotional attachment to the old world.

And after the first fight won by the Brothers... well... let me recall the myth of the 'indestructible' armored monster, the Mi-24 Hind, and Afghanistan...

Totally different circumstances, the Brotherhood wouldn't be expecting to meet a comparable foe, especially not one technologically more advanced than themselves, with air support. If they have any combat experience it would be against small groups of poorly armed untrained attackers, more likely they would enter the fray expecting to be invincible in their power armour, and get slaughtered.

Not to mention the motivation factor: The Enclave soldiers are fighting for a President that is clearly corrupt and probably not legally elected, and a nation that has been dead for a century.

But do the Enclave soldiers understand he's corrupt? They've grown up on the oil rig, probably trained from birth, they'll most likely be heavily indoctrinated. The Brotherhood's survival instincts wouldn't have time to kick in, the majority of them would be wiped out in the first few engagements.

I think the Enclave knew, that if a war was to be waged against the mainland, they would have no chance of winning. That's why they didnt want to draw attention to them (notice that you only find traces of their activity around? The onl places you acctually meet them in person, is the Navarro, vertibird trading spot and the execution site...)
And why they planned to use FEV to cleanse the lands. It would need little effort and supplies to perform the genocide...

They had only recently established Navarro, it was a beach head if you like. Would you of found Allied troops outside of Berlin a couple of months after D Day? No it took them nearly another year to get there. The Enclave planned to use FEV because they were fanatics, they wanted to cleanse the land, a virus would be far more efficient than a conventional campaign. With troops to wipe out those few immune to FEV or in protected isolation. It makes more sense to use a strategic weapon, especially if you're not troubled by morality.

Anyway that Frank Horrigan (LOL Frank Harrigan - Predator 2)

Wasn't Danny Glover's character Mike Harrigan in Predator 2? Anyway the reference is Clint Eastwood's character from 'In the Line of Fire'.

 

[Tagaziel]

I meant Paladins. I think that Maxson said it, but anyways, it was the Paladins who protected the Brotherhood. We do not know much about BoS' history since Fallout, but even if they are not the power they once were, they're still a formidable foe.

I mean, if the Pals are the protectors of the Brotherhood, they need to have experience.

After the Enclave slaughters the first ten villages people WILL resist (see IIWW)

Also, put yourself in the position of an Enclave soldier - a grunt, not an officer. You come in frsh from the Oil Rig, where everything was repaired, in excellent shape and all, where there were people, your friends, etc. Now, fresh from your home, you enter a desolate, burned out city, with skeletons still laying around. Even from behind the visor of the APA this still makes you depressant...

Vertibirds as an air support? I think Vs are far too fragile to perform these tasks, just look at the crashed Verti in Klamath. A possible engine failure (maybe a fuel leak, as the locals said "a ball of fire" (OSLT) will cost the Enclave a precious Vertibird, fuel, ammunition, 2 pilots and a squad of soldiers if there were any onboard.

To cleanse the lands of the mutants using convential warfare, it would take tens of years to complete, and would be extremely costly - count in food, water (extremely scarce in the wastes), ammunition, maintenace of Vs and APAs and guns etc., the occasional hotspot, mutant attack, deathclaws, old corrosive acids etc. It would be far too expensive...

On the other hand...

The virus is an excellent weapon - the FEV only needs to make contact with it's victim to cause mutation. The killer-FEV has the same specs.
The Enclave only needed to obtain a pure sample once, then it could be synthetised on board the oilrig. And, as president Richardson said, they could release it at the Oil Rig, and the air streams would carry it around the globe.
They planned to use it not because they were fanatics. They planned to use it because it's EFFICENT.

BTW, we really dont know much about how strong BoS was at the point of Fallout 2, all we have is a single phrase or two to base on. So this discussion is one big assumption, but fun to read and reply.

 

[requiem_for_a_starfury]

I mean, if the Pals are the protectors of the Brotherhood, they need to have experience.

Not necessarily, I was watching something recently about coastal forts in the UK, they were built in case of invasion by Napoleon. Of course the invasion never came, but people relied on the soldiers of the forts to protect them. While they were well trained they never gained any experience. Besides what experience is there to be gained in fighting off raiders? Raiders fire a few shots at the Paladins until they run out of bullets, the bullets bounce off their armour, raiders throw rocks at the Paladins until they run out of rocks, rocks bounce off the power armour. Raiders rush the Paladins with their empty weapons held as clubs, Paladins press down the trigger on their mini-gun bye bye raiders.

After the Enclave slaughters the first ten villages people WILL resist (see IIWW)

Yeah but the Brotherhood is more of a threat than some primitive village (primitive compared to the Enclave) the Enclave would be more sensible to attack the Brotherhood first, they planned to release the virus to take out the villages, it's only places like the Brotherhood and vault city they would need to attack.

Also, put yourself in the position of an Enclave soldier - a grunt, not an officer. You come in frsh from the Oil Rig, where everything was repaired, in excellent shape and all, where there were people, your friends, etc. Now, fresh from your home, you enter a desolate, burned out city, with skeletons still laying around. Even from behind the visor of the APA this still makes you depressant...

It might make some of them depressed, but I don't think it would lower their morale enough to affect their combat effectiveness. It really depends on how they were briefed, with the right spin they could actually be jubilant at the sight of the ruins, a symbol of the corrupt society whose last remnants they are about to wipe out.

Vertibirds as an air support? I think Vs are far too fragile to perform these tasks, just look at the crashed Verti in Klamath. A possible engine failure (maybe a fuel leak, as the locals said "a ball of fire" (OSLT) will cost the Enclave a precious Vertibird, fuel, ammunition, 2 pilots and a squad of soldiers if there were any onboard.

I didn't necessarily mean combat, ferrying in fresh recruits or supplies, picking up the wounded for emergency treatment etc would give them an advantage. Even if they did use them in combat, it's likely the vertibird's arnament would have far greater range than anything hand held (even if it was held by power armour) meaning they could attack from a safe distance, weakening the Brotherhood's defences.

They planned to use it not because they were fanatics. They planned to use it because it's EFFICENT.

That's what I said, they choose that method because it was the most efficient not because they didn't think they could win a conventional war which is what your previous post implied.

BTW, we really dont know much about how strong BoS was at the point of Fallout 2, all we have is a single phrase or two to base on. So this discussion is one big assumption, but fun to read and reply.

Yeah all conjecture, but it passes the time away, especially when you wake up at 2.40am and can't get back to sleep.

 

[Tagaziel]

What I meant "couldnt win" was that they'd run out of supplies sooner than they'd accomplish their objective.

About slaughtering villages and cities - yes, they'd first attack the BoS, VC and possibly NCR, but if an occasional town with survivors comes into shooting range, why not level it with conventional (non-energy) weapons? Less mutants=less trouble, and think of the supplies (food and water) that could be scavenged.

This is a great thread, and you requiem are a great conversationalist.

 

[Lazarus Plus]

What I meant "couldnt win" was that they'd run out of supplies sooner than they'd accomplish their objective.

About slaughtering villages and cities - yes, they'd first attack the BoS, VC and possibly NCR, but if an occasional town with survivors comes into shooting range, why not level it with conventional (non-energy) weapons? Less mutants=less trouble, and think of the supplies (food and water) that could be scavenged.

I agree that they would have difficulty keeping themselves fully supplied... Does the Enclave even KNOW the extent of the BoS? Unlikely, and it wouldn't find out easily, since to get to some BoS bases they'd have to fly over others, which might let them shoot down the vertibird/warn the other base/etc.

In any case, seeing as the main base is on an oil rig, how much war material could they be storing there? And how would they go about the process of acquiring more quickly? It wouldn't be easy, that's for sure.

 

[requiem_for_a_starfury]

I presumed that the small Brotherhood outposts were set up after they had encountered the Enclave and unless they had SAM defences we didn't see, the vertibirds would just need to fly above the range of the Paladins weapons.

While Navarro might be their first staging post on the mainland, it needn't be their only outpost, just the first one they inhabited. Probably at the same time the Enclave's founders in the government and military were preparing the oil rig, they built several supply dumps from one of which the Enclave constructed the Navarro facility.

 

[Lazarus Plus]

I presumed that the small Brotherhood outposts were set up after they had encountered the Enclave and unless they had SAM defences we didn't see, the vertibirds would just need to fly above the range of the Paladins weapons.

While Navarro might be their first staging post on the mainland, it needn't be their only outpost, just the first one they inhabited. Probably at the same time the Enclave's founders in the government and military were preparing the oil rig, they built several supply dumps from one of which the Enclave constructed the Navarro facility.

This does not reslve the issue of where they would acquire the war materials necessary for a porlonged campaign in the first place. Unless they found a depot unscathed by the nukes there wouldn't be any stockpiles, and I must profess doubt that there was enough storage space on the oil rig for a great deal of material.

 

[Brazillian Slaughter]

Man, Before the Enclave, the BOS only have fighted ONE real enemy: The Master Army.
But now, compare the Master Army with the Enclave.
Geez, the rest, BOS will fight enemies WITH power Armor (A better one), and all tecnological Stuff they have AND better...
BOS will sure be defeated...

 

[requiem_for_a_starfury]

This does not reslve the issue of where they would acquire the war materials necessary for a porlonged campaign in the first place. Unless they found a depot unscathed by the nukes there wouldn't be any stockpiles, and I must profess doubt that there was enough storage space on the oil rig for a great deal of material.

They'd be pretty shortsighted to not set up some sort of supply network before the war, for when they planned to return to the mainland. Just a load of sites buried in the middle of nowhere away from any potential targets would do, they probably wouldn't expect all of them to survive so would build some redundancy into the network.

I presume they choose the oil rig as a base, since the war was over resources, they'd hope that it wouldn't be targeted in a nuclear strike. Their supplies needn't all be on the rig itself. Several container ships could have been docked beneath the rig each full of supplies rather than oil. They could of even of sunk specially converted supply ships beneath the rig and after the war refloated them as needed.

 

[Lazarus Plus]

They'd be pretty shortsighted to not set up some sort of supply network before the war, for when they planned to return to the mainland. Just a load of sites buried in the middle of nowhere away from any potential targets would do, they probably wouldn't expect all of them to survive so would build some redundancy into the network.

I presume they choose the oil rig as a base, since the war was over resources, they'd hope that it wouldn't be targeted in a nuclear strike. Their supplies needn't all be on the rig itself. Several container ships could have been docked beneath the rig each full of supplies rather than oil. They could of even of sunk specially converted supply ships beneath the rig and after the war refloated them as needed.

Very excellent points, actually. I salute you. Yes, if they had the foresight they certainly could have done all of these things.

A more pressing issue is how they would move large concentrations of troops and supplies quickly. Seems to me they'd have to move over units piecemeal, as I do not think that a vertibird could be capable of holding more than 10-15 fully-armed troopers at a time. How many vertibirds are available to the Enclave? We don't know.

We also don't know whether they have ships, whether large or small... So unless the supply network is on the mainland, or they do have ships, they'd definitely have difficulties moving the supplies needed for a campaign over, unless they'd done so slowly already at a central location like Navarro.

 

[DirtyDreamDesigner]

Well, they were preparing to rebuild the US and retake the wasteland from whoever was in it, I'm pretty sure they had all their bases covered (hehe, pun), they wouldn't know what could happen after the war, so knowing the US army they would have contingency plans in case there was a large military presence in the US (be it the Chinese, Canadians or a group of techno-zealots like the brotherhood) so they would probably have WMD, heavy ground troops, plenty of machinery and weapons and so on, if not, they would know where to get them, what with them knowing where all the pre war military bases are. Brotherhood, on the other hand, is neither prepared nor willing to wage a massive war against an enemy of unknown size.
You might say that they have experience from fighting the master, but they only sent a couple of knights and they all probably got killed there...
My money is on the enclave all the way.

 

[requiem_for_a_starfury]

A more pressing issue is how they would move large concentrations of troops and supplies quickly. Seems to me they'd have to move over units piecemeal, as I do not think that a vertibird could be capable of holding more than 10-15 fully-armed troopers at a time. How many vertibirds are available to the Enclave? We don't know.

We also don't know whether they have ships, whether large or small... So unless the supply network is on the mainland, or they do have ships, they'd definitely have difficulties moving the supplies needed for a campaign over, unless they'd done so slowly already at a central location like Navarro.

I presume that the initial spearhead came over using the oil tanker carrying troops and supplies enough either to build Navarro or at least to last them until they found an intact supply cache. It's been a while since I played FO2 and I can't remember if it was explained how the Base commander at Navarro had the fob for the tanker but if they used it to reach the mainland it would be a likely explanation.

 

[JMS]

But enclave was not so numerous. There was only like 100 or less soldiers on oil rig and i managed to whipe them all by myself. And don't forget that on the end of fallout2, BOS alredy had vertibird plans so they could made similiar constructions. BOS was also aware of enclave plans and they ekspected agression.

Sorry for poor english.

 

[Wooz]

But enclave was not so numerous. There was only like 100 or less soldiers on oil rig

Power-armoured soldiers. With the best weapons.

and i managed to whipe them all by myself.

Gee, because you had advanced power armor and a gauss rifle? Remember one Enclave squad was enough to wipe out a small village, without casualties. They could wipe out *any*city in the game world, with the mobility vertibirds provided and their advanced armor/weapons. Remember how the Salvatores, supposedly the family with the most firepower in New Reno, were held on a leash by the Enclave.

 

[requiem_for_a_starfury]

But enclave was not so numerous. There was only like 100 or less soldiers on oil rig and i managed to whipe them all by myself.

We don't see all the Oil rig, just as we don't see all of the vaults or all of NCR etc. Besides as Wooz points out you have comparable if not better equipment than the average Enclave foot soldier. A lot of the Troopers (cadets?)are equipped in basic PA how easily you take them out is indictive of the outcome of a meeting between the Enclave and the Brotherhood.

Though I think this thread has moved on from a plot idea to discussing what might of taken place if the Chosen one hadn't interfered.

And don't forget that on the end of fallout2, BOS alredy had vertibird plans so they could made similiar constructions. BOS was also aware of enclave plans and they ekspected agression.

Assuming they have the time and resources to produce enough vertibirds and train the crews to use them. To make a difference before the Enclave attacked.

 

[JMS]

In that case Enclave would probably crush Brotherhood. As much as we know from game, BOS didn't had any air support, no weapon of mass destruction like fev or nukes, their technology was older. Only advantage BOS had was little more experienced troops and more knowledge about wasteland, but i don't believe that enclave soldier wasn't trained in survival so its not much of advantage. And in the end, it is brotherhood who asks chosen one for help in retrieving vertibird plans. They're apparently too weak at that time to do it alone.

 

[Lazarus Plus]

In that case Enclave would probably crush Brotherhood. As much as we know from game, BOS didn't had any air support, no weapon of mass destruction like fev or nukes, their technology was older. Only advantage BOS had was little more experienced troops and more knowledge about wasteland, but i don't believe that enclave soldier wasn't trained in survival so its not much of advantage. And in the end, it is brotherhood who asks chosen one for help in retrieving vertibird plans. They're apparently too weak at that time to do it alone.

It isn't that they are too weak, it's that they can't allow one of their people get captured while trying to get the plans. If he spills the beans and the Enclave attacks the BoS before they are ready, who knows what would happen?

The Chosen One, on the other hand, is a "free agent". And he's motivated to go to Navarro for other reasons as well, and he MUST survive to save his village. A good choice for that kind of assignment.

 

[requiem_for_a_starfury]

[It isn't that they are too weak, it's that they can't allow one of their people get captured while trying to get the plans. If he spills the beans and the Enclave attacks the BoS before they are ready, who knows what would happen?

The Chosen One, on the other hand, is a "free agent". And he's motivated to go to Navarro for other reasons as well, and he MUST survive to save his village. A good choice for that kind of assignment.

If you ask Matt who his sources are about Navarro he says

"I had an operative go and scout the base. Her reports recently stopped; I can only assume the worst. Please be careful"

So the Enclave has either captured or killed one Brotherhood operative and since they're not exactly inconspicous in their shiny new bunkers with nice banners outside it's likely the Enclave know all about them already.