Fallout 2 - Play till you hate it

Surf Solar said:
Hm, where might the sherrif be. Perhaps in that big building with "police office" sign on the outside? Nah, let's click on random npc all over the map instead.
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You see my good friend, that's the shite right there! That's deputy Karl. The dude barely out of his teens. NCR SHERIFF is, well.. You'll have to find him yourself.. Oog..
 
Dienan said:
Compass markers are a pipboy hud element. It has a hand held scanner of sort..
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:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Bullshit.

It's not a hand scanner or other bullshit.
it's tool for moron and tool for killing game.
There aren't many people in town at Fo1,2.
it's not hard to find a people you need or place you should go.

it killed oblivion. anyway it was killed by auto journal that is just walkthrough before quest marker kill the game. it made NV flawed.
the most biggest flaw is giving NV quest marker and auto journal.

without that, TES was great game and Fallout too.
with that both series is died.
 
Ha if you think Fallout is hard try Kings Quest 5 or 6. They will have you pulling your hair out trying to figure out the game creator's weird logic.
 
Ahhh, pointy-clicky adventure games ("maybe if I try taping the trout the the battle axe and using it to jimmy open the sewer grate..."). Don't forget that Fallout was also made and played by the generation that grew up with Infocom text adventures ("I've died and restarted FOURTEEN times to get back to this point, but I think I've finally figured out the 380-step-process to get the vending machine to make me a cup of tea") and golden-age RPGs (I hope you remember the throwaway dialogue from that inconsequential NPC hairdresser you met three real-world hours ago or you're never, ever going to be able to beat the next boss/Well if you didn't want the crappy ending, why in the hell didn't you fly halfway across the world and talk to the oracle 15 times in a row before you opened the chest at the top of Darkmoor Tower?).

None of that would play too well on modern consoles, though.
 
woo1108 said:
Bullshit.
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Yeah ok. You still aren't trying to catch the ball just once. With what has been said by others, simply most of the time what you have to do is figure out the weird logic of the developers and try to play the game in that logic and gain some satisfaction. If the developers think that they should make heads explode when hit by a small caliber bullet, they do it and they incorporate it into the game anyway they like. If they choose to have a large portion of the torso of a human enemy when is hit in the eye for it's a crit, they impliment it then and there. It's f*cking weird every-time you see a targeted eye shot distroy the torso of an enemy. Same goes in new games. In new vegas, you just can't set some plastic explosives to blast open a door or kick it open (let's say unoccupied buildings for now). It's the developer's logic right there! *points at a shack door 'Yeah, we should make these doors each weigh 13 tons and unbreakable. Explosives? What?! No! That would make the lockpick skill useless and would make our lazy-ass selves to think the system over'. Same logic wants you to kill a man with a 5.56mm pistol by shooting him in the face thrise in a row and not dying and playing an animation where it looks like he's got some spice powder in his eye. I see compass markers and HUD as a link for those who has a different point of view on logic. It's the tool used when you can't determine North by looking at the Sun in the morning.
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Why is each of your posts consisting of incoherent rambling? Aside from some inane stuff or downright false facts, I can't find the actual point you want to make?
 
Dienan said:
It's the tool used when you can't determine North by looking at the Sun in the morning.
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for that, what you need is just a compass, not a magical compass that indicate exact where the goal is.
look, quest mark is not a tool. it's just walkthrough.
Think about dinner with Chinese, Japanese or Korean dishes.
and there are pair of chopsticks.
to eat them properly, you have to learn how to use chopsticks.
you can simply use fork or spoon to enjoy meal
actually you acclimatize with chopstick, then it's better to eat those dishes.
but what you seek is not a fork or spoon.
what you seek is machine that drags food to your mouth directly.
with this the eater can't enjoy the meal since he can't eat what he want. it's just feeding, feeding pig, cow, chicken or something.
what you need would be tool but this isn't tool, it ruin the dinner and spoil you. and you are acclimatized with that horrible machine and said "it's hard to use chopstick, spoon and fork! gimme the tool!"
 
Dienan said:
If (code name) VB was ever relesed, this discursion would've been going somewhere else. Anyway, most people seem to HATE compass arrows. I didn't hate it at all because it is a virtual world you play in where depth, length, height and weight is not the same as you would expect it to be in the real word. @Woo, imagine this. You are told to kill the Deathclaws in QJ by Chomp and you don't have any compass markers. I remember you said that you met a Deathclaw on top of Black Mountain, which was killing super mutants. IF the Deathclaws in the QJ was not compass pointed and IF the quest required you to kill all of them at QJ and one had wandered off to the Black Mountain crater, would you ever guess that the Deathclaw you need to kill to complete the quest is fighting a nightkin or Moe? I hope you get what I'm saying. Think about finding the lost laser pistol. It isn't compass marked but pretty easy to miss. If you enter the glutch from where Moe is, chances are that you'd never find it because you'd never think those two idiots would choose low ground to fire on giant scors on high ground.. (that's how I thought thus looked for it on the cliff)
I'm going for the implants, although I'm going to miss some. Anyway, wherever I look I can't seem to find 2mmEC ammo. I don't want to kill/assassinate those good people at NCR for a gun and some ammo (just a moral choice). I found the gauss pistol but Little Buster and the guy at Flying Dragon 8 aren't selling any (not in the first game, not in the second. yeah I open all the sutff) Is it a bug or is there a level req for them to sell 2mmEC?
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In the situation you talk about, you (as game developer, not as player) could just script the movements of the quest related critters so they don't go far away from there. Just as simple. Scripting is usually a powerful tool for developing a game.

drawnacrol said:
Ha if you think Fallout is hard try Kings Quest 5 or 6. They will have you pulling your hair out trying to figure out the game creator's weird logic.
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AGI games (was it AGI, right? or was it SCI?) were made by devil itself, if Fallout is hard.
 
I'm sorry if you find my posts 'rambling'. English isn't my mother tounge so I'm not very used to go head on with people who use it daily as their MT. So pardon me there. Apart from making the quests "too easy" as you guys put it, I don't see what's wrong in a world a little too big and characters looking all the same. Soldiers, residents, farmers, etc.. You name it. If the world was so rich and each character atleast had a slight difference that would separate them from everyone else, this NOCOMPASS theory would work. When the quest giver says "kill that big mofo with a scar on his face, he might be near the xxx right now" and when you see the dead guy you SHOULD be able to see a scar on his face and make him distinguishable from others. If not, if all the thugs on the street looked the same, what option you'd have than talking to everyone else? Compassmarkers??
 
Then you should report that quest giver about the corpse that looks like big mofo. if it is correct, then it's good.
if not, then you should find that big mofo from other place not just depending on walkthrough.
 
woo1108 said:
Then you should report that quest giver about the corpse that looks like big mofo. if it is correct, then it's good.
if not, then you should find that big mofo from other place not just depending on walkthrough.
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Whoa! That's good for a GTA game. Much better for something like Skyrim, Oblivion. Doesn't sound like Fallout.
 
Morrowind did it already.
and for Fallout, that's the Fallout.
Fallout wasn't about following idiotic arrow and reading journals that gives you answer directly.

what you play wasn't Fallout nor TES it's just POS.
yes fo3 isn't Fallout at all, even not a TES.
it's just stupid ugly abomination.

GTA? that's just game for car theft, driving, killing
not for RPG at all.
 
I don't particularly enjoy the way the magical quest markers were implemened in the game, but I don't think it's fair to entirely discount Dienan's point-- Fallout is a different game now than it was before. Locations aren't as self-contained, you have to go through far more work to plumb the physical nooks and crannies, and there's no longer a handy-dandy text box or examination tooltip for assessing all the actors and objects onscreen at a glance. No longer is it a matter of taking in an entire map with a couple of flicks of a mouse, looking beneath every roof to see what most bears further interaction, and checking on which NPCs names or descriptions make them seem worthwhile. I think that without (limited) use of quest markers, things could be a lot more tedious than they can already tend to get in Gamebryo.

Now, do they need to show you the way to people you've never met, or to specific spots or objects? No. New Vegas had a lot more unmarked quests than Fallout 3, and it was probably for that very reason. I personally feel the navigation and questminding was too simplified in the newer games, but New Vegas was made by some of the Godfathers of the franchise. If they had felt the game experience wouldn't have suffered from minimizing or removing quest markers, they would have done so.
 
Thanks for the pointer Yamu. As you said, if quest markers are to be removed then quests, people and places related to them should be uniqe and easy to find/figure out by the discription you're given by the quest giver. I understand that the engine used to develop Fallout 3 and NV (gamebyro) is the main reason they had to impliment the quest markers. Since you can't make quest objects glow and spin around in a ball of light like in a GTA game (I immidiately hate GTA games, never played vice city or anything), they had to do something to keep the player from becoming frustrated by not finding a quest object, person or a place. The games do not aid you in NOCOMPASS mode. As I have said in another thread, in Fallout games, you don't have an in-game notebook or a pipboy tab where you can write your own notes. I'll use the same example from the. When you find the safe in Bison Steve when you first hit there, chances are you are unable to open it due to low lock pick skill. You move on and forget that safe. Never being able to crack it open even after you acquire the skills. If the pipboy had a place to write(type) and keep stiky notes and sort, you could just add a note saying "hard locked safe in xx." Not those 3rd person and self notes in-game. The ones you make yourself in NV where some notes read as if the Courier himself added them there and some others read like the God himself added to his pipboy, refering him in 3rd person. The notes should have a singular, normal and a set pattern. "I have to diliver ten stimpacks to James at the bridge", an unmarked quest example. "I should search this vault and find out who those dead people were at the enterence", an example for the correct form of quest in vault 11. Phew..
 
Yamu said:
"maybe if I try taping the trout the the battle axe and using it to jimmy open the sewer grate..."
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Oh, thanks, I've gone for years wondering if I was the only one who found many of those solutions incredibly arbitrary.
I would be stuck in those games for days, and I would resent all those who finished them quickly. How the hell did they even think of taping fish to tools!?
 
I think it's a design decision that stems partly from the move away from predominantly text-based dialogue and information interface, and partly from a desire for more accessibility. But it's a very real problem, as was pointed out, that using quest markers allow developers to be lazy in terms of writing good quests and ensuring players have the information needed to finish them without a marker. This hurts immersion, and is bad design. I think the optimal solution would be one where you run without markers by default, but if stuck, you could open the pipboy for a review of your last piece of information, and receive a quest marker to guide you to your next objective.
 
Eh, the quest markers are lame but they also aren't some abortion to mankind that it's biggest detractors make them out to be. They serve their purpose in a productive way but over-reliance that we see in the newest games are what kills it.
 
Just kind of a side note. I played Skyrim and NV without quest markers on my first playthroughs. I also didn't use fast travel.

Needless to say, it was extraordinarily frustrating. In games like Morrowind you got hints on where to look for stuff and it was fine and dandy.. However, in NV and Skyrim, there is seemingly no consideration from the devs for people who chose to play this way, you are literally flying blind. NV did a better job at explaining where stuff was but it was still a massive pain.

I always try to play games with as little UI as I can, and it just bugs the hell out of me that instead of games becoming more immersive they're going the opposite. I hate using strange menus to get to items. At least the one in the neo-FO games don't just use some lame visual overlay for picking items but it still is stupid I'd dig through my inventory on a computer rather than just setting my backpack down and looking through it in real time.
 
I've never played Skyrim. From what I've heard, I don't have enough time to finish the game with my work. Well, it'll take 160 days or more at this rate. Anyway, I've seen that you can inspect items in your pack in full 3D in Skyrim. Eyecandy it might be but that's something I've always wanted in a game. Also, I'm a left hander and I'd hold a shieid on my right hand and sword on the left. Also, if I was to fire an AMR; the spend case would fly away right infront of my face. Opposing the current *right hand* Courier in NV. Little things like that *doable in Dark Souls* never fail to staplar me to RPG games..
 
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