For future reference, it would be fine to link to a specific topic there.tre said:
Fallout 3 forum polls and reverberations
- Thread starter Tannhauser
- Start date
I think it's not per chance that the critical threads like "will u buy Fallout3 if it's Oblivion with guns" and others were closed...
I sense evil...
(and i actually can't leave The Glow, having a radiation damage of 2324, send me a pm if you know something :..< :emo: )
I sense evil...
(and i actually can't leave The Glow, having a radiation damage of 2324, send me a pm if you know something :..< :emo: )
Briosafreak : um. Optimistic ? I'm not really sure what you mean by that. Haven't really made any predictions about the opinions of the 'sleeping majority', aside from there being (at least some) who'll vouch for Real-Time and whatnot.
That said, I haven't been scouring the net looking for Fallout news, so I'm not really up to date on public opinion outside of these (and the Bethesda ones, for now) forums. Nor am I up to date on how widespread the news of Bethesda making Fo3 is either. The point I tried to make is that the 'sleeping majority' is a pretty big wildcard. Do we really know what these people think ? Not everyone who played and enjoyed Fallout may have really understood what it is about - and won't contest such changes as much, and may even request 'em. Perhaps you have a clearer picture. Do share, if you have. I'm pretty interested.
Tannhauser : Yeah, I, uh ... actually understood which silent minority you're talking about. Didn't make it very clear, sorry. Just wanted to wonder/rant about where most of it came from, and if there are other silent majorities not into play yet. Hmmm... As for the selection in polls, I did notice pretty much all of the polls on the Bethesda forums were of this slanted kind ... so it wasn't an accusation towards you. (Could have made that clearer, too)
[Pre-Submit Edit] Oi! Looks like the "where are you from" poll is a bit more homogenous than I thought. Hmmm ... [/Pre-Submit Edit]
...
-Gerko, suddenly having flashbacks of Rosh blasting newbies on the DAC Fo3 Suggestions forum back in '99. (He was milder back then. Not that you could call him mild. But less ... severe.) Ah. Good times.
That said, I haven't been scouring the net looking for Fallout news, so I'm not really up to date on public opinion outside of these (and the Bethesda ones, for now) forums. Nor am I up to date on how widespread the news of Bethesda making Fo3 is either. The point I tried to make is that the 'sleeping majority' is a pretty big wildcard. Do we really know what these people think ? Not everyone who played and enjoyed Fallout may have really understood what it is about - and won't contest such changes as much, and may even request 'em. Perhaps you have a clearer picture. Do share, if you have. I'm pretty interested.
Tannhauser : Yeah, I, uh ... actually understood which silent minority you're talking about. Didn't make it very clear, sorry. Just wanted to wonder/rant about where most of it came from, and if there are other silent majorities not into play yet. Hmmm... As for the selection in polls, I did notice pretty much all of the polls on the Bethesda forums were of this slanted kind ... so it wasn't an accusation towards you. (Could have made that clearer, too)
[Pre-Submit Edit] Oi! Looks like the "where are you from" poll is a bit more homogenous than I thought. Hmmm ... [/Pre-Submit Edit]
...
-Gerko, suddenly having flashbacks of Rosh blasting newbies on the DAC Fo3 Suggestions forum back in '99. (He was milder back then. Not that you could call him mild. But less ... severe.) Ah. Good times.
Briosafreak
Lived Through the Heat Death
Actually, my impression of the BSGF moderators has been pretty positive. They have been pretty impartially closing down the trolling threads caused by both sides, while leaving those threads with interesting discussions alone.Kukident said:
It is a pity that Joystiq falls back on the 'old-fashioned' argument, even in such a casual nature, as well as the 'Fallout is just a setting' later on in the article.Joystiq said:
Sorrow said:It's weird. People used to make detailed 3d models and then convert them into 2d isometric sprites. A total waste of work and graphical stuff.
Right.
3D models back then were (easily) being converted into 2d isometric sprites.In this day and age when you spend the amount of time devs do making high def 3d models...it just doesn't make sense to dumb it down back to isometric sprites and whatnot.You'd want to show it off, make people go "holy shit, that looks good", and bethesda being who they are, I very much doubt they'll uh...do that.
But hey who knows...maybe bethesda will listen to you guys and keep the game faithful to its roots.I'm sure they'll have it in them to keep the game the way it was and not just make it into another oblivionish-must appeal to mass market-orgy party.
right?
.....right?
And why do you assume that an isometric viewpoint is 2d?
Sorrow
So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs
I wonder if they will be able to recreate the comic-bookish/cartoonish feel of those graphics in 3d. Spriting is an art in itself and it has it's own unique strenghts. We don't see comic books going 3d, because they would lost a lot of their unique charm and frankly, they would suck.Darwyn said:Sorrow said:It's weird. People used to make detailed 3d models and then convert them into 2d isometric sprites. A total waste of work and graphical stuff
Right.
3D models back then were (easily) being converted into 2d isometric sprites.In this day and age when you spend the amount of time devs do making high def 3d models...it just doesn't make sense to dumb it down back to isometric sprites and whatnot.You'd want to show it off, make people go "holy shit, that looks good", and bethesda being who they are, I very much doubt they'll uh...do that.
What will the graphical 3d "stuff" turn the Fallout graphic style to?
Operation Fallout-Point?
TheVaultKeeper
Deliciously Demented
I think we can all agree that F3 will most likely be a 3D-game with a first-person to third-person perspective. Much like in Oblivion.
This makes sense since this is the engine that bethesda has. I think this is a no brainer for bethesda and that there's no point in arguing about it - it won't change anything.
However - where it gets interesting is in the turn-based vs non-turn-based department. And I believe that's were bethesda currently has the biggest issues to think about.
My guess is that we might see either a completely non-turnbased fighting system, or a system similar to that in KOTOR (Knights of the old republic). That is - 3D-graphics which pauses to allow for strategic input.
This system in KOTOR works very well and I recommend the game to everyone who hasn't tried it (the first is the best!).
And about translating 2D-comics to 3D. Well - just look at the current Sam&Max games that are a real success and not bad at all.
It's a VERY different style than fallout but it shows that there are successful 2D-->3D translations around.
This makes sense since this is the engine that bethesda has. I think this is a no brainer for bethesda and that there's no point in arguing about it - it won't change anything.
However - where it gets interesting is in the turn-based vs non-turn-based department. And I believe that's were bethesda currently has the biggest issues to think about.
My guess is that we might see either a completely non-turnbased fighting system, or a system similar to that in KOTOR (Knights of the old republic). That is - 3D-graphics which pauses to allow for strategic input.
This system in KOTOR works very well and I recommend the game to everyone who hasn't tried it (the first is the best!).
And about translating 2D-comics to 3D. Well - just look at the current Sam&Max games that are a real success and not bad at all.
It's a VERY different style than fallout but it shows that there are successful 2D-->3D translations around.
Sorrow
So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs
Hmm...
Sam&Max style seem to be much less detailed, while Fallout style was mostly based on highly detailed sprites and (Frank Frazetta/Frank Miller) comic style Talking heads.
I have yet to see 3-d graphics that are as clean as those.
Dungeon Siege II came into my mind for a moment (because of comic graphics on boxes and advertisments), but I've looked at official screens and no. There's something wet end dirty in 3d graphics that makes making as clean and sharp graphics as sprites impossible...
Graphics should be chosen to fit the graphic style of the game - 3d is better for games with photorealistic graphics (Operation Flashpoint for example) but on the other hand 2d isometric style is better for Fallout-style graphics.
Putting 3d everywhere just because it can be done is the same kind of cultural vandalism as completely changing the game type because of "innovashun".
I wonder if Bethesda producers even bother about recreating Fallout style.
Sam&Max style seem to be much less detailed, while Fallout style was mostly based on highly detailed sprites and (Frank Frazetta/Frank Miller) comic style Talking heads.
I have yet to see 3-d graphics that are as clean as those.
Dungeon Siege II came into my mind for a moment (because of comic graphics on boxes and advertisments), but I've looked at official screens and no. There's something wet end dirty in 3d graphics that makes making as clean and sharp graphics as sprites impossible...
Graphics should be chosen to fit the graphic style of the game - 3d is better for games with photorealistic graphics (Operation Flashpoint for example) but on the other hand 2d isometric style is better for Fallout-style graphics.
Putting 3d everywhere just because it can be done is the same kind of cultural vandalism as completely changing the game type because of "innovashun".
I wonder if Bethesda producers even bother about recreating Fallout style.
TheVaultKeeper
Deliciously Demented
I think that it can be done.
Just look at this picture
I can imagine that in 3D already. The characters are no problem, neither is the tent, the sand, the bushes or the stone wall. It's all very possible to create.
The hardest is probably to create the dirty gritty feel of the larger cities, but it can be done I'm sure. I believe such a simple thing as dust and sandstorm could do wonders for the athmospere.
What I'm most worried about is actually the scale of the project. F1 and F2 had *A LOT* of text, and random info, scattered all over the place. And that's what really made the games as immersive as they are IMHO. Oblivion has a lot of text and info in it as well - but it's no where near as much as in F1 and F2.
And since much of F3 will be with voice-acting as well I think we will have to be prepared that F3 will not have that extreme level of content that F1 and F2 had.
Just look at this picture
I can imagine that in 3D already. The characters are no problem, neither is the tent, the sand, the bushes or the stone wall. It's all very possible to create.
The hardest is probably to create the dirty gritty feel of the larger cities, but it can be done I'm sure. I believe such a simple thing as dust and sandstorm could do wonders for the athmospere.
What I'm most worried about is actually the scale of the project. F1 and F2 had *A LOT* of text, and random info, scattered all over the place. And that's what really made the games as immersive as they are IMHO. Oblivion has a lot of text and info in it as well - but it's no where near as much as in F1 and F2.
And since much of F3 will be with voice-acting as well I think we will have to be prepared that F3 will not have that extreme level of content that F1 and F2 had.
Sorrow
So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs
Actually, the wasteland graphics are least comic style in Fallout. On the other hand caves, vaults and military facilities are much more stylised and would be hard to recreate in 3d.TheVaultKeeper said:I think that it can be done.
Just look at this picture
I can imagine that in 3D already. The characters are no problem, neither is the tent, the sand, the bushes or the stone wall. It's all very possible to create.
The hardest is probably to create the dirty gritty feel of the larger cities, but it can be done I'm sure. I believe such a simple thing as dust and sandstorm could do wonders for the athmospere.
Even with the same amount of text full voice-acting would be horrible - it's an archaic technique that is a lot slower than reading.TheVaultKeeper said:
TheVaultKeeper
Deliciously Demented
Sorrow said:
Have you seen the caves in oblivion? I don't know about you but I don't think there's anything wrong with them. As for vaults and military facilities - well we just have to wait and see. But I'm keeping my hopes up...
Sorrow said:
Yes - I'm a bit uncertain here myself. On one hand I think voice-acting does add more feel and realism. On the other hand I often find myself "clicking away" the voice acting as soon as it's started in oblivion just because - like you say - it's much slower and most of the time you know what they're going to say anyway.
But having said that - voice acting can be awesome for important charcters that you really want to hear out.
I'm not going to touch the topic of 3D-2D, but the voice acting is rather more interesting since it connects with story.
I'm on the lines of Sorrow and TheVaultKeeper here, some voice acting would be really nice (like the FO talking heads) but one important thing about voice acting is that it can't have subtitles (or connecting text) because you, as stated before, read faster than you listen to the text you'll just be sitting there waiting for the speech to end, getting annoyed.
I'm on the lines of Sorrow and TheVaultKeeper here, some voice acting would be really nice (like the FO talking heads) but one important thing about voice acting is that it can't have subtitles (or connecting text) because you, as stated before, read faster than you listen to the text you'll just be sitting there waiting for the speech to end, getting annoyed.
Absolutely agreed.
Joystiq, Briosa. Joystick is a french gaming magazine.Briosafreak said:
If minimum requirements are not too low (sub 2ghz P4 or equivalent perhaps and a matching videocard), then model wise, it can be very close. Have a look at Titan Quest or upcoming Loki. Setting wise they're totally different from fallout, but if ghouls need stuff dangling from their elbows that's not any longer really a problem. Not from a 3d bird view perspective. Of course it is true you can still have infinite detail in a still image and in 3d you can only have so so many. But on recent (~2+ghz P4) computers we're probably beyond what Fallout shows.
There will be some great benefits from going 3d models too.
3D models with animation takes very little video memory compared to animated sprites. And today, with resolutions 1240x1024 - 1600x1200 not being uncomon, you'd need "alot" of video memory to have non-pixelated fallout-style smooth sprite animations. 3D obviously is scalable.
Which in turn means we could have far more types of animations and far more models (think huge number of gear and weapons).
4-5 years ago I would've said no too. But today, meh.
Loki looks mighty fine here (video):http://www.gametrailers.com/player.php?id=16675&type=mov&pl=game
There will be some great benefits from going 3d models too.
3D models with animation takes very little video memory compared to animated sprites. And today, with resolutions 1240x1024 - 1600x1200 not being uncomon, you'd need "alot" of video memory to have non-pixelated fallout-style smooth sprite animations. 3D obviously is scalable.
Which in turn means we could have far more types of animations and far more models (think huge number of gear and weapons).
4-5 years ago I would've said no too. But today, meh.
Loki looks mighty fine here (video):http://www.gametrailers.com/player.php?id=16675&type=mov&pl=game