Fallout 3 Hands-On #13

[grapedog]

[Because the developers aren't going to do it. That's why. Developers don't do a lot of thing a lot of people want them to do.

You seem to think that it's not OK to complain about that.

On these forums? I don't see any complaining.

I don't like seeing a guy get ragged on because he thinks modding will fix his compass issue when it's a very reasonable hope to have.... especially since that kind of stuff happens all of the time with just about every moddable game.

I appreciate the backup Jesuit, but let them rag on...apparently there is only one way for them to un-twist their panties.

some people wonder why there are thorns on roses, others smile because someone put roses among the thorns. It's just two different ways of looking at things. Normally, I'm just as much of a jerk as any other person out there, but I enjoyed the moddability of Oblivion and I look forward to that same moddability in FO3.

No game has ever been perfect(except Portal)...ever(except Portal), but LOTS of games don't give you that ability to change what you don't like. When I finally got Oblivion set the way I really enjoyed it, I was running close to 40 mods for different little bits of flavor. I imagine that the same thing will happen with FO3. The same thing would probably happen with any game I play...I've modded everything from Medieval 2 Total War to GTA3 to Half Life. You can pick any game(save Portal) that I've played, and I could give you a laundry list of little things that I don't like.

I just don't see the point in wasting breath complaining about a compass, IF, it can be modded away. There are so many more ACTUALLY IMPORTANT area of the game that they should complain about that are going to be much more difficult to see perfected. Like dialogue or lack of options for completing quests.

As for them releasing an SDK or not, I am guessing they will. It saved Oblivion for a lot of people, and gave it a MUCH longer life span.

 

[Brother None]

I just don't see the point in wasting breath complaining about a compass, IF, it can be modded away. There are so many more ACTUALLY IMPORTANT area of the game that they should complain about that are going to be much more difficult to see perfected. Like dialogue or lack of options for completing quests.

As for them releasing an SDK or not, I am guessing they will. It saved Oblivion for a lot of people, and gave it a MUCH longer life span.

The suspicion is growing an SDK will be withheld to further stimulate DLC purchases. It'd be a big mistake, for reasons you named. Bethesda never even finished patching their own game.

As for the first part: it's not "worth it" to waste your breath on anything, since nobody is listening. However, the base attitude here is that you can not dismiss bad design from a developer just because an amateur consumer can fix it for him. How big the problem at hand is is indeed another matter, we just tend to be a bit negative about the whole "modders will fix it"-line.

 

[Per]

I just don't see the point in wasting breath complaining about a compass, IF, it can be modded away. There are so many more ACTUALLY IMPORTANT area of the game that they should complain about that are going to be much more difficult to see perfected.

So when people think, "Wait, that guy says some design decision doesn't matter because someone other than the developers can possibly change it", they should refrain from pointing out the oddity in this philosophy because "Wait again, once Galactus destroyed AN ENTIRE PLANET and surely that's worse"? Forum discussions don't really work that way.

 

[grapedog]

Maybe I should re-phrase what I said...

If someone wants to bitch at me for saying the compass can be modded, fine, I could care less. If someone was bitching at me because I said we should mod all facial and combat animations which is much larger project, then I could see the point. But getting bent out of shape over a compass. Hell, put a post it note on the monitor where the compass goes...

I can see why you would be negative about the "mod it away" arguement, but I love modding and trying out other peoples mods. Sure, the compass is largely unpopular...but I LIKED the level scaling in Oblivion...some people like different things. The compass is just a focal point for bitching. Certain people like certain things, I hope the guy who thought the compass was wicked awesome, never comes to these forums.

I have mods for things in Oblivion that never even crossed my mind, but when I see them available I think...DUH, why didn't I, or the developers think of that.

Please, release the mod tools for this game...::crosses fingers::

 

[aronsearle]

/derail

You can't mod away a compass by turning it off anyway.

For a game to work without a compass, the whole layout of the game areas have to be designed to "direct" the player to the right places without making him feel railroaded, otherwise the player just stumbles about going "where the fuck do i go".

It's very unlikely that they would have designed the game areas in such a way, if they have implimented a compass, why would they. (EDIT) that's why people don't like compasses, it's not just dumbing down for the player, it's a bone idle way of developing area's, instead of having to carefully plan them to have sensible layouts, they just wack on a compass.

Therefore even seeminglly minor things are not going to be "modded away" very easily, if at all. Yea sure, you can turn the compass off, but it's not a true fix, like most mods its a "make do with" amutur patch.

 

[grapedog]

/derail

You can't mod away a compass by turning it off anyway.

For a game to work without a compass, the whole layout of the game areas have to be designed to "direct" the player to the right places without making him feel railroaded, otherwise the player just stumbles about going "where the fuck do i go".

It's very unlikely that they would have designed the game areas in such a way, if they have implimented a compass, why would they. (EDIT) that's why people don't like compasses, it's not just dumbing down for the player, it's a bone idle way of developing area's, instead of having to carefully plan them to have sensible layouts, they just wack on a compass.

Therefore even seeminglly minor things are not going to be "modded away" very easily, if at all. Yea sure, you can turn the compass off, but it's not a true fix, like most mods its a "make do with" amutur patch.

I found Oblivion much more enjoyable with the compass off, and no additional help. It caused me to explore more, and in doing so, run into more interesting places/encounters. It's all in how you look at it, and people see it in different ways.

 

[aronsearle]

It's all in how you look at it, and people see it in different ways.

Internet argument no.5

An opinion cant be wrong.

 

[Ranne]

I have no problem believing that somebody could easily traverse Oblivion without the use of the compass. 16 square miles may sound good and impressive for some (not for ones who saw those 15,000 sq.mi. ads for Dark and Light though), but was actually a rather small area that was nearly impossible to get lost in - and I only played it for a couple of days without particularly memorizing the landmarks. The constant availability of Fast Travel and detailed map didn't help the exploration process either.

 

[Jesuit]

The suspicion is growing an SDK will be withheld to further stimulate DLC purchases.

Completely unfounded I might add, they did release DLC for Oblivion...

that you can not dismiss bad design from a developer just because an amateur consumer can fix it for him. How big the problem at hand is is indeed another matter, we just tend to be a bit negative about the whole "modders will fix it"-line.

Except it isn't bad design. They designed it that way because they think it works. What's actually happening is people are getting mad because the game isn't being made their way, which is silly because modding exists for that very reason: you get to make the game your way. It's not just developers being lazy (well, maybe the content writers are being lazy in this case) and saying 'modders can make it right'

 

[Matt K]

Completely unfounded I might add, they did release DLC for Oblivion...

On the flip side, the also released DLC for Morrowind for free so a change wouldn't be a surprise. That said, it really anybody's guess at this point. My comment has only been that when deciding to purchase the game it would probably be best to wait until mod tools are released if you think the game has major issues and either modding will cure your issues or you can mod your own PA adventure. Especially since there are good arguments against releasing the tools.

 

[Ranne]

The suspicion is growing an SDK will be withheld to further stimulate DLC purchases.

Completely unfounded I might add, they did release DLC for Oblivion..

I started answering that. I recalled the criticisms of the $1.99 horse armor mod. I began explaining how the availability of vastly superior and, more importantly, free content would affect the sales. I went on with something else... and then I recalled the reasoning behind some of your earlier posts and I just thought, why bother?

First of all, your statement is illogical. The latter part of it doesn't have anything to do with proving the former one to be correct. One has to be pretty slow not to see a logical fallacy in the statement, and, as I mentioned earlier, I don't really think you belong to that category.

Second of all, the terms "supply and demand", "monopoly" and "competition" are so well known that I don't believe I know a single adult who doesn't even have a basic understanding of the concepts they represent. Considering that the mentioned suspicion (lack of competition would put less pressure on developers and stimulate DLC sales) lies so well within these concepts, I find it difficult to believe the sincerity and naiveté of your protest.

These things considered, and adding in the fact that you don't strike me as a completely unintelligent fellow, I can only assume that you choose to start these nonsensical disputes with the initial intent to piss people off (by your own wording) and distract them from the main discussion. Would it hurt you to present your arguments in a more logical and less provocative manner? Right now it just makes me feel like am feeding a troll.

 

[Jesuit]

Sure I'll help you out:

1) the speculation comes from this thread.

2) The speculation is that Bethesda won't release an SDK because they want to push up DLC sales. Their motivation for wanting to do so has yet to be established.

3) Bethesda made millions of DLC sales on Oblivion's horse armor.

4) Oblivion had an SDK.

5) Why would Bethesda think that an SDK will harm their DLC sales when they have evidence to the contrary?

6) Bethesda has stated emphatically that they want to release an SDK for Fallout 3.

7) The speculation is based entirely on conjecture and not on any evidence... it also ignores evidence, however dubious, to the contrary. Thus, I have deemed it unfounded. You have an opinion otherwise?

I think the reason you find yourself confounded is because you have a hard time seeing things from another person's point of view. For instance, when you called someone a troll in this thread when they failed to match your level of perception, or for instance, when you called me a nitpick because I thought the usage of the word 'render' was ambiguous and thus confusing. I'm sure you remember that one so I won't link you.

We don't all think like you. If you have an opinion different than mine on the above, it'd be nice if, for once, you supported it with something other than your belief that I'm stupid or trollish.

 

[Matt K]

@Jesuit: Actually pushing up DLC sales is only one reason why they might not release SDK. Another is fear that people will make children killable. This could lead to tons of bad press, re-rating the game (AO in the US) and possible banning in countries that do that. Another reason is that perhaps this game runs differently enough from Oblivion that a SDK can't be released since it would be useless (i.e. would not work much if at all).

Also, I don't visit BS's board but from the press releases they only say that they may release one, but it won't be with the game. BS has used that language before and in some cases those things never appeared (animation editor for starters).

So I don't get why the belief that a SDK will not be release is so unreasonable.

 

[Jesuit]

...fear that people will make children killable. This could lead to tons of bad press, re-rating the game (AO in the US) and possible banning in countries that do that.

I had not heard this. Has Bethesda said something to this affect? If you have a link could you post it? Also, I'm not sure how ratings go with moddable content but I think there's slack there. Otherwise I think this would be an untenable concern for every moddable game. As for the press, yeah that would be a concern of mine at least, but if they're going to provide an SDK they don't have to provide a way to make the children killable... I think? eh

Also, I don't visit BS's board but from the press releases they only say that they may release one, but it won't be with the game. BS has used that language before and in some cases those things never appeared (animation editor for starters).

While you're right that it's smart to wait for one if you think it's important , and that BS has broken promises before, they also have a pretty good record of working with and supporting mods and modders. Anyway, the point was as far as Bethesda is concerned their stance is that they want to provide one... which is really the only official word we have from them on this... even if they can't be trusted.

So I don't get why the belief that a SDK will not be release is so unreasonable.

It isn't unreasonable, it's unfounded... not based on any real facts... just conjecture and idle speculation, even more so if you're talking about the belief that it won't be released because they want to make more DLC money.

 

[Daimyo]

Maybe I should re-phrase what I said...

If someone wants to bitch at me for saying the compass can be modded, fine, I could care less. If someone was bitching at me because I said we should mod all facial and combat animations which is much larger project, then I could see the point.

I don't think anyone are complainng about you wanting to mod this should it be necessary, infact we would probably applaud you for it.

The point is that Bethesda should not skimp on their jobs just because "someone" will come along and mod it.

We are not bitching about your willingness to mod, we are bitching about Bethesda's seemingly unwillingness to listen to feedback prior to the game's release and implement some changes that both the Fallout fan base and the Oblivion fan base would welcome.

 

[grapedog]

...fear that people will make children killable. This could lead to tons of bad press, re-rating the game (AO in the US) and possible banning in countries that do that.

I had not heard this. Has Bethesda said something to this affect? If you have a link could you post it? Also, I'm not sure how ratings go with moddable content but I think there's slack there. Otherwise I think this would be an untenable concern for every moddable game. As for the press, yeah that would be a concern of mine at least, but if they're going to provide an SDK they don't have to provide a way to make the children killable... I think? eh

Also, I don't visit BS's board but from the press releases they only say that they may release one, but it won't be with the game. BS has used that language before and in some cases those things never appeared (animation editor for starters).

While you're right that it's smart to wait for one if you think it's important , and that BS has broken promises before, they also have a pretty good record of working with and supporting mods and modders. Anyway, the point was as far as Bethesda is concerned their stance is that they want to provide one... which is really the only official word we have from them on this... even if they can't be trusted.

So I don't get why the belief that a SDK will not be release is so unreasonable.

It isn't unreasonable, it's unfounded... not based on any real facts... just conjecture and idle speculation, even more so if you're talking about the belief that it won't be released because they want to make more DLC money.

Bethesda did get kicked in the nuts with Oblivion because people were able to mod the clothes off the models and "create" nudity that was actually locked out in the retail game.

So who knows...maybe they will wait a little while until after the game is out, so the ratings board sticks with it's initial rating, then they release the mod tools. They shouldn't have to deal with the burden of what people make in their game regardless, but maybe they are trying to CYA.

 

[Matt K]

Bethesda did get kicked in the nuts with Oblivion because people were able to mod the clothes off the models and "create" nudity that was actually locked out in the retail game.

So who knows...maybe they will wait a little while until after the game is out, so the ratings board sticks with it's initial rating, then they release the mod tools. They shouldn't have to deal with the burden of what people make in their game regardless, but maybe they are trying to CYA.

Yup, BS got re-rated to "M" due to the nudity patch. Although the issue seemed to be that it was because the content was simply unlocked and not added that caused the re-rating. It also spawned the debacle where BS referred to modders as hacker (in a very contemptible way).

To your second point, I will add that for Morrowind, BS released an animation editor/creator (I think that's what it was) so when Oblivion came out everyone expected this to be released as well. When it didn't come early on the rationale was that it took a while (around a year I think) for Morrowind's to be released. Finally, almost 2 years after release and constant asking the devs finally came out and said that they would have never been able to release that tool and knew so from the start.

So it's not unheard of for BS to string the community along. After their complete overhaul in community relations (as in "go f yourself, you don't matter to us") I found it best to be pessimistic about anything they say/do and wait to see if they are actually telling the truth.

PS. I use the acronym BS simply because it's shorter than spelling out Bethesdasoft every time I type it (which is a lot). The fact that it's also shorthand for bullshit (pardon my language) which I do think they are full of is coincidental.

 

[Anani Masu]

Can you actually provide links for that shit you posted? Because that's not really how I remember things going down.

 

[Jesuit]

Thanks for the insight guys .

I did some quick searching and found this.

Quick Summary:
BS was supposed to disclose all locked/hidden content in the game for rating and they didn't, they also downplayed the violence and gore. Apparently BS actually had the balls to lie to the ESRB... that's impressively slimy.

Your pessimism completely understood, I wouldn't worry too much about the ratings angle discouraging an SDK release though.

 

[Anani Masu]

BEHOLD THE HORRIFYING LOCKED CONTENT!

Barbie doll nudity ohh no!

As for the violence thing, there is a mutilated zombie before you even finish character creation. I'm more willing to believe that the ESRB just screwed up and realized it should have been M all along and used the nudity as an excuse to cover their asses