Fallout 3 Preview with Pete Hines on TVG

[JR Jansen]

Why do you have only 95 posts? :<

Because he refused to merge his old account. Talk him into it!

It's not so much that i refuse to merge the old account with the new one. It's just that i don't care. I don't look at post counts. It says absolutely nothing about the person posting and/or the post itself.

 

[The Dutch Ghost]

Bah, most modern games are overrated, besides you missed the whole point of my post.

It's only one word away from star wars fan to star trek fan, and for the love of god I don't want to mentally associate myself as a shut in trekkie, that's about as low as I think is possible to go without delving into anything illegal.

(apologies to any star wars or star trek fans before we start getting into a warzone here over the two titles )

Actually as a Star Trek fan I understand the feeling, I can't stand modern Trek because of the refocus to attract the casual audience.

It wasn't that much science fiction to begin with but now its even worse.

 

[Sorrow]

The main reason that developers use lame tutorials that are included in the game to teach you the ropes, is that adding one dumbed down quest in the beginning of the game, using resources they've already developed, is cheaper than hiring a competent writer and graphic artist to make a quality manual and then having to print all of that full color media for each copy of the game that gets packaged.

Note that a tutorial doesn't have to be in the main game - it can be a separate section of the game like in FT or Close Combat.

 

[Crowfoot]

The main reason that developers use lame tutorials that are included in the game to teach you the ropes, is that adding one dumbed down quest in the beginning of the game, using resources they've already developed, is cheaper than hiring a competent writer and graphic artist to make a quality manual and then having to print all of that full color media for each copy of the game that gets packaged.

Not sure about modern games, but the Black Isle rpgs went to the trouble of doing both. The Fallout 2 manual had a section on how to tackle the Temple Of Trials, the Torment manual had a map of The Mortuary and a brief tutorial, as did the manual for Icewind Dale.

Not being a gamer with Mad Skilz, I actually enjoy a brief tutorial where I can ease myself into the mechanics. Particularly with Fallout 3 as I haven't a clue what Bethesda games play like, and i wouldn't mind chilling for a while before being thrown head first into the howling mutant boomfest that it promises to be.

 

[Sorrow]

Not being a gamer with Mad Skilz, I actually enjoy a brief tutorial where I can ease myself into the mechanics. Particularly with Fallout 3 as I haven't a clue what Bethesda games play like, and i wouldn't mind chilling for a while before being thrown head first into the howling mutant boomfest that it promises to be.

Yes, but it can be done outside the main game. Tutorials in game mean that you have to do them every time you play it, even when you know how the game works. Also, they are fourth wall breakers.

 

[Crowfoot]

Yes, but it can be done outside the main game. Tutorials in game mean that you have to do them every time you play it, even when you know how the game works. Also, they are fourth wall breakers.

It's true, there are many games where tutorials are implemented somewhat ham-handedly. I like the way Baldur's Gate did it, by having the gatewarden ask you if you want to spend some time training with Obe The Illusionist. It worked because (1) it was completely optional, and (2) because it was integrated into the gameworld.

 

[Kyuu]

Tutorials in game mean that you have to do them every time you play it, even when you know how the game works.

Absolutely. Tutorials should always be completely optional, whether this means through an option in Baldur's Gate like Crowfoot described, or simply having them be separate from the main game.

Also, I really love it when a developer puts extra effort into making the tutorial actually enjoyable. There have been a few notable tutorial levels that I actually repeated multiple times because I enjoyed them so much. The two that come to mind is the tutorial level from one of the first Tenchu games, as well as one from a Ghost in the Shell game on the original Playstation.

 

[Chertan]

Sometimes I think devs want to offend me when they put stuff like "press W to move forward, very good!" in their game.

Then do you're self a favor and steer clear of Black and White 2.

Not only was the tutorial moronic, but it's also more anal then most 80's text based adventures

 

[whirlingdervish]

Also, I really love it when a developer puts extra effort into making the tutorial actually enjoyable. There have been a few notable tutorial levels that I actually repeated multiple times because I enjoyed them so much. The two that come to mind is the tutorial level from one of the first Tenchu games, as well as one from a Ghost in the Shell game on the original Playstation.

That would probably be Tenchu 2: Birth of the Stealth Assasins.
The game also came with an intricate level editor which pretty much left infinite hours of gameplay after you'd beaten the game with all 3 characters.. (only one of these i've ever seen on a PSX game)

The developers went the extra mile with everything in that one..

including a nice manual, and a ninja-dog.

 

[Morbus]

I liked the tutorial level of KotOR2. For some reason, I find it very enjoyable, don't know why.

 

[Kyuu]

That would probably be Tenchu 2: Birth of the Stealth Assasins.

Aye, that's the one.

I liked the tutorial level of KotOR2. For some reason, I find it very enjoyable, don't know why.

You mean the astroid-mining facility (I think it's called Peragus?)? That's another good way to tackle it, is just by making the beginning of the game itself gently ease you into things. Unfortunately, it's easy to muck up, and just make into a mind-numbingly boring, unskippable beginning.

 

[TheWesDude]

i look at it this way.

the more ham-handed the tutorial is, the less chance to replay.

if its optional and in-game, thats an easy one to skip, easier to replay.

if its totally optional outside of the main game, thats an easy one to skip, easier to replay.

if its forced and required to play the game and its very short, more annoying, less chance to replay.

if its forced and required to play the game and far too long than it needs to be, most likely never replay.

for me, how good a game is is depending on how replayable it is. if i can spend $50 on a game and keep playing it intermixed with my other games untill the next game comes out. if its not replayable, then the chances are lower ill pick up that developers game again.

 

[Morbus]

You mean the astroid-mining facility (I think it's called Peragus?)? That's another good way to tackle it, is just by making the beginning of the game itself gently ease you into things. Unfortunately, it's easy to muck up, and just make into a mind-numbingly boring, unskippable beginning.

No, that level is part of the game itself. I mean the real tutorial where you control the small robot in the damaged ship.

 

[Stag]

Oh man, I hated that thing. That's why God put a "skip" button at the start of that level.

 

[Morbus]

dont kill me please

 

[Kyuu]

Oh! Right, I totally forgot about that. Hey, it's been a while.

But yeah, I liked that one as well. And it's skippable!

 

[junkevil]

Yes, but it can be done outside the main game. Tutorials in game mean that you have to do them every time you play it, even when you know how the game works. Also, they are fourth wall breakers.

yeah, but keep in mind that bethesda will give you the option to save just before entering the real game and they will give you an option to completely redesign your character. thats how oblivion worked, you saved just before exiting the sewers. you wont have to play the tutorial every time.

anyways, it is a total 4th wall breaker, but in the age where a lot of movies make it a point to have a scene where the actors purposely break that wall, is it really unexpected?

 

[Black]

I dislike tutorials in general but do you remeber Deus Ex training? Damn, that was something. Skippable, well made and fitted the game and storyline

 

[Ashmo]

The difference is that movies break the fourth wall ON PURPOSE, whereas games only do it because the developers can't think of a decent way not to.

That's the difference between art and sorting your garbage.