Fallout 3 tidbits

[shihonage]

If you read what I said earlier, I used the gaming websites in an entirely different contest. Once again, "not being familiar with a confusing neologism that is not used by game critics and not even mentioned by the indiscriminate garbage bin of encyclopedia that is Wikipedia?" How dense can that foreign language speaking guy be, really?

"Foreign language speaking guy" ?

From your reply to my post it was clear exactly in which context you used gaming sites - it was to back up the "non-use" of the JRPG acronym, as if somehow this implies that such category of games does not exist.

"Clearly defined" aside, would you tell me the genre of the hybrids, please? cawRPG? jawRPG? No genre? Then what kind of classification is it and why would a serious developer even acknowledge it, let alone use it himself?

I don't know - why are you trying to classify them ? I'm not.

I don't own a "next-gen" console but I do track their game releases all the time, and it would seem that a good half of recent and upcoming RPGs falls into that crossbreed category of yours.

This doesn't mean that there aren't tons of JRPGs out there still being made.

A clear-cut categorization that is only usable for the 80's and 90's? Nice. I'll put it on my shelf of archaisms, next to "graphic adventure", "shooter", and "interactive movie".

Shooters still exist, by the way. Some of them became simpler with time, actually.

Its abundant cutscenes, combat pausing,

Very common.

jRPG-like world and level structure

Arguable.

, emphasized linear storyline,

Very common.

simplistic evil archenemy,

Very common.

and rather jRPG-like art style and inventory design could suggest otherwise.

That's a bit grasping, no ?

In other news, Mass Effect has sound. JRPGs have sound. Therefore Mass Effect is a JRPG.

How exactly it is more similar to PnP-based Baldur's Gate than it is to Final Fintasy XII? I bet the only reason people don't call it a jRPG is because the DVD cover doesn't have a bunch of Hiragana characters stamped on it. Slightly emasculate some of the male characters, rename the whole thing into Massu Effectu, and, what do you know, you got a "clearly defined" jRPG on your hands. Kuso? You betcha.

If I wanted to make Mass Effect into a JRPG, I would change the protagonist to an 11 year old boy with spiky hair and angular, cell-shaded graphics. Possibly living on a floating island. I'd create a separate combat engine that kicks in every time there's a battle and then kicks you out back into the "real world". I'd remove all Mass Effect's attempts at creating a faint illusion of non-linearity, and then possibly introduce some kind of collectable furries.

 

[Ranne]

The substance of my earlier gaming site quote, by the way, is as follows:

Moreover, venerable gaming sites...don't even use the jRPG/wRPG classification... Wikipedia doesn't have a jRPG page... I'm not exactly arguing that jRPG is an entirely inappropriate label... but calling somebody dense for not using or knowing an ambiguously defined, mostly localized neologism?

And if you really want to continue this discussion in an intelligible manner, try making an actual declarative statement now and then. As amusing as they are, your "common, common, very common" and "is that what you think, eh" (I paraphrase, of course) are not particularly argumentative, refutative or conclusive.

 

[shihonage]

Your paraphrasing of my statements does not carry over the point I was making with them. If you remain purposely obtuse and instead of seeing my point insist on picking on the manner in which I made the said point, this argument is indeed moot.

The point was, by the way, that your attempt to "confuse" Mass Effect with JRPG doesn't work, because in order to do that you started to stretch the JRPG toward it, into something so inclusive that it loses any semblance of definition.

 

[Ranne]

Again, what would the definition be? You're avoiding my legitimate questions with knee-jerk reactionary responses. Go ahead, explain to me why Mass Effect is categorically not a jRPG and what the actual (unambiguous) definition of jRPG is. I'm all ears.

 

[shihonage]

My definition of JRPG was done earlier in the thread, and as for connecting the identity of Mass Effect to JRPG, the burden of proof remains on you, because you were the one to step forward with such an incredible claim.

In other news, this conversation has degraded into regurgitation and GOTO statements, so I am bowing out of it now.

 

[Wooz]

Aw, come on. If you guys don't make an effort, this goes to the Vats.

We're in no rush, you can juxtapose the jRPG definition next to ME's features to make your point.

 

[shihonage]

I don't know if you're being tongue-in-cheek, Wooz, but here's a recap:

My earlier definition of JRPG in this thread:

JRPGs feature anime characters, railroaded story, and combat sequences that are jarringly separated from the main gameplay in their own little combat engine.

Mass Effect's comparison to that definition:

Railroaded story: pass
Separate combat engine: fail
Anime characters: fail

Therefore, Mass Effect is not a JRPG.

There you have it.

 

[UncannyGarlic]

I think most people actually call those "SRPGs", or "Strategy RPGs" e.g. the Fire Emblem series. I love 'em too.

Anyway I'd be happy if we could all just stop sticking random letters in front of "RPG". I just like good games, I don't give a crap what genre they belong to.

There's an argument on Wikipedia about that but TRPG is the term I've always seen and heard.

Wouldn't those simply be turn-based tactical games (JA, X-COM, etc)? I mean, I can't really recall any games that would fall neither into this category or the "proper" RPG category (of the dungeon-crawling sort, a la Wizardry and the like).

No. These games combine JRPG mechanics (most use a job system of some sort) with TB tactical combat. They are a blend of the two genres and are prevalent enough to be their own genre.

Mass Effect, KOTOR, Kingdom Hearts, Septerra Core, and dozens of other titles blend both genres into something so unrecognizable that even a professional can't really classify them without a shadow of a doubt.

How does Kingdom Hearts combine western RPG elements with JRPG elements? It's a RT JRPG with hack-n-slash combat. Yes, the worlds can be completed in any order but the story is linear and unchangable (you can't change or from multiple paths, the story is always identical). That said, just because a game isn't from Japan doesn't mean that it can't be a JRPG, it's a genre descriptor not an origin one. Also note that games that blend genres do just that, they blend genres and thus do not belong to any one genre.

JRPGs were played out for me back in the Phantasy Star days.

I hate games that do that because it's hardly a game at that point (one of the reasons that FFXII is a giant, steaming pile).

If you read what I said earlier, I used the gaming websites in an entirely different contest. Once again, "not being familiar with a confusing neologism that is not used by game critics and not even mentioned by the indiscriminate garbage bin of encyclopedia that is Wikipedia?" How dense can that foreign language speaking guy be, really?

It's on Wikipedia, granted it's a piece of the console RPG page (never heard of the term CRPG meaning that until wikipedia) but it does have a spot on it. That said, the C(onsole)RPG page should actually probably be changed to JRPG as the main title and CRPG as the alternate.

Its abundant cutscenes, combat pausing, jRPG-like world and level structure, emphasized linear storyline, simplistic evil archenemy, and rather jRPG-like art style and inventory design could suggest otherwise. How exactly it is more similar to PnP-based Baldur's Gate than it is to Final Fintasy XII? I bet the only reason people don't call it a jRPG is because the DVD cover doesn't have a bunch of Hiragana characters stamped on it. Slightly emasculate some of the male characters, rename the whole thing into Massu Effectu, and, what do you know, you got a "clearly defined" jRPG on your hands. Kuso? You betcha.

FFXII is a singleplayer MMORPG, it's only common element with JRPGs is the linear story which, again, is not genre defining by itself.

JRPGs feature anime characters, railroaded story, and combat sequences that are jarringly separated from the main gameplay in their own little combat engine.

I'd argue that anime characters isn't a requirement. I'd say that a JRPG is basically a game with characters with stats (though as a subgenre of the RPG genre this is redundant), a description of character development should be included but concisely wording it isn't easy (EDIT), a linear story, and combat that takes place in a different screen than movement (though Chrono Trigger [only JRPG which doesn't follow this rule that I know of] suggests that a more complex description may be in order).

 

[Brother None]

If the term is not prevalent among Japanese developers, there is nothing unprofessional about not knowing it.

Luckily I didn't say there was, I just said he sounds like he's out of touch with Western markets both in being shocked about Fallout 3 being a success, Fallout 3 being defined an RPG and never having heard of the term jRPG

How much it is his task to be in touch with non-Japanese markets is another discussion wholesale. Maybe he simply doesn't feel the need, I don't know, I'm just saying what's apparent.

I suppose this might be a sort of dividing line between RPGs having more in-depth interaction with the game world and combat-oriented ones. Would be a very needed distinction as well. From Greg Costikyan's "I Have No Words & I Must Design", published in '94:

That's not a bad comparison at all. Hell, come to think of it, HeroQuest and the Gold Box RPGs are pretty similar in how they play out.

But as you said, it's pretty important to realize that just because games can't be perfect pen & paper RPG emulations, that doesn't mean this genre is impossible. That's an argument that pops up every now and again but it makes no more sense than saying that just because you can't imitate facial animations perfectly you shouldn't at all.

 

[Bodybag]

It sounds like the only thing we can agree on is that jRPG is a term of derision, which is probably why Jappy McJapperson never made the connection (Japanese culture is internally recognized as superior, you see).

 

[UncannyGarlic]

Japanese culture is internally recognized as superior, you see

What 1st world culture isn't?

 

[DOF_power]

Using mainstream game review sites as some sort of arbiter device ? Talk about ineffectual arguments.

If you read what I said earlier, I used the gaming websites in an entirely different contest. Once again, "not being familiar with a confusing neologism that is not used by game critics and not even mentioned by the indiscriminate garbage bin of encyclopedia that is Wikipedia?" How dense can that foreign language speaking guy be, really?

Eh, again, existence of hybrids doesn't eliminates JRPG as a clearly defined category.

"Clearly defined" aside, would you tell me the genre of the hybrids, please? cawRPG? jawRPG? No genre? Then what kind of classification is it and why would a serious developer even acknowledge it, let alone use it himself? I don't own a "next-gen" console but I do track their game releases all the time, and it would seem that a good half of recent and upcoming RPGs falls into that crossbreed category of yours. A clear-cut categorization that is only usable for the 80's and 90's? Nice. I'll put it on my shelf of archaisms, next to "graphic adventure", "shooter", and "interactive movie".

Mass Effect is not a JRPG (it only satisfies the linearity parameter, which is extremely common),

Its abundant cutscenes, combat pausing, jRPG-like world and level structure, emphasized linear storyline, simplistic evil archenemy, and rather jRPG-like art style and inventory design could suggest otherwise. How exactly it is more similar to PnP-based Baldur's Gate than it is to Final Fintasy XII? I bet the only reason people don't call it a jRPG is because the DVD cover doesn't have a bunch of Hiragana characters stamped on it. Slightly emasculate some of the male characters, rename the whole thing into Massu Effectu, and, what do you know, you got a "clearly defined" jRPG on your hands. Kuso? You betcha.

Regarding Mass Effect, you do have valid points but:

- combat pausing is possible on the PC version not the console one; furthermore except for Bethesda games and a few others like System Shock II and Deus Ex many/most crpgs/wrpgs (of old times at least) had some sort of pausing.

( Combat pausing BG style and/or TBS Fallout 1/2/T style are not rpg elements, they are electronic-warboard/dungeon-crawler relics that where used and abused by both the so called jprgs and the crpgs.
Fallout 1 and Deus Ex pushed forward the genre by allowing the player to avoid combat altogether (these are the games I know of), but that was not/never the case with Bioware games where you where always forced to fight and crawl.
Sadly this is also the case with Fallout 2 and 3. )

- Baldur's Gate 1 and 2 also had cut scenes, Mass Effect has dialog/conversations that look like cut-scenes. The difference is that in Mass Effect you do interact not just watch a movie and there are (very) limited choices and consequences.

- the single dimension evil character, well that's another Bioware characteristic and common in more then one crpg/wrpg.



So in retrospect Bioware games (and other crpgs/wrpgs) always had things in common with the so called jrpgs (more precisely with dungeon crawlers) and never quite pushed the genre like Fallout 1 and Deus Ex.
Mass Effect is a dumb-ed down Bioware game witch indeed resembles a jprg but goes somewhat above them.