Fallout 3 worth waiting for
- Thread starter Brother None
- Start date
MistWeaver
First time out of the vault
Ukrainian, goddamnit..
Probably No Absolutes # 2
Probably No Absolutes # 2
While visiting 'our brothers from another planet', I saw a routine coverage of this Tom Chick The Apologist.
http://www.duckandcover.cx/forums/viewtopic.php?t=21565
Stimulus response, no intention today of editorializing about the dysfunctional game industry market place.
Read the lines and then next I knew I had commented.
Got even minded reply.
And replied to the reply.
Am posting these @ NMA, since the thoughts started here.
//////////////////
Codependent Relationship
This writer evokes a comment on commercial relationships.
No patience for the hype today.
The patter of the sideshow / midway barkers does not entertain today.
The FO3 content means nothing today.
The real strip tease today?
The predatory relationship is now hilariously naked. This day.
No absolutes here, just my solitary antidotal commiserations.
If this does not apply to your life's experience, good for you, play through.
Game corporations do what they think they have to do to make money.
Game reviewers do what they think they have to do to 'earn' the exclusive info from game corporations.
Go along to get along, the old boy network.
Some might even believe their own rhetorical fantasy about nex gen immersion.
Nex gen immersion, a self induced coma while we are fed what to think, see, hear, experience.
In this cycle of victimization, the consumer is misinformed and dunned down by jargon and bandwagon propaganda.
At some point in this abusive relationship one runs out of -- words --.
When does the RIGHT to make money, justify dishonesty?
When one doesn't get caught.
At times I just run out of words.
Game corporations lie.
Game reviewers --> game industry journalists lie.
Money justifies all acts.
Even when caught.
They win, we lose.
These people are not our friends.
They are social and financial predators.
We are the prey.
Don't wear the 'rose colored glasses' that are forever pushed on our faces.
You and I are responsible for our life's experience, don't buy the third party market-eering.
As eternal as Latin " sine cera ", " without wax", a.k.a. not cheating.
Let the buyer, the reader , beware.
And as Dante, 'Abandon All' *Expectations* 'Ye Who Enter Here'.
[Will post this spurious editorial @ similar NMA thread , but you my DAC darlings got in first, thanks for nurturing my 'go to hell attitude. This day.
]
4too
///////////////////
Probably No Absolutes
Smilely:
Yes, must be some utilitarian merit for honest toil, but it's this continual pretense, this eternal wink of the eye.
Fatigued by the smart ass con men pushing their predatory conspiracy.
Let's have a game that is just a game, and not a media convergent market value enhancer.
Certainly possible, honest weavers of games and spinners of marketing. why I title this "Probably No Absolutes".
And.
As a whole, life experience witnesses ... lies.
Any particular lie, that call is .. ah ... you know ... viewer discretionary.
Bethesda could be very well be creating a game to sell in the box,
and not just playing 'the game' (out side the box) to sell the box.
Time and marketing will tell.
4too
/////////////
Absolutes?
All?
Avoid ALL confrontation?
Feel ALL warm and fuzzy?
Not this day, all I could say is ... they lie.
They are not our friends.
Who is they? You pick them.
Again, don't doubt there are exceptions to any rule, and,
and there comes a time when one must fling absolutes into the wind to erase all the mind noise and clutter of the competing ideologues.
They are not our friends, and they lie.
This day, don't trouble too much about who you know is honest.
Guess that being sorry about being duped is part of our hard earned conditioning to be compliant consumers.
This day say, "they lie."
Amazing what can come out when one stops apologizing for being the victim.
We are misinformed, misdirected, ... lied to, every day. Return the favor.
Have a good one!
4too
Probably No Absolutes # 2
While visiting 'our brothers from another planet', I saw a routine coverage of this Tom Chick The Apologist.
http://www.duckandcover.cx/forums/viewtopic.php?t=21565
Stimulus response, no intention today of editorializing about the dysfunctional game industry market place.
Read the lines and then next I knew I had commented.
Got even minded reply.
And replied to the reply.
Am posting these @ NMA, since the thoughts started here.
//////////////////
Codependent Relationship
This writer evokes a comment on commercial relationships.
No patience for the hype today.
The patter of the sideshow / midway barkers does not entertain today.
The FO3 content means nothing today.
The real strip tease today?
The predatory relationship is now hilariously naked. This day.
No absolutes here, just my solitary antidotal commiserations.
If this does not apply to your life's experience, good for you, play through.
Game corporations do what they think they have to do to make money.
Game reviewers do what they think they have to do to 'earn' the exclusive info from game corporations.
Go along to get along, the old boy network.
Some might even believe their own rhetorical fantasy about nex gen immersion.
Nex gen immersion, a self induced coma while we are fed what to think, see, hear, experience.
In this cycle of victimization, the consumer is misinformed and dunned down by jargon and bandwagon propaganda.
At some point in this abusive relationship one runs out of -- words --.
When does the RIGHT to make money, justify dishonesty?
When one doesn't get caught.
At times I just run out of words.
Game corporations lie.
Game reviewers --> game industry journalists lie.
Money justifies all acts.
Even when caught.
They win, we lose.
These people are not our friends.
They are social and financial predators.
We are the prey.
Don't wear the 'rose colored glasses' that are forever pushed on our faces.
You and I are responsible for our life's experience, don't buy the third party market-eering.
As eternal as Latin " sine cera ", " without wax", a.k.a. not cheating.
Let the buyer, the reader , beware.
And as Dante, 'Abandon All' *Expectations* 'Ye Who Enter Here'.
[Will post this spurious editorial @ similar NMA thread , but you my DAC darlings got in first, thanks for nurturing my 'go to hell attitude. This day.
]4too
///////////////////
Probably No Absolutes
Smilely:
Yes, must be some utilitarian merit for honest toil, but it's this continual pretense, this eternal wink of the eye.
Fatigued by the smart ass con men pushing their predatory conspiracy.
Let's have a game that is just a game, and not a media convergent market value enhancer.
Certainly possible, honest weavers of games and spinners of marketing. why I title this "Probably No Absolutes".
And.
As a whole, life experience witnesses ... lies.
Any particular lie, that call is .. ah ... you know ... viewer discretionary.
Bethesda could be very well be creating a game to sell in the box,
and not just playing 'the game' (out side the box) to sell the box.
Time and marketing will tell.
4too
/////////////
Absolutes?
All?
Avoid ALL confrontation?
Feel ALL warm and fuzzy?
Not this day, all I could say is ... they lie.
They are not our friends.
Who is they? You pick them.
Again, don't doubt there are exceptions to any rule, and,
and there comes a time when one must fling absolutes into the wind to erase all the mind noise and clutter of the competing ideologues.
They are not our friends, and they lie.
This day, don't trouble too much about who you know is honest.
Guess that being sorry about being duped is part of our hard earned conditioning to be compliant consumers.
This day say, "they lie."
Amazing what can come out when one stops apologizing for being the victim.
We are misinformed, misdirected, ... lied to, every day. Return the favor.
Have a good one!
4too
zioburosky13
Vault Senior Citizen
programmer.craig said:
Which is just like the previous cycle. Back in the 90-era, most people proclaimed RPG is dead due to un-impressive and same old Dungeon and Dragon game kept getting released at that time.
When Fallout was released there was nothing like it on the market,
except Wasteland which is also published by Interplay in the early 90s. Althought both game did have similar dungeon crawling experience game play, they ditched the fantasy and used a sci-fi setting,
which made both game a memorable piece of work.
Consider today's 'CRPG' market are facing the same problem (lackluster story and gameplay), I wonder if there will be another similar situation happen again.
Revisionist History
Revisionist History
At the Codex linked to: http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/?p=1856
Read this copy, looks like the check list, the bullet points for the Bethesda media marketing guerillas.
Jim Rossigoni:
After the flaws of Oblivion, and the lies in it's marketing, have long been publicly documented,
{Radiant AI, Radiant AI, and Radiant AI, did I forget to mention Radiant AI?}
Jim R. attempts a revisionist stab at damage control for his patrons @ Bethesda.
Evoking the lure of nostalgia for a game that is only 2? years old, this marketer romances the reader with sweet tales that Oblivion wasn't so bad,
and so kiss's the pain away so that Oblivion is now all good.
Another fairy tale.
I am not convinced about the motivations.
For this is advertising.
The kicker to this love letter to Bethesda, is the desire that FO3 BE, BE, BE, ----> Oblivion with Guns.
Tom Chick @ http://fidgit.com/archives/2008/05/2008-the-five-worth-waiting-fo.php#more
is touting the party line that FO3 should be Oblivion with Guns.
T.C.:
Once upon a marketing time, FO3 was NOT to be Oblivion with Guns. That may have been fed to manipulate one demographic.
Now we see the schooling of another group of gamers.
This may be the drum beat message: {Hey drum beat media saturation sold WMD to the USA!}
Oblivion with Guns
Oblivion with Guns
Oblivion with Guns
as the Bethesda marketing machine and the third party market-eers like Jim R. and Tom C., push to indoctrinate the consumer on what is good,
what to like,
and what to buy.
Prurient persuasion.
Will this ever be left to what FO3 really is?
Will we ever know what "is" is, without a lawyer, and an accountant, and a PR VP?
{Oh, and a game trade writer to massage us into their group think.}
Perhaps truth is too pedestrian, no accelerated rate of 'prophet' for the ecstasy of the company controller.
The deck must always be stacked, for the 'House' must always win. {Hey no fair, that's an absolute!}
Consumer: deer mesmerized in the headlights. Road kill FTW. The win-win for Bethesda-Zenimax and the trade press fellow travelers!
Video game marketing, media converging with the' trader' press, grooming the consumer to love a lie.
4too
Revisionist History
At the Codex linked to: http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/?p=1856
Read this copy, looks like the check list, the bullet points for the Bethesda media marketing guerillas.
Jim Rossigoni:
After the flaws of Oblivion, and the lies in it's marketing, have long been publicly documented,
{Radiant AI, Radiant AI, and Radiant AI, did I forget to mention Radiant AI?}
Jim R. attempts a revisionist stab at damage control for his patrons @ Bethesda.
Evoking the lure of nostalgia for a game that is only 2? years old, this marketer romances the reader with sweet tales that Oblivion wasn't so bad,
and so kiss's the pain away so that Oblivion is now all good.
Another fairy tale.
I am not convinced about the motivations.
For this is advertising.
The kicker to this love letter to Bethesda, is the desire that FO3 BE, BE, BE, ----> Oblivion with Guns.
Tom Chick @ http://fidgit.com/archives/2008/05/2008-the-five-worth-waiting-fo.php#more
is touting the party line that FO3 should be Oblivion with Guns.
T.C.:
Once upon a marketing time, FO3 was NOT to be Oblivion with Guns. That may have been fed to manipulate one demographic.
Now we see the schooling of another group of gamers.
This may be the drum beat message: {Hey drum beat media saturation sold WMD to the USA!}
Oblivion with Guns
Oblivion with Guns
Oblivion with Guns
as the Bethesda marketing machine and the third party market-eers like Jim R. and Tom C., push to indoctrinate the consumer on what is good,
what to like,
and what to buy.
Prurient persuasion.
Will this ever be left to what FO3 really is?
Will we ever know what "is" is, without a lawyer, and an accountant, and a PR VP?
{Oh, and a game trade writer to massage us into their group think.}
Perhaps truth is too pedestrian, no accelerated rate of 'prophet' for the ecstasy of the company controller.
The deck must always be stacked, for the 'House' must always win. {Hey no fair, that's an absolute!}
Consumer: deer mesmerized in the headlights. Road kill FTW. The win-win for Bethesda-Zenimax and the trade press fellow travelers!
Video game marketing, media converging with the' trader' press, grooming the consumer to love a lie.
4too
Dracon M'Alkir
Vault Senior Citizen
Silence, insect.
Quest For Literacy!
Quest For Literacy!
Honest Wooz,
'woiking' on finding that one true conversational voice.
Liked what Virginia Woolf had to say about personal voice in 'Orlando',
and was surprised what Douglas Adams had to say about being literate in 'Salmon Of Doubt'.
Still a kid when writing. Still am hooked on the sound of my own guns,
so it's difficult to maintain the graphic aspect of writing for the web page.
Reading comprehension will not improve with spacing and theatrical punctuation tricks alone.
Got to hammer the words into a cooperative comprehensible flow, spell check and rewrite, ...
accented by punctual bang / vocabulary flash / conceptual panache.
I know, more consequential dialogue, less bloom. Writing teh harwd!
4too
Quest For Literacy!
Honest Wooz,
'woiking' on finding that one true conversational voice.
Liked what Virginia Woolf had to say about personal voice in 'Orlando',
and was surprised what Douglas Adams had to say about being literate in 'Salmon Of Doubt'.
Still a kid when writing. Still am hooked on the sound of my own guns,
so it's difficult to maintain the graphic aspect of writing for the web page.
Reading comprehension will not improve with spacing and theatrical punctuation tricks alone.
Got to hammer the words into a cooperative comprehensible flow, spell check and rewrite, ...
accented by punctual bang / vocabulary flash / conceptual panache.
I know, more consequential dialogue, less bloom. Writing teh harwd!
4too
Bodybag
Look, Ma! Two Heads!
Wow, speaking of revisionist history:
Hundreds of hours? I'm suddenly curious to see this unbelievable list of games you're now going to provide us with...
... since none of these games [besides BG and the expansion] comes even close to that claim.
Which is pretty good, if we're talking just the barebones main quest stuff with few to none of the side quests completed. That's already longer than Fallout, for example.
programmer.craig said:
Hundreds of hours? I'm suddenly curious to see this unbelievable list of games you're now going to provide us with...
... since none of these games [besides BG and the expansion] comes even close to that claim.
Which is pretty good, if we're talking just the barebones main quest stuff with few to none of the side quests completed. That's already longer than Fallout, for example.
Phil the Nuka-Cola Dude
Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!
DarkLegacy said:
You read the corresponding article for that comic right?
Tycho said:
programmer.craig
First time out of the vault
Bodybag,
Wow, speaking of revisionist history:
Starting to understand why you guys catch so much hostility from the rest of the gaming community. Did I shoot your dog or something?
Hundreds of hours? I'm suddenly curious to see this unbelievable list of games you're now going to provide us with...
Actually, pick just about any major RPG made before 1992, and talk to somebody who played it, and you'll find that it they spent over 100 hours on it. 100 hours used to be about average, dude. You'd know that, if you'd been playing RPGs back then, right? So, you just show up here and want toa ct like you know something, eh? Whatever.
... since none of these games [besides BG and the expansion] comes even close to that claim.
The hell they don't. Ultima Underworld was short by teh standards of the day, but the others? No, I don't think so. Show me somebody who finished Ultima 7 or Might and Magic 3 in less than a hundred hours, who wasn't making a concerted effort to zip through the game. Or Wizardy 7, for that matter.
Which is pretty good, if we're talking just the barebones main quest stuff with few to none of the side quests completed. That's already longer than Fallout, for example.
It's not "pretty good", and I'm not talking about "barebones main quest stuff". Most RPGs tehse days don't even HAVE anything but "barebones main quests stuff" anyway (KOTOR I + II are good examples of this, the whole game is a scripted interactive movie from start to finish, with the player just along for the ride). But a 50 hour game (including all the side quests) is called "epic" now. Look at what they say about Mass Effect, for an example of that. An "epic" game. At 40 to 50 hours game play, total. Epic, my ass. The only reason anyone takes longer than 30 hours to finish a game like Neverwinter Nights 2 is because tehy are spenduing a lot of time looking at pixelated breasts and drooling all over their keyboard...
That isn't teh way CRPGs used to be. I especially dislike Bioware's habit of fast tracking people to the end-game. You get to what feels like the middle of the game and you suddenly realize you are about to get to teh grand finale. Even BG2, great as it was, did that. They monty-hauled your ass with a bunch of high end crap you'd never get to use, and then threw you into the big shwodown before you had a chance tos ay "WTF!?".
By teh way, I never said I thought Fallout 1 & 2 were of an acceptable length. They were MUCH too short. My only real compalint with those two games. I ceratinly wouldn't use the play time of FO2 as a benchmark standard for how long a game should be. Just so you know. And another thing... back in teh days when Ray of Bioware used to frequent the usenet crpg group, he talked some about why they liked to make shorter games, and why they feltit necessary to propel people to the finale. Apparrently, it was his belieff (and some of the interplay people, including Fallout's Chris) that too many people never finished games. So, I'm not just making this stuff up, You're the one coming up with your own version of PC game history, buddy.
Personally, I tend to walk away from games the point it becomes obvious the developers are trying to make me finish it. I like to play games at my own pace, and I used to actually play those 100 hour plus games all the way to the end. I rarely finish these short interactive movie games. Not even sure why I keep buying them. That's one thing I'll say for Bethesda... you can play their games as long as you want, and take as much time as you want. It's just too bad that they are so dull.
Wow, speaking of revisionist history:
Starting to understand why you guys catch so much hostility from the rest of the gaming community. Did I shoot your dog or something?
Hundreds of hours? I'm suddenly curious to see this unbelievable list of games you're now going to provide us with...
Actually, pick just about any major RPG made before 1992, and talk to somebody who played it, and you'll find that it they spent over 100 hours on it. 100 hours used to be about average, dude. You'd know that, if you'd been playing RPGs back then, right? So, you just show up here and want toa ct like you know something, eh? Whatever.
... since none of these games [besides BG and the expansion] comes even close to that claim.
The hell they don't. Ultima Underworld was short by teh standards of the day, but the others? No, I don't think so. Show me somebody who finished Ultima 7 or Might and Magic 3 in less than a hundred hours, who wasn't making a concerted effort to zip through the game. Or Wizardy 7, for that matter.
Which is pretty good, if we're talking just the barebones main quest stuff with few to none of the side quests completed. That's already longer than Fallout, for example.
It's not "pretty good", and I'm not talking about "barebones main quest stuff". Most RPGs tehse days don't even HAVE anything but "barebones main quests stuff" anyway (KOTOR I + II are good examples of this, the whole game is a scripted interactive movie from start to finish, with the player just along for the ride). But a 50 hour game (including all the side quests) is called "epic" now. Look at what they say about Mass Effect, for an example of that. An "epic" game. At 40 to 50 hours game play, total. Epic, my ass. The only reason anyone takes longer than 30 hours to finish a game like Neverwinter Nights 2 is because tehy are spenduing a lot of time looking at pixelated breasts and drooling all over their keyboard...
That isn't teh way CRPGs used to be. I especially dislike Bioware's habit of fast tracking people to the end-game. You get to what feels like the middle of the game and you suddenly realize you are about to get to teh grand finale. Even BG2, great as it was, did that. They monty-hauled your ass with a bunch of high end crap you'd never get to use, and then threw you into the big shwodown before you had a chance tos ay "WTF!?".
By teh way, I never said I thought Fallout 1 & 2 were of an acceptable length. They were MUCH too short. My only real compalint with those two games. I ceratinly wouldn't use the play time of FO2 as a benchmark standard for how long a game should be. Just so you know. And another thing... back in teh days when Ray of Bioware used to frequent the usenet crpg group, he talked some about why they liked to make shorter games, and why they feltit necessary to propel people to the finale. Apparrently, it was his belieff (and some of the interplay people, including Fallout's Chris) that too many people never finished games. So, I'm not just making this stuff up, You're the one coming up with your own version of PC game history, buddy.
Personally, I tend to walk away from games the point it becomes obvious the developers are trying to make me finish it. I like to play games at my own pace, and I used to actually play those 100 hour plus games all the way to the end. I rarely finish these short interactive movie games. Not even sure why I keep buying them. That's one thing I'll say for Bethesda... you can play their games as long as you want, and take as much time as you want. It's just too bad that they are so dull.
programmer.craig
First time out of the vault
... since none of these games [besides BG and the expansion] comes even close to that claim.
For your example, I'll use "Wasteland", since it was the predecessor (in spirit, at least) of teh fallout games. You played it, right? How long did it take you? Personally, I reckon I spent a good 5 or 6 hours just mining ore in a cave... lugging it back to twon to sell, going back to mine more... etc. I did that, so that I would be able to buy enough gear so that I wouldn't get wasted in 1 round flat teh first time I hit a random encounter when I wanted to travel to another (more dangerous) region. You see, old skool games were like that. You'd actually get killed dead - no second chances - in mere seconds if you didn't work very hard at doing what you needed to do to stay alive. Even Ultima 7 was like that... I recall spending a lot of time (several hours at least) searching for stuff around the castle in the beginning so I could buy weapons and armor sufficeint for me to leave the guarded areas and live. I think I got killed by a deer the first time I tried it
That's what I meant about the "more challenging" part of my comment. Not like that, now. At all. I can't remember teh last time I got killed in a computer game, even on the most difficult settings. And the inabilty of game companies to make games "difficult" these days is another issue that somebody needs to take up. but not me, I've said my peace.
For your example, I'll use "Wasteland", since it was the predecessor (in spirit, at least) of teh fallout games. You played it, right? How long did it take you? Personally, I reckon I spent a good 5 or 6 hours just mining ore in a cave... lugging it back to twon to sell, going back to mine more... etc. I did that, so that I would be able to buy enough gear so that I wouldn't get wasted in 1 round flat teh first time I hit a random encounter when I wanted to travel to another (more dangerous) region. You see, old skool games were like that. You'd actually get killed dead - no second chances - in mere seconds if you didn't work very hard at doing what you needed to do to stay alive. Even Ultima 7 was like that... I recall spending a lot of time (several hours at least) searching for stuff around the castle in the beginning so I could buy weapons and armor sufficeint for me to leave the guarded areas and live. I think I got killed by a deer the first time I tried it
That's what I meant about the "more challenging" part of my comment. Not like that, now. At all. I can't remember teh last time I got killed in a computer game, even on the most difficult settings. And the inabilty of game companies to make games "difficult" these days is another issue that somebody needs to take up. but not me, I've said my peace.
Phil the Nuka-Cola Dude
Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!
programmer.craig said:
Hostility from the rest of the gaming community? Elaborate.
craig said:
RPGs back then were typically text-based dos games.
I don't know about you, but I'll take 50 hours of high quality story/graphics/sound/gameplay with replayability over some text-based adventure that drags on for 100 hours, and offers no replayability whatsoever.
craig said:
Irony.
Oh, and for future reference: If you're going to try and sound well-informed, I recommend using the spellcheck function. The amount of times you misspelled 'the' as 'teh' and 'town' as 'twon' is depressing.
I'll address the rest of your posts once you get those spelling errors cleared up, and format those paragraphs.
Unkillable Cat
Mildly Dipped
craig said:
Do you know why 100+ hours had to be spent on RPG games back then? Because there was no such thing as a journal to help you keep track of what you had done or were doing, there was no in-game map, so you had to make one yourself, it was very easy to get lost in many of the games, and you could run into an encounter and be dead in less than 10 seconds, when you last saved over an hour ago.
On a more positive note, RPG games of old also had fiendish puzzles that requires some serious thinking to overcome, and some of the battles you could get into were hard as nails, but still great fun.
The majority of RPG games made before 1992 are feats of frustration, designed to drag on for hours on end because the grid-based statwhore nerds that programmed them wanted their revenge on the populous that scorned them.
Briosafreak
Lived Through the Heat Death
Some context here, Bodybag IS the rest of the community you are talking about
, but for an anti fallout fans guy he does start a lot of interesting discussions. Eventually all will end on a duel at sunset, though.
Bodybag
Look, Ma! Two Heads!
Are you taking about total aggregate time played, including replays/do overs/ect? Because I've easily spent over 200 total hours (which is the lowest possible number of 'hundreds.') on Tecmo Super Bowl, but it still only takes a few hours to beat, assuming you skip watch mode.
I notice you're now padding your playtimes with grindy type activites like "mining." Well of course Fallout was much too short for you - you're totally broken!
This also explains why you yearn for the massochistic trends of yesteryear when difficulty was artificially inflated by design decisions from people who were just learning how to make games. You'll find plenty of sympathetic ears for the old days around here though, so there's no need to keep thumping your oldskool gamer chest emblem so aggressively. Just understand that a huge majority of players feel gaming got better by leaving that shit in the past. Killed by a deer? Fuck you, Lord British!
I notice you're now padding your playtimes with grindy type activites like "mining." Well of course Fallout was much too short for you - you're totally broken!
This also explains why you yearn for the massochistic trends of yesteryear when difficulty was artificially inflated by design decisions from people who were just learning how to make games. You'll find plenty of sympathetic ears for the old days around here though, so there's no need to keep thumping your oldskool gamer chest emblem so aggressively. Just understand that a huge majority of players feel gaming got better by leaving that shit in the past. Killed by a deer? Fuck you, Lord British!