Fallout: Chicago (Includes Thorough Setting and Map)

[TorontoReign]

One thing. Technically, the MWBoS would have no clue who The Enclave are. They went east before FO2.

So, if say the Chicago Enclave was independant of FO2 Enclave, with no FEV plan for example, the MWBoS and Enclave could form some kind of alliance.

Just a thought.

I couldn't see the Enclave doing that. They don't play well with others.

 

[EvilBastrd]

One thing. Technically, the MWBoS would have no clue who The Enclave are. They went east before FO2.

So, if say the Chicago Enclave was independant of FO2 Enclave, with no FEV plan for example, the MWBoS and Enclave could form some kind of alliance.

Just a thought.

I couldn't see the Enclave doing that. They don't play well with others.

Well you need to think outside the box. The Enclave from FO2 is one representation of what I consider a pre-war militant shadow government, with memebers from the political, corporate, and private sector.

So, if there is say, another Enclave bunker, or bunkers, they would be cut off and independent from the Rig. In fact, their "goals" could actually more represent what Enclave plans in 2077 were like.

If Enclave plan was to infiltrate and take over from within, I could see them playing nice with anyone in order to gain control. For an example in history, Hitler signed a Non-Aggression pact with the Soviet Union, even though he always planned on invading them.

 

[TorontoReign]

One thing. Technically, the MWBoS would have no clue who The Enclave are. They went east before FO2.

So, if say the Chicago Enclave was independant of FO2 Enclave, with no FEV plan for example, the MWBoS and Enclave could form some kind of alliance.

Just a thought.

I couldn't see the Enclave doing that. They don't play well with others.

Well you need to think outside the box. The Enclave from FO2 is one representation of what I consider a pre-war militant shadow government, with members from the political, corporate, and private sector.

So, if there is say, another Enclave bunker, or bunkers, they would be cut off and independent from the Rig. In fact, their "goals" could actually better represent what Enclave plans in 2077 were like.

If the Enclave's plan was to infiltrate and take over from within, I could see them playing nice with anyone in order to gain control. For an example in history, Hitler signed a Non-Aggression pact with the Soviet Union, even though he always planned on invading them.

It isn't because of a lack of imagination on my part. Do you really think a group like the Enclave would work alongside any group of the BOS?

Right off the bat, the BOS would not trust a group with that much power. More likely they would try to kill each other over technology or ideological differences. The Enclave has a "If your not Enclave go fuck yourself" kind of attitude. They don't work with tribals, ghouls, or mutants. The Midwest BOS accepts non-humans into it's ranks. How would that work out?

The Midwest BOS would have no reason to side with the Enclave to begin with. What would their purpose be? If they recruit out of the Wasteland then they have plenty of manpower. Assuming that Tactics is semi-canon, and some of the main events did occur, it can be assumed that the BOS now has a large cache of technology, and they would not want to share that.

 

[EvilBastrd]

I already said why. The Enclave "fuck you" attitude is FO2 and FO3, who are supposedly survivors from FO2. The impure human ideology is also FO2, not 2077 Enclave.

But to answer again why, you make nice to control or destroy a group from within.

The MWBoS is obviously very open-minded, compared to WCBoS. BoS origins are also pre-war military. They meet another group with similar origins, and who knows? Outcome really depends on leadership and diplomacy.

To add: reasons why MWBoS would consider an alliance: share tech. Other factions in the area could be, or are, a common enemy. Similar pre-war ties. That just a few I can think of off the top of my head.

 

[TorontoReign]

I already said why. The Enclave "fuck you" attitude is FO2 and FO3, who are supposedly survivors from FO2. The impure human ideology is also FO2, not 2077 Enclave.

But to answer again why, you make nice to control or destroy a group from within.

The MWBoS is obviously very open-minded, compared to WCBoS. BoS origins are also pre-war military. They meet another group with similar origins, and who knows? Outcome really depends on leadership and diplomacy.

So you are saying that this group of Enclave would not be the Enclave then. They don't adhere to any of their previous beliefs, and are connected only by name. Why not call them something else then? How did this group get the nifty name, but not keep anything else? The Enclave is made up of elitist pricks from before the Great War. That shit is bred into them. They think they are better than everyone else. Why would this group suddenly be different? Because they are in Chicago?

The Midwest Brotherhood has had contact with the original Brotherhood , so they most likely know about the Enclave. If they know anything about the Enclave, then they know not to trust them. Even if they don't know about them, it is a bit of a long shot to say the two groups would join forces. The alliance is not needed. Are they suppose to ally just because they both have pre-war roots?

I think many fans would hate it. It sounds like Awesome Power Armor Buddies or something.

 

[EvilBastrd]

You said it yourself. The Enclave is a pre-war "group". The Rig is isolated. They formed their own ideology that had nothing to do with Enclave 2077.

There were no mutants, ghouls, or impure humans in 2077. The fucked up beliefs the Enclave on the rig have is in part based upon their environment.

Another group who was located in the midwest or east coast, with the same shadow gov't Enclave ties, would more than likely have developed their own ideology. As long as their origins were pre-war Enclave, then yes, I would say they are Enclave. However, their ideology, tech and goals would be different. However, controlling the government of the USA would prolly be the end goal, the means to achieving it could, and probably would be, completely different.

We don't know the contact between the MWBoS and WCBoS, but it would prolly not be that good, if anything. Generally before people just start killing one another, some form of communication is attempted, even the Great Khans are open to diplomacy. Would there be alternative motives and tension? Prolly so. But that is where the player can be thrown into the equation.

Btw I liked your idea on the Det/Chicago/Windsor/Great Lakes location.

 

[TorontoReign]

You said it yourself. The Enclave is a pre-war "group". The Rig is isolated. They formed their own ideology that had nothing to do with Enclave 2077.

There were no mutants, ghouls, or impure humans in 2077. The fucked up beliefs the Enclave on the rig have is in part based upon their environment.

Another group who was located in the midwest or east coast, with the same shadow gov't Enclave ties, would more than likely have developed their own ideology. As long as their origins were pre-war Enclave, then yes, I would say they are Enclave. However, their ideology, tech and goals would be different. However, controlling the government of the USA would prolly be the end goal, the means to achieving it could, and probably would be, completely different.

We don't know the contact between the MWBoS and WCBoS, but it would prolly not be that good, if anything. Generally before people just start killing one another, some form of communication is attempted, even the Great Khans are open to diplomacy. Would there be alternative motives and tension? Prolly so. But that is where the player can be thrown into the equation.

Btw I liked your idea on the Det/Chicago/Windsor/Great Lakes location.

I suppose it is possible, but I don't know man. Something just doesn't mesh well there IMO. It's just my opinion though. Everyone has one I guess.

Thanks though. I have been working on the idea with a few other people. I have kinda hit writers block though, so I have slacked off a bit.

 

[EvilBastrd]

You said it yourself. The Enclave is a pre-war "group". The Rig is isolated. They formed their own ideology that had nothing to do with Enclave 2077.

There were no mutants, ghouls, or impure humans in 2077. The fucked up beliefs the Enclave on the rig have is in part based upon their environment.

Another group who was located in the midwest or east coast, with the same shadow gov't Enclave ties, would more than likely have developed their own ideology. As long as their origins were pre-war Enclave, then yes, I would say they are Enclave. However, their ideology, tech and goals would be different. However, controlling the government of the USA would prolly be the end goal, the means to achieving it could, and probably would be, completely different.

We don't know the contact between the MWBoS and WCBoS, but it would prolly not be that good, if anything. Generally before people just start killing one another, some form of communication is attempted, even the Great Khans are open to diplomacy. Would there be alternative motives and tension? Prolly so. But that is where the player can be thrown into the equation.

Btw I liked your idea on the Det/Chicago/Windsor/Great Lakes location.

I suppose it is possible, but I don't know man. Something just doesn't mesh well there IMO. It's just my opinion though. Everyone has one I guess.

Thanks though. I have been working on the idea with a few other people. I have kinda hit writers block though, so I have slacked off a bit.

Yeah it just an idea. It can actually go one of many ways, and the MWBoS and Enclave could be facing an enemy or enemies that make war with each other suicide.

Regardless, most alliances are not perfect, especially in the FO Universe.

My only desire is a Enclave that is totally different from FO2/3.

I wrote up an idea of a Poseidon/Enclave vault in Michigan City, who was working on a cryogenics program.

Great Lakes would make for a great setting though.

 

[TorontoReign]

You said it yourself. The Enclave is a pre-war "group". The Rig is isolated. They formed their own ideology that had nothing to do with Enclave 2077.

There were no mutants, ghouls, or impure humans in 2077. The fucked up beliefs the Enclave on the rig have is in part based upon their environment.

Another group who was located in the midwest or east coast, with the same shadow gov't Enclave ties, would more than likely have developed their own ideology. As long as their origins were pre-war Enclave, then yes, I would say they are Enclave. However, their ideology, tech and goals would be different. However, controlling the government of the USA would prolly be the end goal, the means to achieving it could, and probably would be, completely different.

We don't know the contact between the MWBoS and WCBoS, but it would prolly not be that good, if anything. Generally before people just start killing one another, some form of communication is attempted, even the Great Khans are open to diplomacy. Would there be alternative motives and tension? Prolly so. But that is where the player can be thrown into the equation.

Btw I liked your idea on the Det/Chicago/Windsor/Great Lakes location.

I suppose it is possible, but I don't know man. Something just doesn't mesh well there IMO. It's just my opinion though. Everyone has one I guess.

Thanks though. I have been working on the idea with a few other people. I have kinda hit writers block though, so I have slacked off a bit.

Yeah it just an idea. It can actually go one of many ways, and the MWBoS and Enclave could be facing an enemy or enemies that make war with each other suicide.

Regardless, most alliances are not perfect, especially in the FO Universe.

My only desire is a Enclave that is totally different from FO2/3.

I wrote up an idea of a Poseidon/Enclave vault in Michigan City, who was working on a cryogenics program.

Great Lakes would make for a great setting though.

I would rather see Poseidon as a separate group, but them being similar to the Enclave. They would have a different name, but the same origin. That way you could have the Enclave in the game, but they wouldn't just be the same old Enclave. They would have a very different feel of course, they couldn't have the same Power Armor as the other groups, they would obviously not have vertibirds, but maybe have access to tanks or something like that. Am i supposed to believe that no tanks have survived?

 

[DevilTakeMe]

There's a lot of "what ifs" that can get involved with the Midwest Brotherhood and Enclave.

Number one, we don't know if the Enclave was even in Chicago prior to the Enclave's flight from Navarro, or if the Chicago group is part of that exodus.

We actually do not know when the Brotherhood first learns of the Enclave, as the Brotherhood had gone into hiding in their bunkers prior to Fallout 2. We do know that it's the Chosen One who really gets intel for the BoS, but there's no real telling how long the Enclave had been known to the BoS.

Another question is whether the Chicago Enclave group actually has contact with the West Coast or the East coast, or if the Enclave have had any intel on the Brotherhood of Steel prior to Fallout 2.

With Poseidonet and satellite uplinks a fairly common tech among the Enclave, it's hard to believe that Chicago wouldn't have had at least some intermittent contact prior to the end of Fallout 2, if they were even there. Heck, Eden is supposed to contact Autumn Senior while Autumn is still on the West Coast.

And that's all before we even consider the idea that the Chicago Enclave would even talk to a bunch of "traitorous mutineers" from the Brotherhood... or if they would welcome them as potential recruits/allies.

 

[TorontoReign]

There's a lot of "what ifs" that can get involved with the Midwest Brotherhood and Enclave.

Number one, we don't know if the Enclave was even in Chicago prior to the Enclave's flight from Navarro, or if the Chicago group is part of that exodus.

We actually do not know when the Brotherhood first learns of the Enclave, as the Brotherhood had gone into hiding in their bunkers prior to Fallout 2. We do know that it's the Chosen One who really gets intel for the BoS, but there's no real telling how long the Enclave had been known to the BoS.

Another question is whether the Chicago Enclave group actually has contact with the West Coast or the East coast, or if the Enclave have had any intel on the Brotherhood of Steel prior to Fallout 2.

With Poseidonet and satellite uplinks a fairly common tech among the Enclave, it's hard to believe that Chicago wouldn't have had at least some intermittent contact prior to the end of Fallout 2, if they were even there. Heck, Eden is supposed to contact Autumn Senior while Autumn is still on the West Coast.

And that's all before we even consider the idea that the Chicago Enclave would even talk to a bunch of "traitorous mutineers" from the Brotherhood... or if they would welcome them as potential recruits/allies.

This.

There are definitely a lot of things to consider. I doubt that any group of Enclave would be without Poseidonet either. Any decent size group anyway. When it comes to Tactics related stuff it is all a big mystery too. What will they keep from that game? Will the Reavers be around? What happened to the Midwest BoS? What presence does the Enclave have in Chicago ?

 

[Oppen]

Also, we must not forget that the vaults experiment, designed by the later called Enclave, was set long before Fallout 1, which means they're probably the same kind of SOB no matter which side of the country you choose.

 

[EvilBastrd]

Poseidonet is limited, and does not work well. Long ago Avellone said Enclave communications were in bad shape, and that the Rig only had contact with Vault 8? to give the all clear, which becomes Vault City, and Vault 13.

For the most part, you are looking at short range for any kind of viable communication, and ham radios.

It is also not clear if Eden or Richardson gave the order for the Enclave to go east. The FO3 gamw guide states "on orders from the President, Autumn Sr. sent to the only Enclave base with a functioning ZAX supercomputer".

But, which Prez? Was this a contigency plan for Richardson, or Eden? IMO, continental communications would be impossible following a Nuclear War, so it makes sense the order was a contingency, " in case of disaster" plan of Richardsons.

Regardless, doesn't matter much except for logic.

Next, yep we have no idea about Chicago. Pre-existed, or drop offs from Autumn. But, if Autumn stationed units there, why Chicago? Was there a base already there? It really doesn't fit in logistically, so what purpose? Who knows.

Another reason I do not think communications were good. The DC Enclave seem oblivious to the fate of Navarro. Eden seems retarded that he doesn't know if the original FEV was a success "I have to assume it was a failure, as I never heard of its success". In fact, it makes more sense to me if Autumn was sent east before the rig even blew up.

Basically, there are a lot of unknowns when dealing with Enclave. Huge gaps in timeline, with really very little info, so the rest is left up to speculation.

Now, a good writer could answer this shit, and develop a good story behind it.

 

[TorontoReign]

Poseidonet is limited, and does not work well. Long ago Avellone said Enclave communications were in bad shape, and that the Rig only had contact with Vault 8? to give the all clear, which becomes Vault City, and Vault 13.

For the most part, you are looking at short range for any kind of viable communication, and ham radios.

It is also not clear if Eden or Richardson gave the order for the Enclave to go east. The FO3 gamw guide states "on orders from the President, Autumn Sr. sent to the only Enclave base with a functioning ZAX supercomputer".

But, which Prez? Was this a contigency plan for Richardson, or Eden? IMO, continental communications would be impossible following a Nuclear War, so it makes sense the order was a contingency, " in case of disaster" plan of Richardsons.

Regardless, doesn't matter much except for logic.

Next, yep we have no idea about Chicago. Pre-existed, or drop offs from Autumn. But, if Autumn stationed units there, why Chicago? Was there a base already there? It really doesn't fit in logistically, so what purpose? Who knows.

Another reason I do not think communications were good. The DC Enclave seem oblivious to the fate of Navarro. Eden seems retarded that he doesn't know if the original FEV was a success "I have to assume it was a failure, as I never heard of its success". In fact, it makes more sense to me if Autumn was sent east before the rig even blew up.

Basically, there are a lot of unknowns when dealing with Enclave. Huge gaps in timeline, with really very little info, so the rest is left up to speculation.

Now, a good writer could answer this shit, and develop a good story behind it.

Just a quick response to that. The Capitol Wasteland Enclave was aware of what happened back West.

 

[EvilBastrd]

Also, we must not forget that the vaults experiment, designed by the later called Enclave, was set long before Fallout 1, which means they're probably the same kind of SOB no matter which side of the country you choose.

Well, technically that depends on your view of what the Enclave was. If they were the US government, or a shadow gov't. How a shadow gov't could pull off the vault experiments without the actual gov't knowing, would mean the Enclave even more powerful than I think they are. Obviously, they knew about it, but were they the masterminds behind it?

With the political landscape of 2077, and the USA being a collection of commonwealths, that is insane power to be the mastermind behind the vault experiments and get away with it. You aren't talking shadow gov't now, you talking the actual govt.

Regardless, hopefully answers can be found in Chicago.

 

[EvilBastrd]

Poseidonet is limited, and does not work well. Long ago Avellone said Enclave communications were in bad shape, and that the Rig only had contact with Vault 8? to give the all clear, which becomes Vault City, and Vault 13.

For the most part, you are looking at short range for any kind of viable communication, and ham radios.

It is also not clear if Eden or Richardson gave the order for the Enclave to go east. The FO3 gamw guide states "on orders from the President, Autumn Sr. sent to the only Enclave base with a functioning ZAX supercomputer".

But, which Prez? Was this a contigency plan for Richardson, or Eden? IMO, continental communications would be impossible following a Nuclear War, so it makes sense the order was a contingency, " in case of disaster" plan of Richardsons.

Regardless, doesn't matter much except for logic.

Next, yep we have no idea about Chicago. Pre-existed, or drop offs from Autumn. But, if Autumn stationed units there, why Chicago? Was there a base already there? It really doesn't fit in logistically, so what purpose? Who knows.

Another reason I do not think communications were good. The DC Enclave seem oblivious to the fate of Navarro. Eden seems retarded that he doesn't know if the original FEV was a success "I have to assume it was a failure, as I never heard of its success". In fact, it makes more sense to me if Autumn was sent east before the rig even blew up.

Basically, there are a lot of unknowns when dealing with Enclave. Huge gaps in timeline, with really very little info, so the rest is left up to speculation.

Now, a good writer could answer this shit, and develop a good story behind it.

Just a quick response to that. The Capitol Wasteland Enclave was aware of what happened back West.

How do you know that? Whitley is oblivious to this, hence him sending Ed-E to Navarro, presumably long after Navarro had fallen.

I think I do remember Autumn saying something about rig blowing up, but that may have actually been Lyons. Been awhile so I can't remember, but they act like they have no clue about Navarro faling to NCR, or if FEV worked, and if Eden can communicate to the WC, they should know this.

 

[DevilTakeMe]

Poseidonet works fine, the problem is that the Enclave doesn't have access to all of it or know how big the network actually is. Poseidon was apparently a conglomerate of different companies with what was basically an instant messenger between them, rather than a centralized, unified company. It's quite likely that not everyone in that company was in on the global conspiracy, so there might be holes in the communication network where the Enclave cannot access.

For instance, the first time it's used in the series, the Enclave soldier on the other end doesn't know where the transmission is coming from until he focuses on the signal. With Eden's apparent ability to control such communication, he could possibly be able to manipulate the Enclave in this manner.

The theory regarding Navarro and the Oil Rig is that the top brass in the Enclave covered up the destruction of both, just as they had with the deaths caused by power armor failures prior to Fallout 2 or that the Enclave managed to somehow conceal Eden's identity as a ZAX computer from the rest of the troops. This would explain away why Whitley would send ED-E to Navarro, and why he would instruct the Chicago Enclave to scoot ED-E along on his way to Navarro as well.

Government coverups seem to be the modus operandi for the Enclave... so there's quite a bit that could be "explained away" in this manner.

Raven Rock's intended purpose was in fact to serve as the communications nerve center for the US military in times of crisis. It's called the Second Pentagon for this reason, and then add to that a ZAX computer who believes its the President (and uses Eyebots to spread his message).

In this use, Bethesda may be overriding Avellone on the whole 'national communication being poor' thing for the Enclave. As Raven Rock and the Adams AFB Crawler or the Satellite Relay Station note, the Enclave is plugged into a satellite system with communication capabilities.

 

[EvilBastrd]

Indeed. I know what you speak of. But almost all of it is theory, not fact.

However, yes I know that the Enclave can hit some sats. But generally speaking sats allow for direct comm with a particular Sat.

The question is, what sats survived the nuclear war? Communications is a primary strategic target.

Second, the ground/physical damage to sat comm arrays caused by the nukes, people, and time.

Third in order for long range comm to work, I have to have everything functioning, send a message to a sat, and in point B someone else has to have everything working, and in link with the same sat I am sending my message to.

I do believe that regionally, the Enclave are able to restore a fairly decent for a post-nuclear war communications, but long range, 3000 miles, I highly doubt.

So, for example, I assume that in Broken Steel the link to the missile platforn the Enclave have is a recent thing they just found. Otherwise, use it earlier, and game over.

I fully understand Edens purpose, I just doubt very good functionality in the aftermath of judgement day. The fact that Eden, this ZAX computer, who in some theories can comm with the west coast seems oblivious to what is going on, is a contradiction to this theory, IMO.

I like the KISS principle when dealing with things, until the game shows me different.

But, it is interesting to speculate on. Hopefully in FO4, and if set in Chicago or the midwest area, a lot of these answers can go from apeculation, to fact.

 

[DevilTakeMe]

It begs further questions, of course. Was the pre-war United States so focused on burying underground power lines, yet not have any failsafe system for communications like simple telephone wires?

There's power still running in the Capital Wasteland, but no other utilities such as running water or telephone lines or other data management, which would be key for Raven Rock's intended purpose.

Why not across the country for government use only?

 

[Ben]

For a non-citizen, you take up a lot of my time.