Fallout community; not doing enough?

[requiem_for_a_starfury]

The only difference was that one was overhyped and one was almost destroyed by anti-hype before the release.

Also FOBOS wasn't FO3 and even before they cancelled VB and disbanded BIS the fan base wouldn't of pissed on an Interplay exec if they were on fire. FOBOS graphics were mediocre and modern gamers are graphics whores. On the other hand despite the way they've been treating their IP Bethesda had a huge Moronwind fanbase looking forward to Oblivion, console gamers were blinded by the shiny and it was one of the first big releases for the new console.

There was also a huge potential market for "Dark Alliance with guns".

Except it was a tired game on a console soon to be replaced. Where as the 360 doesn't have that many games made for it yet. Face it they are really going to have to screw up and make a real lame shooter for this to fail.

At the moment any publicity is good for them, it generates interest. Once the game comes out then bad publicity can kill it, if it's bad enough that the console gamers won't touch it.

 

[RPG of the year!!]

Except it was a tired game on a console soon to be replaced.

...Yes?

Halo 2 was likewise a tired game on a console soon to be replaced, but as a dear old friend would say, it sold LIKE HOTCAKES(!!!).

Despite the way events unfolded in practice, there was indeed a huge potential demand for FO:BoS/Dark Alliance, which is why Herveums shitcanned Interplay's PC development to begin with.

Face it they are really going to have to screw up and make a real lame shooter for this to fail.

Much like they fucked up Oblivion and made it such a lame "RPG" that a portion of its actual fans refuse to even address it as such. I don't understand how Oblivion possibly fails less at what it does than FO:BoS failed at what it tried to do.

The only difference I can see is that Bethesda had the foresight to <s>revive the frozen corpse of Joseph Goebbels</s> hire Pete Hines.

 

[requiem_for_a_starfury]

Halo 2 was an anticipated sequel to a successful console game. How many console players knew what Fallout was back then?

Bethesda have the fanbase, Interplay could only dream about. If people will buy horse armour they'll buy Oblivion with guns.

Most people who bought Oblivion wouldn't know an RPG if it bit them. On the other hand most people know what a shooter is, it's a lot easier to get away with a lame game if there's no real yardstick to judge by.

 

[RPG of the year!!]

Halo 2 was an anticipated sequel to a successful console game.

Survey says... Dark Alliance II!

How many console players knew what Fallout was back then?

About the same number that know what Fallout is today. That's hint #1.

Bethesda have the fanbase, Interplay could only dream about. If people will buy horse armour they'll buy Oblivion with guns.

At the time FO:BoS was being squeezed out of Chucky's cornpipe, the first Dark Alliance title had sold 1.4 million copies(data etched into eyelids courtesy of Shadow Paladin). That's over 1/3rd the total units of Oblivion that have been pushed to date across both PC and Xbox360 platforms. It wasn't a fanbase to scoff at by any means, at least in terms of size. All signs pointed to the potential of FO:BoS being a hit.

The TES forums were a whirlwind of comedy when the horse armour was released. I smile, yet digress. Here's the point; a $2.99 impulse purchase spent on a 6MB plugin for a game the user already has installed on their HDD is, brace yourself, slightly different than the decision to buy an entire $50, multi-gigabyte specimen of clusterfuck. Add to that the number of people who felt spectacularly swindled after downloading the horse armour, plus Bethesda's penchant for alienating its previous fanbase without fail since Morrowind, and the equation ends up just a nanometer more complicated than "they bought horse armour, they'll buy Fallout 3". <s>Love</s> Hate to inform you.

Most people who bought Oblivion wouldn't know an RPG if it bit them. On the other hand most people know what a shooter is, it's a lot easier to get away with a lame game if there's no real yardstick to judge by.

Most people who bought Oblivion did so because the mainstream gaming media aided Pete Hines in hoisting it atop a gargantuan pillar of lies.

Fallout 3 will be measured against Halo and Gears of War. Given Bethesda's dazzling ineptitude at game design, it will come up short even to them.

I used to argue with marketting plants that a Fallout console action shooter would fail despite an enormous potential for success. Now I find myself arguing the exact same case against an actual Fallout fan. This chills my fucking bones.

 

[SuAside]

Not at all. As to what I hope to achieve, well, there could be plenty different outcomes. Personally, I'm tired of all the bullshit in the gaming industry, I'm tired of unplayable games (I don't mean bugs) and the always-eager-to-suck-someone's-dick media. I think it's worth taking a stand, and FO3 is a good cause. There is a good chance that nothing will happen, but then there is a chance that something will happen, so why not try it?

but try what exactly? invade TES forums & get banned (over & over again)? use the community websites to continuously spam hate on Beth?

unless you missed it, about every thread about Beth & FO3 turns out into a Thread of Broken Dreams, with plenty of arguments against what Beth is suspected to be doing.

the FO community is already viewed as extremist. our credibility is already pretty low within the industry and with the console crowd (who view us as oldies who fear evolution).

you keep saying we should be doing something... but you fail to present an actual plan of action...

To try to beat Bethesda in their own game - hype. We don't attack Bethesda at all, we create awareness, expectations, and anti-hype. It's not easy to succeed in this game, but it's easier than you think.

but even you with your 'contacts' within the industry fail to present an actual plan of action. what am i (or the community as a whole) supposed to do?

atm you're like a firefighter standing in the middle of the street, watching a burning house while screaming "do something!".
"do something" usually means calling a firefighter, but there is already one in the middle of the road doing nothing but screaming hysterically and not acting either...

once again: how about proposing something concrete instead of acting all hysterical?

 

[requiem_for_a_starfury]

This isn't about Dark Alliance's potential, Bethesda aren't chucky and herve. You're talking about a smear campaign to make them do a u-turn and produce an isometric TB game for the PC or to make them stop work entirely then you're seriously misguided.

I don't doubt FO3 has the potential to fail, but on the other hand given the current market it's initial sales could be enough for them to claim a success. To start a campaign against their version of FO3 before any details have been officially released just makes the community look foolish and confirms peoples attitude that we're rabid fanbois.

FO3 has 3 things going for it;

Hype - nostalgia for FO2 from the game press, and rabid rantings from us before details are known will get people talking and anticipating the game.

Fanbase - there were plenty of people who bought Oblivion and liked it, not regular rpg players but the average gamer.

Guns - shooters are more accessable than fantasy games so it'll appeal to a wider crowd.

What FO3 has against it,

Experience - first/third person in a non-fantasy setting, good design implementation. There's not many of them in their recent portfolio.

Competition - Oblivion was a hugely hyped game on a new console, people probably bought it just to have something to play on their 360. But by the time FO3 comes out there will be a lot more 360 games available plus competition from the Wii and PS3. As well as having to compete with a saturated FPS market, and as I said most people who bought Oblivion didn't know what an RPG was but probably do know what a shooter is.

At this stage it's not a matter of potential (either way) but time and money invested. It's too late for them to change direction, and too early to make them cut their losses.

 

[Wooz]

I'd be up for some artwork, as soon as I finish doing some projects I'm working on.

Please elaborate what kind of pics you'll be needing, take a look at my site, I'd be able to make bogus concept art or somesuch.

 

[RPG of the year!!]

You're talking about a smear campaign to make them do a u-turn and produce an isometric TB game for the PC or to make them stop work entirely then you're seriously misguided.

You misunderstand. Bethesda's primary marketting tool is hype. To be specific, hype that is remarkably unburdened by reality. To say Oblivion wouldn't have sold quite as well without it would be a hilarious comedy of understatements.

I'm talking about campaigning to defuse as much hype as is possible, for no other reason than to cripple the sales of Fallout 3: I Can't Believe It's Not Chuck!. The worst Bethesda can(and will) do to the community is release another FO:BoS, but the worst the community can do to them is inflict direct monetary harm by sabotaging their most valuable salestool(Last name, Hines).

To start a campaign against their version of FO3 before any details have been officially released just makes the community look foolish and confirms peoples attitude that we're rabid fanbois.

Petey Boy has long since spelled out the Oblivion With Guns status of FO3. VDweller and Roshambo's infoleaks are just icing on the shitcake. If the glittering illiterati think that the community is being "rabid" and "foolish"(oh noes!!!) for knowing the details well in advance of Bethesda officially releasing them, that will indeed be an eventual problem for certain somebodies(Hint hint: not the community).

It's too late for them to change direction, and too early to make them cut their losses.

True. It is, however, never too early to cut their profits.

 

[requiem_for_a_starfury]

You misunderstand. Bethesda's primary marketting tool is hype.

The same for just about every company, and product.

I'm talking about campaigning to defuse as much hype as is possible, for no other reason than to cripple the sales of Fallout 3:

I was speaking more to VDweller's earlier posts but unless you've got their marketing budget and a few of the game media in your pocket you're not going to make much of a dent.

Given that a console game developer bought the rights it didn't need any leaks to guess what the game would be like but until they release details and start their advertising full blast they can counter any anti-hype just by pointing out the fact no details have been released and the community is just crying wolf. And you know what happend to the boy that did that.

 

[Per]

And you know what happend to the boy that did that.

He waited until everyone got surprised and eaten by wolves then stole their watches?

 

[RPG of the year!!]

The same for just about every company, and product.

Oh, not to the extent Bethesda relies on it. Not even close.

The hype was so immense that only after about a week of Oblivion post-release did details on the game itself begin to trickle out.

There was a reason things like level-scaling came as a surprise, namely because Bethesda is very careful to direct eyes towards the hype, yet far, far away from the actual subject of the hype, keeping people 95% in the dark about the end product.

unless you've got their marketing budget and a few of the game media in your pocket you're not going to make much of a dent.

Funny. The community didn't need a marketting budget or the gaming media in its pocket to put a dent in the sales of FO:BoS(On sale now, just $12 at Overstock.com!!). Remember, though it wasn't quite Oblivion-level, it did have a sizeable marketting campaign and ended up with more high review scores than low. To explain the roughly 19,000 copies it managed to sell, damage inflicted by the comminuty must to be factored in for it to make sense.

but until they release details and start their advertising full blast they can counter any anti-hype just by pointing out the fact no details have been released and the community is just crying wolf.

And you don't think it'll be of any harm to Bethesda if they swear that the community doesn't know any details on FO3, then turn around and proudly announce the very same details the community has been shouting(and Bethesda has been denouncing)? Mmm.

EDIT - Oh, and let's just see them try to dismiss Pete Hines' storied quotes("It won't be a leap of faith to say we'll make it similar to Morrowind", "Doing what we do best, and we don't do isometric BG style", "We'll give it the same care we gave the TES franchise with Oblivion LOL OKY", etc) by saying that no details have been released.

 

[Brother None]

And you don't think it'll be of any harm to Bethesda if they swear that the community doesn't know any details on FO3, then turn around and proudly announce the very same details the community has been shouting(and Bethesda has been denouncing)? Mmm.

EDIT - Oh, and let's just see them try to dismiss Pete Hines' storied quotes("It won't be a leap of faith to say we'll make it similar to Morrowind", "Doing what we do best, and we don't do isometric BG style", "We'll give it the same care we gave the TES franchise with Oblivion LOL OKY", etc) by saying that no details have been released.

Well, T-Bolt is right in as far as it is about popular perception; the popular perception being that "nothing is known yet". It'll be hard to convince people outside of the core that this is not the case, even though it clearly isn't.

However, your point nullifies that. Basing arguments on things we know to be true might put a dent in our credibility on the short-term, but will put a long-term dent in Bethesda's credibility. However, Bethesda doesn't *deny* anything. Sneaky Pete's too "smart" for that.

 

[maximaz]

Sorry to jump into the discussion just now but I have to point out to you, VDweller, that a lot of people are waiting for F3 not because it is Fallout but because it's a big game developed by Bethesda.

If you go to say Gamespot and look up the recent news article that talks about F3 possibly going to Xbox 360, you will see the majority of comments like "Cool! Bethesda rules!" There were quite a few people saying that they haven't even heard of Fallout but think it's cool because it's by Bethesda and many others who are really excited about "another c00l game from Beth that better cum to 360."
Now, what all this means is that this situation is different from FOBOS. People will buy F3 because of Bethesda and Oblivion. Oblivion had the marketing and the graphics that won over millions of people and that is exactly what they all expect from F3 and that is exactly what they'll get. FOBOS, on the other hand, had neither so the only people who would buy it would be either the Fallout fans or people who heard it was great. Obviously that didn't happen. So, if Fallout community does not buy a single copy of F3, the game will probably still sell millions, therefore, Bethesda could give a flying fuck about what we have to say. As far as Beth fans, they really don't want to listen and dont give a fuck.

Now I have to join SuAside and ask, what do you propose? You keep saying things like "you won't know unless you try it," but you never say what "it" is. What exactly do you have in mind? The problem is not that we're not willing, it's that we don't know what to do that might work, if you do please do tell. Not many of us know any F3 developers so HOW can we "influence the company indirectly?" Tell us what and how because i don't see any way that would work.

You have good points: yes, Fallout community should do something, and yes, it's a fact the game will be real time and not isometric, and yes, the it may be a good PA game inspired by Fallout and all that shit but what exactly do you propose? Be specific, otherwise it's hard to tell what you're pissed about.

 

[requiem_for_a_starfury]

Funny. The community didn't need a marketting budget or the gaming media in its pocket to put a dent in the sales of FO:BoS(On sale now, just $12 at Overstock.com!!). Remember, though it wasn't quite Oblivion-level, it did have a sizeable marketting campaign and ended up with more high review scores than low. To explain the roughly 19,000 copies it managed to sell, damage inflicted by the comminuty must to be factored in for it to make sense.

The reviews weren't that good, the only games that really get bad reviews tend to be from small independant companies you've never heard of before. Or they have to be very bad indeed. It just didn't appeal to a wide audience, all the community did was put off Fallout fans and perhaps Dark Alliance fans who might of bought it. The situation isn't the same for Oblivion with guns at all, as maximaz says there's a lot of general interest.

 

[Sander]

The reviews weren't that good, the only games that really get bad reviews tend to be from small independant companies you've never heard of before.

*cough* Gothic 3 *cough*

Or they have to be very bad indeed. It just didn't appeal to a wide audience, all the community did was put off Fallout fans and perhaps Dark Alliance fans who might of bought it. The situation isn't the same for Oblivion with guns at all, as maximaz says there's a lot of general interest.

It was also published at the most retarded time of the year they could think of.

 

[VDweller]

My apologies for not replying in a timely manner.

...despite the way they've been treating their IP Bethesda had a huge Moronwind fanbase looking forward to Oblivion, console gamers were blinded by the shiny and it was one of the first big releases for the new console.

These factors are no longer there.

Bethesda have the fanbase, Interplay could only dream about.

There was a time when Interplay had a huge fanbase, and Bethesda had only a score of hardcore DF fans. These things have a tendency to change.

Fallout 3 will be measured against Halo and Gears of War. Given Bethesda's dazzling ineptitude at game design, it will come up short even to them.

I used to argue with marketting plants that a Fallout console action shooter would fail despite an enormous potential for success. Now I find myself arguing the exact same case against an actual Fallout fan. This chills my fucking bones.

Couldn't agree more.

but try what exactly? invade TES forums & get banned (over & over again)? use the community websites to continuously spam hate on Beth?

Not at all. Try creating awareness and anti-spam campaigns. See fallout3.org project or this interview for example:
http://masseffect.bioware.com/forums/viewtopic.html?topic=546268&forum=104&sp=0

but even you with your 'contacts' within the industry fail to present an actual plan of action. what am i (or the community as a whole) supposed to do?

See above. Or the DAC forums.

how about proposing something concrete instead of acting all hysterical?

I'm not acting hysterical. I simple shared some thoughts on DAC and then Kharn posted them here. I explained the only possible course of action, which is why fallout3.org was launched. Whether or not the project is successful remains on many factors, the most important of which is the community support and involvement.

was speaking more to VDweller's earlier posts but unless you've got their marketing budget and a few of the game media in your pocket you're not going to make much of a dent.

Any marketing guy can tell you that "word of mouth" is the MOST effective way to advertise (and counter-advertise).

Sorry to jump into the discussion just now but I have to point out to you, VDweller, that a lot of people are waiting for F3 not because it is Fallout but because it's a big game developed by Bethesda.

So? Daikatana was one of the most highly anticipated game, yet it was butchered within weeks. Big games can flop as easily as small games.

Now I have to join SuAside and ask, what do you propose? You keep saying things like "you won't know unless you try it," but you never say what "it" is. What exactly do you have in mind? The problem is not that we're not willing, it's that we don't know what to do that might work, if you do please do tell. Not many of us know any F3 developers so HOW can we "influence the company indirectly?" Tell us what and how because i don't see any way that would work.

See above.

 

[Sander]

I'm getting a rather poor feeling from Fallout3.org, really. It seems to be becoming some sort of ubertroll, which is a shame.

 

[Brother None]

I'm getting a rather poor feeling from Fallout3.org, really. It seems to be becoming some sort of ubertroll, which is a shame.

Directionless, too. I'd love to support it more, but there's not much too support, including a clear outline of what the hell they want.

 

[requiem_for_a_starfury]

These factors are no longer there.

Which means it could fail, not that it will fail. Instead they now have the huge amount of Oblivion sales to bolster their reputation. And this time they'll be targeting not people who normally play rpgs or even know what one is but the average console gamer that includes the Halo, GOW and even Call of Duty fans.

I'm not saying it is going to be a success, but if you look at it from their point of view (which I've been trying to get you to do) the possible potential far outweighs a few hundred (all the active posters) or even a few thousand (all registered) disgruntled people from the original fanbase.

Any marketing guy can tell you that "word of mouth" is the MOST effective way to advertise (and counter-advertise).

Word of mouth can kill a game, once it's released (if it's no good). But before any details are (officially) known all you will do is drum up further interest in the game. That's it, you're working for Bethesda aren't you? You really a fanboi troll working on reverse psychology.

So? Daikatana was one of the most highly anticipated game, yet it was butchered within weeks. Big games can flop as easily as small games.

Daikatana was just too long in coming out. Big games usually only flop if they're a load of crap. Just because a few thousand people who post on various forums think Oblivion and other Bethesda games are crap doesn't mean that the rest of the gaming world does.

To put it another way, what will your campaign focus on? Changes in gameplay going from Fallout's PnP roots to Oblivion with guns? Real time instead of TB, FP instead of Iso? Lack of dialogue, choices with no consequences? The average console gamer isn't interested in all that, keep going on about how it's going to be and all you'll be doing is whetting their appertites. Their target audience hates TB, it's too slow, and isometric just don't cut it. Not when 'First Person is so more immersive man'. Or are you going to complain about how they're getting the setting all wrong? The average gamer isn't going to care about if deathclaws are hairy or not, if power armour looks like something out of Batman of the Future or Robots are anime. In fact they'll probably prefer them like that.

You can just hear a Bethesda design meeting now;

'We'll throw in a few WW2 weapons to keep the CoD kids happy, and we'll model our combat armour and power armour on Halo and GoW that'll bring in both groups of fans.'

'Yeah that'll be a winner, and if we cross dinosaurs with the xenomorphs from aliens for our deathclaws, as long as they're not hairy then the Fallout fans won't have a leg to stand on and it'll draw in the Turok and Alien fans.'

'And for Ghouls, they're zombies right? So we'll go with the fast zombies from modern films nothing slow and ponderous. We've got to keep the pace going.'

I'd like to see a FO3 done right but we're not going to kill it, it'll have to do that itself. There's a good chance of that since it'll be a tougher market to compete in, but it'll be the game's graphics, gameplay, controls and bugs (or lack thereof) on which it will be judged.

 

[34P434]

the problem is that there is a huge potential market for "Oblivion with guns", VD.

There was also a huge potential market for "Dark Alliance with guns".

True and True. Guns are very shiny. But is there a market for Fallout at all? Or for any 'good game'? What to tell the ignorant target group? That Fo3 is not true to its roots? or a bad role play-ing game? that it has (will have) no depth? Who will understand?

It seems that we are the old generation by now.
I say! Let's go and change the mentality of today's gamers! =]