zeller said:
Sniff... we try our best... and ask for so little in return... sob.
Fallout d20 Creators Announced
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Sniff... we try our best... and ask for so little in return... sob.
zeller
First time out of the vault
well...
change that nice gray background to something more creative, i think.
The question is:
Why does the world need fallout d20?
change that nice gray background to something more creative, i think.
The question is:
Why does the world need fallout d20?
zioburosky13
Vault Senior Citizen
zeller said:
Because we know Fallout 3 will suck.
One thing that makes Fallout unique is the classless system. You don't choose to be a hunter, scavenger, engineer, raider but you develope the skill you think is important to suite your gameplay.
Well, the publisher might lack creativity, but the designers probably don't and they were hired after the horrible website was made.
And one of the designers is Jason Mical, maker of the original Fallout PnP. It wasn't perfect, of course (half-mutants, anyone?) and had some contradictions to the setting (although it's understandable that, even though Fallout Bible wasn't perfect either, a lot of things weren't that clear about the Fallout setting before MCA released it). Jason was actually working on a revised version of that some time ago, although he didn't have time to finish it, and now he probably won't release it for obvious reasons.
And one of the designers is Jason Mical, maker of the original Fallout PnP. It wasn't perfect, of course (half-mutants, anyone?) and had some contradictions to the setting (although it's understandable that, even though Fallout Bible wasn't perfect either, a lot of things weren't that clear about the Fallout setting before MCA released it). Jason was actually working on a revised version of that some time ago, although he didn't have time to finish it, and now he probably won't release it for obvious reasons.
Jason Mical
First time out of the vault
Hey guys!
Sorry about the new account, I lost my old NMA account a long time ago.
Anyhoo, I thought I'd put my two cents worth into the discussion here since my name has come up a couple of times.
I used to be very against d20, but I have warmed up to it a little over the years. That being said, I tried like hell to interest companies in publishing my SPECIAL-based Fallout PnP game. Unfortunately, even though the game was damn near complete, no one was interested. No one wanted to pay the license fees, Interplay wasn't really interested in licensing it out, and so on. But the good news is that the game is still available out there, free of charge, just like I intended it to be (my old website shut down, but I could probably put it on my new one as an "official" mirror of sorts.) So if you just gotta have the SPECIAL, you can have it now, and you can have it for free.
The thing that exites me about the d20 project is that we have the opportunity to introduce a really awesome world we're all fans of to a much wider audience, and to finally get it some shelf time in traditional gaming stores. If that means that someone picks up an old copy of Fallout 2 and gives it a spin, likes it and becomes a Fallout fan - all the better. If it returns Fallout to the gamer consciousness, great. While us diehards might think about Fallout every day, there's a lot of people out there who played the games but forgot about them because there hasn't really been a good release in a long time (say, since Fallout 2).
Frankly, since, as far as I know, a single word on the project hasn't actually been written yet, it's still more than possible for fans and community members to voice concerns in much the way that Rosh has done. And since Rosh's concerns are perfectly valid, I ask what he and other members of the community who share his concerns would do to maintain the integrity of the world we know and love (and "do it with SPECIAL!" isn't really an option, but thanks for thinking it.)
So, any takers out there? If you had to say, "well, it's d20 Fallout or nothing," what would you want to see out of the d20 game that would make you think it was worthwhile?
Sorry about the new account, I lost my old NMA account a long time ago.
Anyhoo, I thought I'd put my two cents worth into the discussion here since my name has come up a couple of times.
I used to be very against d20, but I have warmed up to it a little over the years. That being said, I tried like hell to interest companies in publishing my SPECIAL-based Fallout PnP game. Unfortunately, even though the game was damn near complete, no one was interested. No one wanted to pay the license fees, Interplay wasn't really interested in licensing it out, and so on. But the good news is that the game is still available out there, free of charge, just like I intended it to be (my old website shut down, but I could probably put it on my new one as an "official" mirror of sorts.) So if you just gotta have the SPECIAL, you can have it now, and you can have it for free.The thing that exites me about the d20 project is that we have the opportunity to introduce a really awesome world we're all fans of to a much wider audience, and to finally get it some shelf time in traditional gaming stores. If that means that someone picks up an old copy of Fallout 2 and gives it a spin, likes it and becomes a Fallout fan - all the better. If it returns Fallout to the gamer consciousness, great. While us diehards might think about Fallout every day, there's a lot of people out there who played the games but forgot about them because there hasn't really been a good release in a long time (say, since Fallout 2).
Frankly, since, as far as I know, a single word on the project hasn't actually been written yet, it's still more than possible for fans and community members to voice concerns in much the way that Rosh has done. And since Rosh's concerns are perfectly valid, I ask what he and other members of the community who share his concerns would do to maintain the integrity of the world we know and love (and "do it with SPECIAL!" isn't really an option, but thanks for thinking it.)
So, any takers out there? If you had to say, "well, it's d20 Fallout or nothing," what would you want to see out of the d20 game that would make you think it was worthwhile?
It's not much help to say "I'd be on the team, but you'd have to pay me" either, is it?
Jason Mical said:
Hey, Ausir! I'm having a deja vu, where might I have heard something like that?
Pop
First time out of the vault
I'd play d20 fallout, and I'd consider the pursuit of such to be worthwhile, but it'd take a pretty good d20 config to beat SPECIAL. That doesn't mean d20 Fallout will be worthless, it just won't be the same. I'm very interested in what could be done. At the very least, it should allow for new ideas and content I can alter and graft onto the existing (very well-done, I might add) SPECIAL PnP to make it a better and more immersive RPG experience Bring it on, I say.
Bring it on, I say.
Jason Mical said:
An open character system that offers a bit of non-cliché story paths? Oh, wait, that is precisely what d20 defeats, which is exactly what gave Fallout's character system charm in playing.
It's like expecting Neo-Nazis to help out at the local Synagog as part of Community Service. Not only is the situation unsuitable, but it looks like it will only create more problems in the long run.
Just wait until some morons are chiming in that they hope Fallout 3 or Fallout 4 will use "the easier to understand system in Fallout d20", and there goes the character system, as we know Bethesda can't even treat their own IP with respect, and have become interested in pandering to the Lowest Common Denominator.
Hey, it's what you get for using a P&P system dumbed down for the average BioWare customer.
Jason Mical
First time out of the vault
Roshambo said:
Well the story part is soley up to the GM running the game (I've seen cliche Amber Diceless games and really incredible stories in d20), but which open character systems aside from SPECIAL would you cite? Shadowrun? Savage Worlds? Amber Diceless? Or even something more esoteric, like Dogs in the Vineyard or My Life With Master and the other stuff that's coming out of The Forge these days?
I'm not trying to be a smartass or pick a fight, I'm genuinely curious what systems you might use as a model (without, of course, hyping my own conversion...
).Jason Mical said:
Not when the character system has been cookie-cuttered for d20. Then you get into shit similar to the Cliché Four-Person Party, which d20 modern also generally tends towards, as does any class-based system; Huge Strong Warrior, Small Scrawny But Nimble Thief, Kindly Persuasive Cleric and Intelligent Mage.
Sorry, I don't see the reason to name-drop or concept-rape from anything else to supplany popularity or anything else for a P&P system that really is no cumbersome than any other. Burst against multiple opponents would be calculated in the same way that any spread attack or effect is done in any other system, and can have shortcuts made like in other games featuring the same kind of attack.
Shadowrun? Savage Worlds? Amber Diceless? Or even something more esoteric, like Dogs in the Vineyard or My Life With Master and the other stuff that's coming out of The Forge these days?
I'm not trying to be a smartass or pick a fight, I'm genuinely curious what systems you might use as a model (without, of course, hyping my own conversion...
Something that compliments the character design and gameplay of SPECIAL? Or how about SPECIAL? Or how about this, Fallout and SPECIAL stop getting raped over for "popularity"'s sake (when it seems these rapes never work out, ever), and someone actually bother to sit their ass down and do some work with the material to do it some credit, rather than try to coat it with licenses and trendy "gameplay" that does little but ignore the strongest point of the character system in favor of idiot children in adult bodies.
You did that once, what's so hard in understanding it now?
The main problem is in altering d20 to suit Fallout's style, because if you altered it too much, you'd be right where you are but require that the d20 simps will have to *gasp* learn for Fallout d20's system. Not good, when the system was dumbed down specifically for the drop-outs. So most likely it will be Fallout that again gets assfucked for the sake of whatever trendy crap it's subjected to, as usual. See the problem with using elements that do not compliment Fallout? It breaks down...
Well, Rosh, this could easily be avoided by removing classes from the rules. No classes means that the tendency to drift towards those would be a lot smaller, and it would also remove any confinements on characters, making them easier to fit into the world.Roshambo said:
Of course, that's assuming they'll be allowed to remove classes for their conversion.
He is right, though. A good dungeonmaster can make any system work interestingly and well.
Sander said:
Firstly, that's completely irrelevant if we're talking game design. Secondly, it's a bit like saying that any legal system is fine as long as you've got a great judge who can substitute his own decisions.
The book Robin's Laws of Good Game Mastering talks among other things about systems that empower the GM and systems that empower the players. D&D is notorious for belonging to the second category, and 3rd edition takes a great step further in that direction. Saying "let the GM take care of it" isn't a good enough approach to the issue.
Sander said:
Since d20 is generally a class-based system, it tends to defeat the purpose of using d20. Might as well just go with "okay...these Perks thingies...they're called Feats now. You get to pick two free from first level that could either hurt or help you, but each have a downside. Um, skills are also Feats, so make sure to take two levels of Small Guns if you want to use that Shotgun, three for the Sniper Rifle. Oh! And speaking of first level, that is when you get to pick which three Skill Feats are doubled each time you pick them until 10 levels of the Feat!"
Ew...it's starting to sound like a munchkin's wet dream already...
However, for simplicity's sake, most people will go by the core rules. How often did you get a campaign in D&D that didn't use classes? There was ONE MUCK I could think of, and only because of the common construction of such software, that was D&D based and didn't have levels of any sort. Instead, they took the creative story-driven approach and through role-playing earned abilities rewards; they felt it was more natural. I can't remember the name of it at the moment, unfortunately.
That is about the one exception to about...oh, thousands of MU* to use the D&D setting or a rip-off of D&D.
Here's a good question:
If Fallout d20 has classes, will there be a class-less supplement? If there is dual-system writing with both d20 and SPECIAL (easily done, with a conversions jacket and an appendix), then much of my issues with this will be alleviated entirely. In fact, according to most of the gripes of people I have played with in P&P, class-less systems are more favorable because it allows them to make a noteworthy character that didn't feel bound to D&D/MMOG-esque stereotypes, without having them considered a munchkin character by those who don't have the imagination to think outside of the book.
So, if I get people on the Fallout 3 forums asking for Bethesda to allow them to build their UBAR "Sneaker2/Diplomat1/Mercenary4 then dip into the NCR Deputy prestige class for the Gauss Training ability and then go ten full levels of Ranger Scout with +10d6 of Skirmish Damage and Sniper and Better Criticals perks and +2 power armour with the tesla and hardened enhancements!!! +25 BAB for murder death kill hit to the eyes every turn!!!!!" Character Build Template, I'm simply just going to ban the fucker on principle.
Roshambo said:
Actually, they have these already in the Unearthed Arcana supplement fod D&D. You get a benefit and a downside, and they're called... Traits.
Jason Mical
First time out of the vault
Roshambo said:
Well I wasn't asking for name-dropping or concept-raping, I was asking for a general comparison to use as an example. In the same way I might suggest a movie to someone and say "yeah, it's kind of like Day of the Dead..." or something.
You're right, I did do it once, and that conversion is still available (for free, I hope!) The problem is, I'm at a point in my life where I can't devote the time and resources to turning out 160,000 words for free anymore - the only people who can do that are either independently wealthy, or are college students with too much time on their hands (as I was when I did that game.) As I noted before, I tried to interest game companies in publishing it - I even offered it to a company free of charge so they wouldn't have to pay me for it, just to see it in print - and I was turned down and rebuffed at every step. For whatever reason, those companies - which included both d20 publishers and companies that would never touch d20 with a ten-foot pole - decided to pass on Fallout and the SPECIAL system.
It sounds to me - and pardon if my logical jump is incorrect, and feel free to let me know if it is - that your concern is largely that adapting Fallout to a system that uses classes will result in a) pigeonholing and restrictive storytelling, and b) a dumbing-down of the game universe. Restrictive storytelling is easily addressed - although parties can tend to the "dumb fighter, quick thief," etc. stereotypes, the GM can just as easily require that his players not play that way. Just because something can tend towards the simplistic does not mean it has to turn out that way.
As far as dumbing down the system goes, SPECIAL itself falls in the lower end of the complicated spectrum. Aside from bursts - which you admitted need a mechanical change - SPECIAL operates almost exactly like d20, except with a percentage die instead of a 20-sided die. So I have a hard time swallowing the simplicity of the game mechanics being a real issue, when the systems are actually pretty close to being the same. It's no Rolemaster, that's for damn sure.
Ehe, of course, imposing SPECIAL over d20 like that is pretty silly. But for it to be any good as a Fallout conversion, it really has to have no classes. SPECIAL was designed specifically for Fallout, but I do think d20 can be altered to sufficiently fit Fallout. It'd be pretty..nonsensical to alter SPECIAL to fit Fallout when there is already a system which fits perfectly.Roshambo said:
I'm having a deja vu. Something with Neverwinter Nights.However, for simplicity's sake, most people will go by the core rules. How often did you get a campaign in D&D that didn't use classes? There was ONE MUCK I could think of, and only because of the common construction of such software, that was D&D based and didn't have levels of any sort. Instead, they took the creative story-driven approach and through role-playing earned abilities rewards; they felt it was more natural. I can't remember the name of it at the moment, unfortunately.
That is about the one exception to about...oh, thousands of MU* to use the D&D setting or a rip-off of D&D.
Here's a good question:
If Fallout d20 has classes, will there be a class-less supplement? If there is dual-system writing with both d20 and SPECIAL (easily done, with a conversions jacket and an appendix), then much of my issues with this will be alleviated entirely. In fact, according to most of the gripes of people I have played with in P&P, class-less systems are more favorable because it allows them to make a noteworthy character that didn't feel bound to D&D/MMOG-esque stereotypes, without having them considered a munchkin character by those who don't have the imagination to think outside of the book.
So, if I get people on the Fallout 3 forums asking for Bethesda to allow them to build their UBAR "Sneaker2/Diplomat1/Mercenary4 then dip into the NCR Deputy prestige class for the Gauss Training ability and then go ten full levels of Ranger Scout with +10d6 of Skirmish Damage and Sniper and Better Criticals perks and +2 power armour with the tesla and hardened enhancements!!! +25 BAB for murder death kill hit to the eyes every turn!!!!!" Character Build Template, I'm simply just going to ban the fucker on principle.
Jason Mical: adding classes to Fallout will completely muck it up, you should be able to see that, really. Classes are what restricts not just original design, but also consecutive development of characters.
Of course not. But a good Game Master can fix much, so a poor system doesn't automatically mean a poor game. Although it does make it a lot more likely.Per said:
Jason Mical
First time out of the vault
Sander said:
Well, I'm not saying it will or won't muck it up, but I will offer this:
What drew me to Fallout in the first place, what made me pick the game up off the shelf and buy it, was the setting and the story. The first words I read on the back of the box were "remember Wasteland?" And I looked at the art, the setting, and the small plot details and I knew I would be buying the game.
The setting is what kept me playing, because frankly, the system itself and its implementation could be goddamned infuriating at times. I don't care if I was a classless character tweaked to my imagination or a munchkiny goony goon, when the first thing I have to do is fight a bunch of stupid rats, I nearly quit in frustration. But I stuck with it because of the promise of the good story and setting, and I'm glad I did.
When I describe the game to people who've never heard of it, I don't think I've ever even touched on the SPECIAL system itself. But the story and the setting? That's what interests them, and that's what makes Fallout what it is.
Like I said, I'm not arguing for or against a class/classless system, I'm just offering that it's a fairly small nit to pick if the setting and plots are intact.
Jason Mical said:
Then how about "SPECIAL"? Does that work for an example?
Because they aren't interested in the material, only what they can make from the material and the popularity of the d20 system, drawing an audience from both. At least this is how it works in theory. Usually, d20 conversions just turn into ass that plays like a flavored d20 campaign. This is also the same kind of mentality that Interplay used in "consoles + Fallout = console and Fallout fans buying!!!!$$$$!!!"
This is hardly treating the IP with respect.
Again, I had already addressed this, in that it requires more work to just get to the core principles and gameplay of Fallout. Just because it is possible, it doesn't mean that people will play that way, as most are wont to play what generally everyone else is used to playing. If it isn't even in the scope of the books, then it will not be in the attention of the public, and that in turn puts work on us as the original fans in explaining exactly what Fallout means aside from "DUR...I shoot super-mutants in der wasteland!" Hell, we've even had people dumb enough to think that super-mutants are irrelevant to the Fallout storyline, given Fallout Tactics.
Unless the core gameplay of Fallout is adhered to, in some way as I've described my previous post, then it will be doing the Fallout franchise a great disservice, as if any of Herve's other ideas have been anywhere as bright.
Indeed, it does, which is why I have to laugh when someone previously made excuses as to why it had to be dumbed down.
Not really. Not at all. Skills are totally differe...oh, wait, I forgot. The character system is optional.
I give up trying to convey the differences between original print in relation to class and class-less game dynamics... D&D helped set this mindset in computer games for years, and oddly enough, I have to point to Bethesda's Arena for a good example of what was created in a different style for a reason. It was for someone to select exactly how they wanted to make their character, and provided for it to a degree. Fallout was designed with the character system in same way, but with a far heavier P&P-style application instead of Arena/TES' action style. Now Fallout's being skullfucked into the P&P system designed for people who can only stand console games and need to be rewarded with loot for moving their lazy ass only as far as required to roll a die. I have to cite Pigrat in this very thread as living evidence.
You're going to have to try better than "It can be an optional rule some DMs can mod in if they're interested."
From the start, it's obvious that "Remember Wasteland?" was TOTALLY lost on you. Wasteland was not only a good CRPG for its time and a long time into the future, but it was the best post-apocalyptic CRPG along the same style. It went along P&P rules, down to multiple-party combat scenarios, which really hasn't been revisited in much of today's swill.
Ah, I get it. Another "I wouldn't care if it was FPS, it r teh setting and storey that matters!" thinker. Sorry, that doesn't work in this industry, I have to cite just about every example to date. As a Fallout fan, I don't give a fuck who wants what because Fallout's been whored out enough, but I want something like Fallout as I originally bought the game for, and what it was designed for and stood for.
"You shoot super-mutants in teh wasteland with a lazer mini-gun!!!!LOL!O!L!!!"
To those I describe Fallout to, since they are tired of the generically-flavored modern shitfests, they are more interested in the gameplay. It is what is most important to the game, as what would separate it from The Fall except that The Fall might never be released? Superficial story points? See, if the gameplay isn't like the game...then why the fuck should the fans care to take notice of it, when it isn't something they are interested in? And a lot of Fallout's core audience is the old-school, developers and common fans alike. Why? Because of the gameplay, not just because of the setting.
To YOU and your limited scope of awareness, though I'm certain that is intentional narrow-sightedness. I realize you only care about the setting and plot. I, however, am fully aware of why they put "Remember Wasteland?" onto the box, and why they designed the game that way when Diablo and other games (like Ultima) were going towards action gameplay. I also care about the whole of the game, and the gameplay. It doesn't make much sense to suddenly go from a SETTING where everyone is common until they achieve a notable skill in something, to a class-based system that more often than not results in what I have been getting across to you about gameplay. Gameplay affects the setting composition, too.
Well, if this is the viewpoint of the one who converted Fallout to P&P, which should make you pretty knowledgeable about the subject, I'm having even less faith about the rest of the team.
Unfortunately, I don't think it's up to Jason to decide whether to make it SPECIAL or d20 - the publisher made that decision and we're stuck with it. Maybe let's focus on discussing how to make d20 suck less? How should the setting be described, etc - the areas where there's actually any choice left for the designers?