FEV and Downside?

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I surrendered myself to the mutants at the gate of the Military Base. I was taken in front of the Lieutenant and beaten because I refused to give up the location of my vault or submit to the dipping. The game in which I did give up my vault, I saw a horrific cinematic of people being butchered for no good reason. The only resistance I saw was from the Overseer, yet dead littered the halls. When I escaped from my cell, without having made any threats or performed any threatening actions, I was given a choice: capitulate and kill a good portion of the vault, be beaten once more or fight it out with the mutants on that floor.

This is not some peace-loving population forced to fight because of the harsh wasteland, this is an army forcing people to join or die. The Master was not a savior of the wastes, he was a terrible entity consumed by insanity.
 
When their in the vault, they are only killing those people who are resisting, either by fighting back or by running away. As far as you know, muties got on the vault PA system and warned them not to resist or flee, and when they did they were killed. You only see a few people die anyway, it's not a massive slaughter, and it wasn't slaughter that they were their for. They can't convert the dead.

Also, the leutenant refused to kill you, and went through great pains to explain the entire plan and the motivation behind it before doing anything worse then hitting you and putting you into a cell until you were ready to talk again. He knows he's right, and so should you after hearing all the information. Anyway, being hit and thrown in a cell is pretty good treatment in the wastes for someone with such valuable information which is needed immediatly. I doubt even the BOS would treat you better if you knew something that important to them.....
 
"Also, the leutenant refused to kill you, and went through great pains to explain the entire plan and the motivation behind it before doing anything worse then hitting you and putting you into a cell"

Oh, I was *only* beaten! I suppose I should be a little kinder to him! After all, he went through "great pains" to explain to me his plan of world domination while he got his jollies from flogging me!

"When their in the vault, they are only killing those people who are resisting, either by fighting back or by running away"

Yes, I suppose if they surrendered unconditionally and had their humanity taken from them they would have been just fine. Some choice: be butchered or lose your identity forever.

"As far as you know, muties got on the vault PA system and warned them not to resist or flee, and when they did they were killed"

Possible, but then in that case you have to ASSume quite a lot, and you know where ASSuming gets you.

"You only see a few people die anyway, it's not a massive slaughter,"

You're still ASSuming.

I do find it remarkable that you are so staunchly in favor of this Mutant Inquisition, but there's no advantage to it. Aside from the Pros and Cons listed in the first post, there's no guarantee that the Master's plan would even work. Either you're too stupid to think for yourself, or you're still exactly like a human except you're big, ugly and can't reproduce. Even if the Master had succeeded in converting or killing everyone, there would still be strife and still be fighting amongst the mutants. Hey, even if you did have the same personality, at least you'd have the advantage of being big and ugly!

"Unity or death! Unity or death! The Master is our savior! Unity or death!"
 
I know this may get me flamed; but I have to say it. The Master kind of reminds of Hitler. You know; the one race allowed only kind. I personally don't like that kind of thinking. The Master has obviously suckered a lot of people into buying his baloney. The Master wants power; and on top of that he is a racist. He butchers people just because they don't bow before him. Is that really "good"? Remember, he sends his mutants to wipe out the ghouls; and also anhilates the entire Hub; as well as everything else that's gets destroyed if you don't complete the game quickly or deal with various quests properly. The Master; and his goons... err super mutants love mass destruction; and bullying people into doing what he wants. That is NOT a good thing.
 
Wow. Someone else in this thread is thinking. Yes, the Master and his Unity are remarkably similiar to Hitler and his master race.
 
I`m pretty much with Doyle and Volourn on this; maybe it`s from all the political sciences classes, but the Master, for me, is one of the best examples of political theories based in several german authors from the XIX century, and their followers from the 20`s and 30`s decades of the last century. Wrapped up in a wild 50`s b-movie atmosphere, but nonetheless evil. Pure evil.
 
Quite a few of the things you guys said are true, and honestly, I'm kinda getting sick of always posting about this (I really don't care that much), but there is one MAJOR difference between the Master and Hitlers Plans... Hitlers plan called for an entire race of people to be killed only and a ruling class to be established which had to be born. In in the Masters plan, on the other hand, The race which he consideres Inferior isn't killed, they are mutated and they become the ruling class, eventually the one class, made greater then they are. Instead of Mass Genocide with millions of dead w/ Hitler, there is a new and greater people with a better chance of survival with only a few hundred dead w/ the Master.

However, the few hundred that die dwarf the amount which would succomb to the wastes, the unforgiving lifestyle, radiation, raiders, and the typical way that humans bicker and kill over nothing in the wasteland, even the most peaceful and kind-hearted fellow isn't free from that in a lawless land. The Human body just isn't cut out to take that kind of constant abuse, or the human mind from a lack of society or discipline turns feral and troubled from the constant struggle, from the harshness a life driven only to survive. Those few hundred which die alone in the wastes are nothing compared to what the FEV could save.

Simply the stronger body alone would save that many from the monsters and environmental perials of the waste. The Unification of humanity could save countless more from themselves and the acts of the violence perpetrated on each other, even on themselves. I say, instead of robbing them of it, the Unity could be the one thing which saves the last of humanity which exists in the souls of the survivors of the apocolypse.

There... Put that in your pipe and smoke it :-)
 
[font size=1" color="#FF0000]LAST EDITED ON Feb-10-02 AT 02:35PM (GMT)[p]Read my other posts, hippy. This isn't a peace-loving commune we're talking about. They killed people for the sake of it, before and after the Master was dead. They didn't use threat of force as you suggested, but they blatantly used lethal force.

Being dipped in FEV didn't make them better people at all. They were either rock-dumb, or they were exactly the same mentally except they were big, ugly and sterile.

There's no profound truth in the Master's plan; it's a plan conceived of insanity.
 
I beg to differ. The FEV did in fact make them better people. Everywhere else in the game you will find people who are only in it for themselves or outright traitors to their community, but not among the mutants. Every single mutant in the game, from the smartest to those dumb as a box of rocks, were working for the Unity without exception. Not a single one was even willing to barter with a person to gain supplies for themselves.

And no, they didn't just kill people constantly. How do you think there got to be so many of them in the first place? Heck, they didn't even attack the vault dweller when he walked in full of guns and ammo with his mission of destruction, first they offered her the chance to join them and even took the time to try to convince her.

Lethal force is the only force in the wastes no matter who you are... If you arn't willing to kill then you arn't going to succeed. It is only by killing the most violent who attack or defend themselves with guns can the rest ever be saved.

Anyway, if they were the same mentally then why didn't any of them simply escape? You'd think that if they were captored and dipped against their will then they wouldn't fight so whole heartedly for the unity then, would they? You would have whole patrols of mutants running away or attacking the master or leutenant with the very guns they gave them...
 
[font size=8 color=ff0000]PRAISE THE MASTER!
PRAISE THE HOLY FLAME!
[font size=3 color=dddddd]You can't bring the Wasteland back from the road to a stone age by pacifism and democracy.​




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[font size=1" color="#FF0000]LAST EDITED ON Feb-28-02 AT 03:57AM (GMT)[p]Well, that's the point, Doyle - Master is not a Jesus Christ or some saint who'd try to change the world full of thugs, drug dealers, prostitutes, marauders, and mercenaries by a kind word and turning of other cheek. He is a rational man who saw the fault in human nature and took what seemed the most logical step to a man of his power - reunification of all world and elimination of superstitious differences like race, religion, and political platform.

FEV and his supernatural powers will be the tools of the Master to bring humanity and all living things closer to perfection - just imagine a world without diseases, radiation, where the man is not a frail figure prone to all sorts of mishaps, led by a being genuinely concerned for the well-being of people under his care (not for the money, for he is above that, not for the power, for he is now above that also, not even to please his ego)!

Of course, there is also a heavy price to pay for this world of the future - individualists, power-mongers, and various charismatic anti-social individuals will try to stop the Master, yelling about the intolerance of opposition and free choice (no doubt, all while racketeering the surrounding settlements in exchange for the "support of freedom's cause" and killing and torturing captured super-mutants).

Indeed, the individualism, one of the most characteristic elements of the American civilization, will be ruthlessly stamped out as an obstruction on the way of progress. But are we really in a position to judge about these things from our time? We are all well-fed and cared for, we always have a warm home to return to, we don't have to fight for our very life on hourly basis, and we are surrounded with magnificent luxuries of a modern world. What do we REALLY know about the bleak future portrayed in "Fallout"?

Could it be that the Master, not a killer, but a CONQUEROR of a slowly dying post-apocalyptic Earth, is humanity's first REAL savior? Is he the one who can make a REAL difference, not just postpone the next world war until the time when survivors will forget and engage in another blood-shedding conflict?

I believe that in the end, when the dusts of the history settle down, we will see that humanity would be better off under Master's care. Because, Doyle, I believe that what you put in is what you get out, and Master was ready to pay for the glorious future that waited humanity down the road.

-ApTyp,
-Childer of the Cathederal.



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about being sterile. in FO2 doesnt marcus say something about muties not being sterile after all, and that it just takes awhile for the "juices" to start flowing again (i believe those were his words) maybe its something like hitting puberty again. heh.. but yeah, mutants arent sterile. unless i misunderstood what marcus said.
 
"Everywhere else in the game you will find people who are only in it for themselves or outright traitors to their community, but not among the mutants."

You don't really have much choice to observe the mutants though. They either ignore you, attack you on sight, or try to take you prisoner. No other "cities" do that, not even the raiders.

"Every single mutant in the game, from the smartest to those dumb as a box of rocks, were working for the Unity without exception."

Yes, if by "working for the Unity" you include being fodder. Most of the mutants at Necropolis (The ONLY place you find them aside from the Military Base and the Cathedral) completely ignore you until you attack. Most of the mutants at the Military Base are just filler--experience points with a gun.

"Not a single one was even willing to barter with a person to gain supplies for themselves."

Yes, they simply took all the supplies they needed. Wait, didn't you say they used violence only as a means of persuasion?

"And no, they didn't just kill people constantly. How do you think there got to be so many of them in the first place?"

I'm sorry. I should have said "killed and kidnapped people."

"Heck, they didn't even attack the vault dweller when he walked in full of guns and ammo with his mission of destruction, first they offered her the chance to join them and even took the time to try to convince her."

Well, when only one in five or six survives the process, a healthy-looking human is valuable. Because *I* approached without attacking them, they'd have no real reason to attack. For all they know, I could be a joiner or one of the Children.
Had I been a caravan guard, a ghoul at Necropolis or simply passing through the area, though, they'd would not have been so kind.

"It is only by killing the most violent who attack or defend themselves with guns can the rest ever be saved."

I find this statement rather ironic, considering the mutants do both. Wonderful logic you have, there.

"Anyway, if they were the same mentally then why didn't any of them simply escape? You'd think that if they were captored and dipped against their will then they wouldn't fight so whole heartedly for the unity then, would they? You would have whole patrols of mutants running away or attacking the master or leutenant with the very guns they gave them..."

A few things to think about in regards to that:

1) Many would lost their memories, and their identities. They would not be the same person, but they would still have personalities. That's what I meant when I said they were the same mentally: they still have emotions like love, jealousy, and greed; they still have prejudices; they still get angry and violent. When/If they reached their common goal, global domination, they would lose their sense of unity and start behaving like normal humans again.

2) Those that retained their memories wouldn't have much choice. The mutants already managed to make a bad name for themselves and aren't welcome anywhere else. If the Master's army didn't kill deserters themselves, other denizens of the Waste would have.

You're really not making a point here, Diablo. I can see that mutants are striving for one common goal, I knew that before the thread was ever posted, but I certainly don't see them being better people. In fact, they seem to be some of the more violent characters in the game.
 
"He is a rational man"

"[strong]ra-tion-al[/strong]- [em]adj.[/em] 1) Being in the state of mind to kill four-out-of-five who join you and everyone who doesn't."

You might just be on to something, aptyp!

"who saw the fault in human nature and took what seemed the most logical step to a man of his power - reunification of all world and elimination of superstitious differences like race, religion, and political platform."

Yes, but he kills 80% of the world's population and reduces a lot of the survivors to morons.

"just imagine a world without diseases, radiation, where the man is not a frail figure prone to all sorts of mishaps, led by a being genuinely concerned for the well-being of people under his care (not for the money, for he is above that, not for the power, for he is now above that also, not even to please his ego)!"

Yes, but it's a world with one-fifth the population. A world that cannot procreate. A world that has no future.

"Indeed, the individualism, one of the most characteristic elements of the American civilization, will be ruthlessly stamped out as an obstruction on the way of progress. But are we really in a position to judge about these things from our time? We are all well-fed and cared for, we always have a warm home to return to, we don't have to fight for our very life on hourly basis, and we are surrounded with magnificent luxuries of a modern world. What do we REALLY know about the bleak future portrayed in "Fallout"?"

We know that for most people life is better than death, for most people personal freedoms matter, and for most people having children is better than not. These things were true when men lived in vicious, nomadic societies; when men struggled to populate the frontiers of the world; and when men engaged in violent, bloody war with one another. History shows us that even in horrible conditions these rights and priveleges were desirible, and the Master [em]is taking these rights from people.[/em]

"Could it be that the Master, not a killer, but a CONQUEROR of a slowly dying post-apocalyptic Earth, is humanity's first REAL savior?"

No.

"Is he the one who can make a REAL difference, not just postpone the next world war until the time when survivors will forget and engage in another blood-shedding conflict?"

No.

"I believe that in the end, when the dusts of the history settle down, we will see that humanity would be better off under Master's care."

Why? Because they're so fewer people left?
 
>"[strong]ra-tion-al[/strong]- [em]adj.[/em] 1) Being in the
>state of mind to kill
>four-out-of-five who join you and
>everyone who doesn't."
>
>You might just be on to
>something, aptyp!

Actually, according to the www.webster.com, it means "having reason or understanding b : relating to, based on, or agreeable to reason" ;-)

>Yes, but he kills 80% of
>the world's population and reduces
>a lot of the survivors
>to morons.

So what if he kills 80%? The humanity can regain their numbers (see below). And methinks FEV's intellect-reducing qualities can be attributed to the mutation.

Also, remember Master's words - he was willing to kill those who OPPOSE him, while letting the rest to live off their days (unable to breed, though).

>Yes, but it's a world with
>one-fifth the population. A
>world that cannot procreate.
>A world that has no
>future.

I'm sure there is a way for supermutants to procreate themselves, Master just has to find it. And if it doesn't work, he can keep a fresh stock of pure humans to "dip" them once they reach a condition where it will happen without the threat to their lives.

>We know that for most people
>life is better than death,
>for most people personal freedoms
>matter, and for most people
>having children is better than
>not. These things were
>true when men lived in
>vicious, nomadic societies; when men
>struggled to populate the frontiers
>of the world; and when
>men engaged in violent, bloody
>war with one another.

Is that what american history 101 teaches you, Doyle? I heard quite the opposite from my history teachers.

>History shows us that even
>in horrible conditions these rights
>and priveleges were desirible, and
>the Master [em]is taking these
>rights from people.[/em]

All for the future of the human race, Doyle. Master doesn't look at the horrors of the present because he is looking into the future, thinking ahead.

>"Could it be that the Master,
>not a killer, but a
>CONQUEROR of a slowly dying
>post-apocalyptic Earth, is humanity's first
>REAL savior?"
>
>No.

Yes! :-)

>"Is he the one who can
>make a REAL difference, not
>just postpone the next world
>war until the time when
>survivors will forget and engage
>in another blood-shedding conflict?"
>
>No.

How do you know?

>"I believe that in the end,
>when the dusts of the
>history settle down, we will
>see that humanity would be
>better off under Master's care."
>
>
>Why? Because they're so fewer
>people left?

You haven't read anything I said, did you? :/

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[font size=1" color="#FF0000]LAST EDITED ON Mar-11-02 AT 02:24AM (GMT)[p]"Actually, according to the www.webster.com, it means "having reason or understanding b : relating to, based on, or agreeable to reason"

You missed the point. I was making clear that his actions are not rational.

"So what if he kills 80%? The humanity can regain their numbers (see below). And methinks FEV's intellect-reducing qualities can be attributed to the mutation."

What's your point? Humanity could reproduce far more easily [em]and[/em] those 80% (That's 80% of the people who actually get dipped mind you) would still be alive, plus all the other people that would have resisted, or been in the way (ghouls, for example). BTW, those intellect reducing qualities are because of exposure to radiation. That's why he was willing to slaughter a whole people (ghouls) just for the [em]chance[/em] of finding a stock of people that wouldn't mutate into morons.

"Also, remember Master's words - he was willing to kill those who OPPOSE him, while letting the rest to live off their days (unable to breed, though)."

The 20% that survive, that is.

"I'm sure there is a way for supermutants to procreate themselves, Master just has to find it. And if it doesn't work, he can keep a fresh stock of pure humans to "dip" them once they reach a condition where it will happen without the threat to their lives."

So, it's either complete speculation/luck as to whether they'll be able to breed (Keep in mind the Master might not have the ability to work out the problem; he didn't even modify the FEV, at least initially) or complete reliance on "lesser" people for survival of the species.

Frankly, I don't think the master would suffer to allow normals to thrive within his mutant utopia. Even if he did, the chances are great that they would all be exposed to radiation, which would make them stupid when they mutated. Either way, his plan doesn't work properly.

"Is that what american history 101 teaches you, Doyle? I heard quite the opposite from my history teachers."

If the opposite were true, then there would be no people left alive today because they would have killed themselves or simply not reproduced. Logic: it [em]can[/em] be your friend.

"All for the future of the human race, Doyle. Master doesn't look at the horrors of the present because he is looking into the future, thinking ahead."

I don't really think you can called the savior of humanity when you only manage to avert future strife by killing 80+% of the population.

"You haven't read anything I said, did you? :/"

I have, and it doesn't make a lick of sense. It seems like you're arguing for the sake of it, rather than posting anything you actually think about beforehand. Frankly, you have nothing written nothing worth reading on the topic.
 
Chris Avellone, the creator of New Reno, said in the Fallout bible it was just a joke. He even apologized for it.
 
Where do you get the number of 80% of the worlds population being killed? that seems kinda ridiculous. The only part I remember that said anything about a failure rate of FEV was Richard Greys audio diary... Well, he had no idea what he was doing then and those people died from having to much radiation damage. Once he found people with low counts then it went very smoothly.

Remember, that's why the main reason that he wanted the vault... those inside were unradiated and would mutate well, becoming strong, intellegent mutants. If he only cared about enslaving people or didn't care about how the people were after they were dipped then he could have simply taken over shady sands or junktown without a problem to create his army. Heck, he could have even dipped all the Children of the Cathedral and had more then enough to conquer all of the map area of FO 1.

Also, the reason that some of the mutants were dumb was that the people who they used to be had to much radiation damage in their brain. People like that would most likely have a short life-span (do to cancers and what not) and may be sterile anyway, or produce kids with birth defects. Only a few mutants in the game were dumb... Harry and his watershed clan. At least as many were smart... Flip (in the military base), the Leutanant, and Marcus in Fo2. If you remember from that same Richard Grey audio diary that you alluded to before, the master didn't count the stupid mutants as successes. Obviously, he wanted very much to make people better with FEV then to make people ugly and stupid, and he wouldn't have continued on if that was impossible.

Those rights of freedom and children you discribe are valid arguements, but not in the fallout world. In todays world I would agree with you, but you have to remember that in the fallout world nothing is certain. Individual rights don't count for much when you your worried about the raiders and violent criminals, camped just outside your door, and where your next meal is coming from. Those children would have it even harder. The rate of child death would probably be even greater then the middle ages, with only 2 or 3 out of a family of 7 would make it to their 18th birthday.

On the matter of sterility. Quite a few people would already be sterial from the radiation, and it's those same people who would concievable die from FEV. Once all of falout 1 is in the unity, just think of how many resources the master would have to work on the problem. The Vaults computer and scientist, Zax, the BoS scientists and their computers, everything like that. Now imagine all those people working single mindedly for one thing. That's a lot of resources to accomplish one goal... Remember, that's if the mutants are steril to begin with. Some people say that when time passes that mutants regain the ability to procreate. If you think scientifically it makes sense to me (Although this is only a game, so scientific thinking doesn't apply that much).

The master would allow normals to exist in his mutant utopia without question. The children of the cathedral is just that, normals that exist for the benifit of the unity, just the same as if human breeders were needed. If it was for the benefit of the unity, I believe he would do it

Humans mutated by the FEV virus do not lose all their memories and become different beings. That just doesn't make sense to me at all. Those same people who have apperantly just "lost" all their memories are still able to operate effectivly. If you lost all your memories through brain damage you wouldn't be able to speak or act intellegently at all. You wouldn't be able to follow orders or fire a gun. It doesn't make sense that just the parts of the brain that house memory would be destroyed. Anyway, marcus says he remembers what it was like when he was a normal, and so does the leutanant if you ask him. People have a tendency to forget what things were like quickly when things change, especially when it comes to conciousness. If your perspectives change then the new prespectives quickly become the norm while the old ones fade. I mean, if you try to feel another moment in time, even an eventful one like a great sadness or some kind of drug experience, you really can't feel the same way again or remember exactly what it was like. However, when it was occuring it was all there was, you can't really feel what it's like to be normal. I think it's the same with fev.

Anyway, i'll probably post more later as i'm tired of this right now... Pleasure debating with you
 
Well, I guess it all comes down to the personal sense of what is right and what is wrong. Doyle won't join the Unity and won't even tolerate it.

Speaking of tolerance - you know, it's funny how a democrat quickly turns into a raging maniac toward someone who happens to have a completely opposite set of morals, forgetting all about tolerance. I also found it quite amusing when anti-globalist rioters were too afraid to come riot in China because of the fear of being killed by the government of China - which only proves that they are just disturbed individuals looking for a way to have some destructive fun. Or the Palestinian protesters who throw rocks at tanks, get shot at, then retreat with their dead and wounded buddies, and vow revenge.

I'd probably stop debating the Master with Doyle, since I already see that it's going nowhere.

Doyle, would you kill a vicious tyrant and his army of thousand to save a million? And if it's about doing the greater good, how about killing a tyrant and an army of a million to save a thousand? Just curious about your answer.

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Assuming the tyrant had a plan as half-assed as the Master's, I would kill the thousand to save a million and the million to save a thousand.
 
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