FEV and Downside?

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That's not consistent with what you always say. How could you ever justify killing a million to save a thousand? Even killing a thousand to save a million is a tricky situation. Apperantly giving up some civil liberties and some individuality and charisma to save and improve a great deal of lives is something your against. So your saying it's better to kill people then take their small freedoms?
 
Killing million to save a thousand?! Now THAT'S insanity!

In that case, who gave you the right to oppress million people for the good of a selected few? And the statement that Master's plan is 'half-assed' is laughable - who gave you the right to judge? After all, if you are wrong, a million would die. Didn't you even stop to think about that? If you dogmaticaly think you know better than the Master, and willing to sacrifice the majority for the good of the selected minority, wouldn't that make YOU the tyrant and oppressor? In other words, wouldn't you and the Master have much in common (well, except the fact that you don't have a neuroconnector and a band of phony followers from a dirty human stock)?

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[font size=1" color="#FF0000]LAST EDITED ON Mar-24-02 AT 05:35PM (GMT)[p]No, it's not really the same. The Master's plan was flawed, it would have destroyed the human race for good. If the leader of the million planned on doing the same thing, I would kill the million, assuming there was no other way. Would that make me a tyrant? Maybe, but I'm just defending my race.

Check out my response to Diablo to see clearly why killing the million is NOT insane.
 
You're not the most consistent bugger yourself.

In any case, the plan *does not* save and improve lives. Most people, AS YOU ADMITTED, have too much exposure to radiation to survive the transformation with intelligence intact, or even just survive. Since the Master views these people as a threat, AS YOU ALSO ADMITTED, he would not allow them to live as humans. The end result is the same: most of them die from dipping, or the Master kills them anyway.

Finally, those million would end up dying off anyway because they can't reproduce.

Population of the world if I let the million live: 0

Population of the world if I kill the million: 1000 + children
 
>In any case, the plan *does
>not* save and improve lives.

The Plan does in fact save and improve lives. The lives are improved by the mutants being much tougher and more adapted to their environment then before, as well as many being smarter then they were when they were humans. Life in the Wastes is a constant struggle to survive for even the hardiest humans, but it's a breeze for mutants since they are immune to disease, radiation, and are far stonger then anything in the environment or people who would attack them. And they would work together

Also, the constant struggle between differing peoples would die out as more people were dipped. With no raiders and without the constant fighting that people who are slightly different create, even people who are only as different as living in a different town, you can't argue that countless lives wouldn't be saved almost immediatly

> Most people, AS YOU
>ADMITTED, have too much exposure
>to radiation to survive the
>transformation with intelligence intact, or
>even just survive.

I did not admit that, I admited that QUITE A FEW of the people that were dipped wound up stupid. That is not simply because they were regular people in the wasteland, but it was because of the specific people they were. Think about it, The people who they unity were able to capture were almost entirely wonderers, caravan people, and other people on the fringe of society. You learn this because the only people concerned about missing people are carvan drivers and such. There is not a large amount of people who other people care about missing from towns and such.

These people obviously travel far more and to more dangerous areas then regular people and in turn soak up much more radiation and other contaminants in the process. If I remember correctly, Necropolis was heavily radiated as were a few areas down south. Just a few trips to these types of radiated death holes would get them to many times the standard amount of rads.

Also, if you've ever talked to the nightkin in the cathedral you will see that they, while grumpy, are at least as smart as a standard person. All of their replies are worded with proper grammer and seem more intellegent then average. So there are quite a few of smart mutants even from the poor stock the master was able to find.


Since
>the Master views these people
>as a threat, AS YOU
>ALSO ADMITTED, he would not
>allow them to live as
>humans.

The master views people the way they were as a threat in the game. This is because those people are violent and heavily armed. How could you blame him? If just the brotherhood of steel attacked him they could do serious damage and were obviously a threat.

However, If he took most of their guns away and such instruments of war like power armor I don't think they would be considered threats anymore. Things under your control don't threaten. Anyway, his plan called for many humans to be sterilized and released if they choose not to join the unity, so he obviously didn't consider them threats.

The end result
>is the same: most
>of them die from dipping,
>or the Master kills them
>anyway.

I don't know why you think that most people die from dipping. There is not a HUGE AMOUNT of people missing in FO that would account for all those dead that you think must have existed for the number of mutants that there were. Nobody in the game says that most people die from dipping, in fact if that were true, i don't believe the master would have continued it. He wasn't out to kill people, only help them evolve and be better then they are, which they have to be, in order for humanity to have a good chance of survival in the wasteland


>Finally, those million would end up
>dying off anyway because they
>can't reproduce.
>
>Population of the world if I
>let the million live: 0

>Population of the world if I
>kill the million: 1000 +
>children

This is the only part of your argument that makes much sense at all. However, the population if they win isn't zero, it is a great deal of mutants that live for much longer then humans which a far better standard of living. While it is true that they may have problems reproducing, as we have discussed in previous posts there are ways around this specific problem. If this isn't done then humanity would just continue to rip itself apart untill there are so few left and in such dire straights, they are hardly worth saving.

I forget how long the time frame for FO is, but think of all the people who died compared to the number that must have been born during that same time frame. Any way you slice it probably at least 30x died then had the chance to be born, and such numbers would continue.
 
But, the Master was the big-boss of a game! Of course he is evil.

The final boss of E.V.O was evil the final boss of Dark Wizard was evil they are always evil!

By the basis you argue I could say that Shady Sands was a group of people banded together for a certain goal; to live and prosper. The simple difference is that Aradesh didn't go around slaughtering people and kidnapping the rest for slave labor. Had the Master simply waited and allowed people to join he would of got the cream of the crop, those with no radiation and he would of been stronger. But the thing is the master was in too much of a rush he just couldn't sit and allow the future to come no he had to force it. Look a society can exist with out having to force themselves on others. The master may of done what he thought was right but he killed to many people. Look he may of had a better way he might of been able to save the entire world but he simply shouldn't of forced himself upon everyone. Diversity of belief and thought is what allows things to be done.
 
[font size=1" color="#FF0000]LAST EDITED ON Apr-11-02 AT 02:51AM (GMT)[p]>But, the Master was the big-boss
>of a game! Of
>course he is evil.
>
>The final boss of E.V.O was
>evil the final boss of
>Dark Wizard was evil they
>are always evil!

>By the basis you argue I
>could say that Shady Sands
>was a group of people
>banded together for a certain
>goal; to live and prosper.
> The simple difference is
>that Aradesh didn't go around
>slaughtering people and kidnapping the
>rest for slave labor.

No, that's not using the basis that i've argued. Shady Sands was a group of people banded together for a purpose to live and prosper, but the only purpose is for shady sands (through themselves) to live and prosper. Even if they live up to those ideals, they still trade with other people and eventually war with them, just because they are "From Shady Sands" and those other people "are outsiders". It is already happening in FO1. They are being preyed upon by raiders and cannot even defeat a simple nest of radscorpians without your help. They also are distrustful of you and won't give you anything to help you on your quest with out them gaining financially, even after your return Tandi to them. Like I said, eventually these small towns would turn to waring on each other for resources and just pure distrust. Even if a "nice" place like Shady Sands didn't start it, a more warlike place eventually would. The unity would prevent people from getting into conflict at all, but especially for those small petty reasons like where a person happens to live or what race they are.

And, even though the Shady Sands residents are loosely banded together as a society, they still do not cooperate with each other simply for the good of the whole. If only 30% of those people would have attacked either the scorpians or stood up to the raiders they could have driven them away. They were each out for the most financial gain they could easily get without risking themselves. If shady sands was part of the unity, the mutants would have destroyed the scorpians and also taken care of the raiders either by killing them or dipping them quickly by working together. They would save many lives that way, not to mention the fact that a radscorpian or a raider armed with a pistol isn't much of a threat to a super-mutant anyway.

>Had the Master simply waited
>and allowed people to join
>he would of got the
>cream of the crop, those
>with no radiation and he
>would of been stronger.
>But the thing is the
>master was in too much
>of a rush he just
>couldn't sit and allow the
>future to come no he
>had to force it.
>Look a society can exist
>with out having to force
>themselves on others.

I agree with this point but it does have some flaws. Namely, not to many people would want to become big, smelly, ugly mutants. Let's face it, most people are out for themselves 10x more then they care about their community, and 100x more then some abstract idea like what's best in the long run for the world </)>. sure, there would be some intellectuals who agree with it and would join, but for the most part he would only get the lowest wrong of society, people who only want to be stronger and tougher then their neighbors no matter what the cost. When you factor in that mutants are shot on sight for the most part in the Fallout world then any kind of success by this method would be extremely remote.

I would argue that that only way that a mutant society like this can exist in the fallout world is by forcing it on others. Just imagine what would have happened if the BOS or some raiders would have heard of the master when he didn't have an army, like if he only dipped those that wanted it. At the first word of the "unification of humanity by mutation" the BOS would have killed him instantly, most peoples would have because it would just sound like insanity until you consider it fully. If some raiders found out that there were some nice guns there, they would just just killed him mindlessly.

The
>master may of done what
>he thought was right but
>he killed to many people.
> Look he may of
>had a better way he
>might of been able to
>save the entire world but
>he simply shouldn't of forced
>himself upon everyone.

But you have to understand that he took all steps to avoid killing people. Even if you don't think he had any compassion, the dead don't add mutants to his army. And force is the only way for something so easily misunderstood and vilified in the wastes as the unity. The only way it can possibly survive is to create a powerful army, and the only way the unity can save mankind is to mutate all of it.

The speed and hostility with which the master attacked to achieve his goals also serves as a way to preserve life. Look, no town or vault which isn't ready for an attack is going to have a chance to get ready for one the size of the unity if it comes suddenly , and hardly anyone would be willing to basically commit suicide fighting a vastly overwhelming force. So instead of having long drawn out conflicts where most of the humans which are brave enough to fight for their homes die when they know about the unity as it moves slowly and calmly toward them asking for recruits, the town is simply over-run without much of a conflict and saves both human and mutant lives. Then later on when all the townspeople are mutants the next town is that much easier to take.

Diversity
>of belief and thought is
>what allows things to be
>done.

Those things allow for things like Art and Technology to advance quickly. But when your worried about simply surviving or driving toward a specific goal then people working together with one mind is far superior. We use this same concept with our military today
 
I am sorry for digging up this old post, but after reading it I am compelled to put in my two-cents. It shocked me that anyone would see the Unity as a good thing. After reading the post the general feeling I got was joining the Unity was the only means of survival. That may be so, but to survive for what? The point is to save humanity, and by joining the Unity you become a mutant so in fact your motivation is flawed in that you are rapidly extinquishing the human race. I would rather live in a decaying human society then a mindless mutant utopia. The Master may not be evil, but he is definetly a mad man by forcing his plan on everyone. Diablo I don't know what country you live in, but in the United States our military forces are highly diversifed. That is what makes them so effective and adaptable to any situation. I also do not agree with how you keep saying preserving life. Who's life is it we are preserving? By surrendering and being dipped their human life is over.
 
The mutants arent even perfect either. Look in FO2, Francis & the mining dude. Francis murdered a group of humans because their ideals were different. Granted there are good mutants like marcus, some are bad (just like humans). Being a mutant is like being a permanent peon, not having your own free will, basically being a mindless slave. Basically the master makes up his "utopia" and the mutants follow along with it, not realizing they have no freedoms. Its brainwashing, no free speech ect. Your seriously telling me that if you were offered the chance to dip, knowning its a 1/5 chance of survivng and that you would lose your memories you would do it? Also forceing people your own beliefs is completly wrong and unthoughtful. Yes it is exactly like hitlers plan. Sure its assimilation, not genocide, but what other differences are there? Anything that isnt assimilated is dead. Kinda sucks if you ask me. Isnt diversity one of our best qualities. Being such a diverse world is amazing, you can learn so much from others its just incredible. If everyone was the same it would be kinda boring.
 
Doggedmeat:
<<After reading the post the general feeling I got was joining the Unity was the only means of survival. That may be so, but to survive for what? The point is to save humanity, and by joining the Unity you become a mutant so in fact your motivation is flawed in that you are rapidly extinquishing the human race.>>

The Unity is the best means of survival for those that are left in the wastland. Without it, humanity would just continue to destroy itself untill there is nothing left worth calling human. The point might not necessarily be to save humanity at any cost as you put it, for 2 reasons. 1. Mutants are still Humans, they are simply mutated humans, for better or worse. and #2. It's pretty closed minded to say "we have to save the pure human race". To what end? It silly and close-minded to have that fore-gotten conclusion when in fact there may be something better to create from the human race. And create a better world.

About the military, I was simply saying that our military is a command hirecy (sp?) like the unity. The commander in chief commands the generals who command down the ranks, ideally without question or pause. Just because someone is in control doesn't make it bad.

<<I also do not agree with how you keep saying preserving life. Who's life is it we are preserving? By surrendering and being dipped their human life is over.>>

Your preserving all the lives of those who would otherwise die from radiation, raiders, wars, sickness, a great many accidents, or the normal harsh life in the wastes. It's true that there life would be changed by being mutated, but it wouldn't be over. It's better for them to live as mutants then die and never have a chance. The mutants would also have a better quality of life, a life free from the horrors or war and radiation. They simply live and survive much better in the wastes then humans.

GuitaristsBane:
<<The mutants arent even perfect either. Look in FO2, Francis & the mining dude. Francis murdered a group of humans because their ideals were different. Granted there are good mutants like marcus, some are bad (just like humans).>>

While this is true, your basing this on fallout 2. By the time that took place, the Unity had been shattered for 80 years. In that time, it's obvious that without strong leadership or really a hope for the future that many mutants simply gave up thier ideals and did whatever they wanted.

<<Being a mutant is like being a permanent peon, not having your own free will, basically being a mindless slave. Basically the master makes up his "utopia" and the mutants follow along with it, not realizing they have no freedoms. Its brainwashing, no free speech ect.>>

a peon compared to what? Once everyone was a mutant (or at least the majority or enough to have control of the wastes) There would be no difference between them. No one would be a king (except the master) and no one would be a peasant. That was the whole idea of the unity. Also, I believe that they had a free will, you can tell that by the fact that Harry will let you go from the watershed, even though he was supposed to take all normals to Mariposa, if your a girl and he likes you. Only the most radiation damaged of mutants who are stupid would I ever near consider to be either unfree or Mindless, and they had a mind of thier own anyway.

<<Your seriously telling me that if you were offered the chance to dip, knowning its a 1/5 chance of survivng and that you would lose your memories you would do it?>>

First of all, I don't agree with you that there is a 1 in 5 chance or survival or that I would lose all my memories. If you have a clear passage of where those odds come from I would appreciate reading it. The only thing I remember from the game that talked about the failure rate of dipping was due to the face that those that died had way to much radiation.

The mutants also retained their memories for the most part, at least the ones without significant radiation damage. Both the leutenant and Marcus talk about being human and remembering stuff from their past.

When I say I would agree to be mutated it's because i'm putting myself into the position of the vault dweller, not a person from reality. As this person, I have to look out for my vault #1 and the world #2. Since everyone from the vault, including myself, would have extremely low radiation count and even less radiation damage, The FEV virus would work very well and we would become strong intellegent mutants, who would have memories of our past. You have to remember that in the world of fallout 1, society is crumbling all around you. The criminal prey on the weak and honest, you never know when you will be shot in the back by somebody for hardly and reason or if you will die from the radiation contained in the water you are drinking. Also, the vault is slowly but surely breaking down and becoming unlivalbe. Those inside will soon have to come out and try to deal with this world. Those people who have had a sheltered life with no combat skill or any real world skills of any kind and no weapons wouldn't stand a chance.

So, if you don't join the Unity, world continues to crumble and countless die for nothing. Eventually your vault dwellers would either live our there lives cowering in the vault or would be forced to emerge and be shattered by the wastes.

If you do join the Unity, The world is thrown into violence for the short-term, but the future looks better. War, Desease, Radiation and Raiders are whiped out. Your vault dwellers face some casualties from those who resist, but the great majority emerge from the vault as ugly mutants, but more then prepared to live in the wasteland, in fact, they are on the winning side and will help shape the world.

PHew, that's enough for one day...
 
Hahahahaha! Whew... Born Americans would rather die of starvation, diseases and radiation sickness in the world where democracy, freedom of speech and human rights are basically extinct.

If Master would show up in America in the middle of 2002 with promise of mutant utopia, he would've been a villain, and I would support people who opposed him. If he would've showed up in some of the less developed country with less fat people, slackers, and inbred morons who feast upon the collosal achievements of their grandfathers (from a backward colony to world superpower in a few centuries - not bad at all), he would've probably been treated as a messiah.

Americans of today never felt the need for a strong dictator who would put the country together, and they have been brainwashed by ignorant chauvinists who don't have a slightest idea about what is going on in the rest of the world. Many countries are not ready for the democracy, and they will not be for a long long time.

Same with Fallout's America. The circumstances of that time favor strong action. Hell, I don't see liberal do-gooders in that desert!



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​
 
Id rather be in a state of anarchy than in a state of dictatorship. No dictatorship has ever worked. Almost all dictators rule by fear, and most are either killed by their people or overthrown or at least hated. I live in South Florida, ive seen what dictators do to people. Its amazing how much the Cuban people can hate Castro, just because he is a dictator with full rule over the country. Look at Afganistan, the people are so much happier now. Women arent stoned to death for talking to another man. Look, im sorry you people would rather be controlled by a dictator, not having any say whatsoever, but im happy with our form of government, its a hell of alot better than any dictatorship out there, even though we arent perfect.
 
"...Hitler shaped a battered Germany into an economic superpower..."
Dictatorship "works" when it elevates people's living conditions in exchange for their rights. That's why communist revolution in Russia "worked", and so did Hitler's regime. Now, I don't argue that it may mean only marginal improvement.

Btw, did you ever LIVED in country ruled by anarchy? I strongly doubt it. As for Afghanistan, I don't think it classifies as being ruled by a dictator. Looks more like a modern feudalism. Have you ever been in Afghanistan, or do you just follow the TV news who desperately try to justify to the Americans the invasion of foreign country?

Okay, this is going nowhere... Don't know why I even resumed this arguement...



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Neither worked actually. Russia fell into great decline, and Hilter was just oppressive, his country fell into decline also, especially after the war. No i havent lived in a dictatorship, but trust me, living with Cubans is close enough.
 
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