Folie à Deux

[UniversalWolf]

I realize this is a strange question, but I'm wondering if anyone has any experience with folie à deux.

I know some people who are exhibiting textbook signs of it. At least it looks like it to me. One of them is schizophrenic and the other one is starting to believe the deluisions.

Neighbors out to get them, the house is bugged...that sort of thing.

 

[Brother None]

Not really.

Except to note that oft-forgot but generally valid psychological rule that unless you have a degree it's easier to do damage with amateur psychology than it is to help people. Especially when we're talking serious and very, very rare conditions, as you are.

 

[UniversalWolf]

Not really.

Except to note that oft-forgot but generally valid psychological rule that unless you have a degree it's easier to do damage with amateur psychology than it is to help people. Especially when we're talking serious and very, very rare conditions, as you are.

From what I've been reading, it's one of those conditions that's so rare many experts don't believe it exists. But damned if it doesn't fit the description exactly.

Anyway, you can be sure I'm the least of their worries. I'm not really asking for advice about what I should do about it, since my obligations in this instance seem fairly clear. Luckily I'm pretty far removed from primary responsibility. I'm more interested in whether or not anyone else has ever seen a case. Lots of people have had experiences with schizophrenia, after all.

 

[Hoxie]

Schizophrenia?

I may have a bit of a problem with nervousness but that's about it, I don't get how someone would think their house is bugged and stuff like that though.

It's okay to be a little watchful or even a teeny bit paranoid, but when you start thinking your neighbors are "out to get you" and stuff of that sort that's when it's a lil much.

 

[Crni Vuk]

...
From what I've been reading, it's one of those conditions that's so rare many experts don't believe it exists. But damned if it doesn't fit the description exactly.

Well sometmes one should go with what he personaly feels. It took a while till my therapist realised that I was suffering effects of PTSD [Post Traumatic Stress Disorder] and I was able to convince him that my issues definetly was not just a depression (as the depression was more the effect of the disorder not the cause of the issue).

 

[UniversalWolf]

It's okay to be a little watchful or even a teeny bit paranoid, but when you start thinking your neighbors are "out to get you" and stuff of that sort that's when it's a lil much.

Just to be clear, folie à deux is not necessarily about schizophrenia. That just happens to be part of it in this instance. "Madness shared by two" is the accepted translation. It's when one individual's delusions are transmitted to another - almost like catching a contagious disease.

In the case of the people I know, one of them is a diagnosed schizophrenic who stopped taking anti-psychotic meds. This person now believes the house is bugged and the neighbors are out to get him, and that the dead are sending him messages predicting the future. Supposedly the dead have given him winning lottery numbers (yeah, it's that laughable), and only the people who believe it will win (so I guess we'll find out whether it's true or not).

By itself, this isn't really that remarkable. That's what schizophrenia is like. The strange part is that the schizophrenic's "roomate" has started to believe it all too. And he has no history of mental illness. I'm not sure I would've believed it was possible if I hadn't seen it with my own eyes, but it makes some sense when you consider contributing factors such as their social isolation and the pre-existing sympathy between them (which is something I won't get into in any more detail).

Suffice it to say that when they're indoors, they communicate by writing notes to each other because of the bugs.

The most striking thing about it has been how intolerant people are. I guess the notion of madness really freaks them out, because they can't seem to stop judging these two by the same standards you would use for normal people. If you knew people who were so obviously troubled, would you get angry if they insulted you in some completely irrational way? It's like getting mad at someone with a bad leg for not being able to run fast.

Well sometmes one should go with what he personaly feels. It took a while till my therapist realised that I was suffering effects of PTSD [Post Traumatic Stress Disorder] and I was able to convince him that my issues definetly was not just a depression (as the depression was more the effect of the disorder not the cause of the issue).

The problem is that treating this situation in an effective way would probably involve having the two of them forcibly commited to inpatient treatment of some kind, which is not that easy to do unless they become a danger. So far they aren't dangerous, just tragic.

 

[Radwaster]

Do you know if there are other drugs involved? The 'bugging' for example sounds very like amphetamine paranoia - I've known speed buddies who shared delusions. Acid buddies too.

 

[Crni Vuk]

The problem is that treating this situation in an effective way would probably involve having the two of them forcibly commited to inpatient treatment of some kind, which is not that easy to do unless they become a danger. So far they aren't dangerous, just tragic.

Then I am sorry to say (from what I think) its not possible to have any kind of cure at the moment. Fact is that you never can someone "force" in treatment. Thats just not possible. Its like a sitaution in jail with criminals. You can arrest them, but you cant "understand" the situation for them, if you know what I mean (I am not comparing the people with criminals just using the situation as analogy to make a point ... !).

If people dont realise their issues and have the intention to change it knowingly the chance for a change or cure are almost zero. I am not a doctor, but I've seen it a lot of times with people that have a lot of different issues (physicaly and mentaly) and the long time experience tells me that you can push people only so far with treatment. The pivotal step has always to come from the patient or to say it that way the person that has the issue(s).

 

[Brother None]

The most striking thing about it has been how intolerant people are. I guess the notion of madness really freaks them out, because they can't seem to stop judging these two by the same standards you would use for normal people. If you knew people who were so obviously troubled, would you get angry if they insulted you in some completely irrational way? It's like getting mad at someone with a bad leg for not being able to run fast.

I'm sorry, but that asinine.

You say the guy stopped taking his medication. That means it's not like getting mad at someone with one leg for not running fast at all. It's getting mad at someone with one leg who throws away his crutch and then abuses you for not carrying him on your back.

Whether physically or mentally disabled, I'm not up for helping anyone who refuse possible effort to help themselves, no matter the excuses. Calling that intolerance is a bit short-sighted.

 

[Crni Vuk]

BN I hope though you also tend to make sometimes exceptions to the rule.

 

[SimpleMinded]

Aye, I agree with Crmi or whatever your name is.

While it's hard to feel sympathy for someone who stops using meds and then suffers from the thing the meds were preventing, the meds aren't always the be all end all. A lot of the meds have nasty side effects that the people could be trying to get away from.

So while yea, they're definitely reaping what they sow... it's not entirely as clear cut as your crutch example.

 

[Crni Vuk]

from what I can say. It definetly never is. It has always to be seen on a individual level. Its always different for everyone.

Though of course it means as well that you sometimes to keep your self save and healty you have to get a distance, even from close friends or members of the family if needed. Or you would only eventualy damage your self to the point that you need help as well (which is not that uncommon), its not easy I guess.

 

[SkynetV4]

When it comes to mental illnesses its seldom as simple as that, Kharn. Have you ever been diagnosed with a mental illness and been prescribed meds for it?

As a depression recovering patient, I can tell you from firsthand experience how one would come to decide to stop taking meds.

Apparently, pharmaceutical companies don't give two shits for the well being of recipients of such meds.

Story time:

I suffered from the worst depression I've ever had on 2007. The reasons are not very relevant, though, if anyone is interested I can elaborate. Suffice to say, things got bad enough that I considered putting a bullet in my head as a reasonable way to fix the problems.

I had a moment of clarity and decided to visit a shrink. He diagnosed me as Schizoid Personality. While I thought it might be premature to diagnose in one session, I have no academic background to properly judge him or his diagnosis.

He prescribed me with Sertraline (anti depressant) and a tranquilizer whose names escapes me at the moment. I took these and felt relieved enough that I could sleep and rest again (the depression made me insomniac) and that those nasty feelings were dulled, which made the pain much more bearable. I ran out of the tranquilizer and from my progress the doc took me off it but encouraged me to keep taking the Sertraline, which I did until I discovered the bad side of Sertraline.

It may have reduced my sexual appetite...fuck, scratch that...it ripped my sexual appetite and any strong feelings I had. I was just there.

Everything felt gray...there was no happiness, no sadness, no anger...everything that made me tick was gone...I was just there...a live corpse, a puppet that breathed and ate. I made a hard choice, taking myself of those emasculating and deindividualizing (not sure if the word exists) meds.

I reduced the dosage from 1 every day, to 1 every other day. After a week, I went cold turkey. There were some nasty moments when the monster (that thing called love) tried to come out of its cage but carefully, I managed to simmer it down.

I've come to experience feelings again to some degree but much more dulled. Its easier to keep control of my emotions now and I'm a more positive person as I was before. The way I figured it, after being put between the gun and the hard place...everything that comes afterward can only be positive.

One very important thing I came to realize is that everything that happened was my fault. I neglected my feelings and failed to provide nourishment to my will to live, so falling into depression was a natural development and I could blame no one but myself.

I used my video games as an evasion from a world that was horrible, thinking that perhaps, I could escape it, albeit only temporarily. Now I have decided to construct a world that is acceptable to me, one little brick at a time.

How is this related to the OP? Well, its easy to judge someone for not taking their meds when you haven't been down that road.

 

[UniversalWolf]

How is this related to the OP? Well, its easy to judge someone for not taking their meds when you haven't been down that road.

I agree. There are drugs out there that have torturous side-effects, bad enough that the patient would rather be dead or crazy than keep taking them. That's why it's not unusual for schizophrenics to stop taking their psych meds.

One of my friends has Sarcoidosis (a completely different sort of disease) and his meds made him fat, obsessive-compusive, and asexual. He seriously considered not taking them even though he could've died without them. Luckily it wasn't a permanent situation.

You also have to consider that once someone starts having the kind of delusions I'm talking about in this case, he's no longer capable of making a rational decision about taking his meds again. In his mind, the meds prevent him from doing things like communicating with the dead; in short, he doesn't need them.

Whether physically or mentally disabled, I'm not up for helping anyone who refuse possible effort to help themselves, no matter the excuses. Calling that intolerance is a bit short-sighted.

The angry people in this case started gossiping about the "crazies" who just moved to town (and I know that to be true and not a paranoid delusion). Disapproval is one thing; intentionally aggravating the situation is another.

Do you know if there are other drugs involved? The 'bugging' for example sounds very like amphetamine paranoia - I've known speed buddies who shared delusions. Acid buddies too.

I can't say absolutely there are no other drugs involved, but I doubt it. Especially in the case of the non-schizophrenic, it would be highly out of character.

Then I am sorry to say (from what I think) its not possible to have any kind of cure at the moment. Fact is that you never can someone "force" in treatment. Thats just not possible. Its like a sitaution in jail with criminals. You can arrest them, but you cant "understand" the situation for them, if you know what I mean (I am not comparing the people with criminals just using the situation as analogy to make a point ... !).

You may be right but you have to consider that in the case of a severe mental disorder, the patient is going to be largely incapable of rational thought until he's back on his meds, so unless you somehow force him or persuade him to start taking them again, he's not going to be able to conclude that he needs to change his behavior. It's a problem.

Anyway, on an impersonal, analytical level the schizophrenia is only moderately interesting. It's the potential folie à deux that's really compelling. I think I might look for an expert who would be professionally interested - a college professor or a researcher, perhaps.

 

[Crni Vuk]

You may be right but you have to consider that in the case of a severe mental disorder, the patient is going to be largely incapable of rational thought until he's back on his meds, so unless you somehow force him or persuade him to start taking them again, he's not going to be able to conclude that he needs to change his behavior. It's a problem.

I know what you mean from my experience with people that had several heavy manias and thus had not any real control over their action or thoughts.

But what I wanted to adress is a more deep and fundamental attitude of the person with the issue. This are kind of things that not have usualy any effect of drugs, medications or therapy. Its the person itself, their character, how they see them self, the situation around and the people, in short anything related to their personality.

For example some teenager I have meet which has serious issues to get a training for a job. The reason for the difficulty to make a training is how he explains that he failed so many times in the past either in school or tests cause of mental issues, family and what else (I dont know the whole story). Now he has some kind of anxiety dissorder about job training. He knows that he needs a job, since otherwise there will not be any big finances in the future avialable but on the other side he doesnt really even start anything cause of the fear it might just be a mistake, either the wrong choice or the school might be to hard. All very reasonable points. But they dont help in any way. What should be done is just to try it. I know its easy to say, but in the end it always boil down to that. No medication or therapy can help here if the people dont decide to actualy finally DO something what ever it might be as long somethign is changing.

 

[Brother None]

BN I hope though you also tend to make sometimes exceptions to the rule.

Yes. For children and retards. If you want to claim you should equally be accepted to be an exception, if you claim to have no responsibility for your actions, then that is fine by me, but in my eyes, you just lowered yourself to the level of a child or retard, and I'll treat you exactly like I would either of those. Fair is fair, no? Can't have your cake and eat it.

Look, don't get me wrong, I'm not a right-wing retard who refuses to acknowledge the limits of human potential for self-realisation. But neither is the world very complex for me. I'm not going to make exceptions to mental patients that I would not for physical illness patients, because to me that is a slippery slope, one of retreating away from individual human will and towards a total lack of personal responsibility. In fact, the wholesale retreating of society from personal responsibility is - in my eyes - one of the biggest sociological concerns our culture faces, yet as far as I know it's mostly ignored.

Sociological philosophizing aside, I love helping people. Some of the best time in my life was spent in an orphanage in Russia, and if all goes well I'll spend 3 weeks this summer working in a homeless shelter in Seattle, and another 3 weeks on a reconstruction project in New Orleans. But it's exactly because I love helping people move forward so much that I hate people who refuse to with an irrational passion.

It's one of the reasons I love Russia. Sure, they die of alcohol poisoning, but when you look at the society as a whole, there are little as accepting of what comes as they. The economy is doing great? Ok. The economy is collapsing? That's ok too. You just square your shoulders and keep going. There's a lot to learn for us there, but we're learning it way too late, instead using modern medical science as a thin veneer to deny personal responsibility.

 

[Crni Vuk]

no worries BN I did not seen your statement as extreme or politicaly motivated.

I just tend to be a bit careful with all inclusive statements, but you never know about the peoples personal progress and experience.

Though its a bit strange that you say the world is not very complex in your eyes. I can not say that I made the same experience which would lead me to such a conclusion. When ever I think I understand a situation, particuilarly when people are involved it seems like there is behind all what one can see a lot more. But I personaly do not like to think in classes anyway. Not that I want to say you or anyone else would.

I'm not going to make exceptions to mental patients that I would not for physical illness patients, because to me that is a slippery slope, one of retreating away from individual human will and towards a total lack of personal responsibility. In fact, the wholesale retreating of society from personal responsibility is - in my eyes - one of the biggest sociological concerns our culture faces, yet as far as I know it's mostly ignored.

Something which I can agree somewhat from what I have seen and experienced. And I can see definetly that it is needed to get distance from such situations. Though, I can not see this as a rule in some way not for me at least it doesnt fitt my personality, but neither people nor the world is really rational anyway.

...
It's one of the reasons I love Russia. Sure, they die of alcohol poisoning, but when you look at the society as a whole, there are little as accepting of what comes as they. The economy is doing great? Ok. The economy is collapsing? That's ok too. You just square your shoulders and keep going. There's a lot to learn for us there, but we're learning it way too late, instead using modern medical science as a thin veneer to deny personal responsibility.

This pretty much reminds me to the whole Balkan Area and Serbia which is where my parents come from. That kind of attitude is all nice and very respectable, but this people have in general still a very long way to go when it comes acceptance and tolerance for example. I can not really say anything about Russia in particular (as I dont know Russia itself just Russian/Easteuropean people in Germany), but when it comes to Serbia from which some say has some similiraties with Russia (might be true I dont know it) I can only feel embarassed about the way for example gay people are traeted. I dont want to go in to many details, but from the things that I know, its really like in the midle age. Literaly. Everything has more to it then just good and bad, but I guess you know about that. We can and should all learn from each other, that for sure.

 

[UniversalWolf]

For example some teenager I have meet which has serious issues to get a training for a job.

From what I've seen schizophrenia is very different from this sort of attitude or motivational problem. It's a malady that exists from birth but often doesn't manifest until later in life, such as in the late teens or twenties. The schizophrenic I'm talking about had a productive life at one time. He used to be in the army, in fact, but obviously he had to be discharged when he started communing with the dead.

Dark humor, eh?

...if you claim to have no responsibility for your actions, then that is fine by me, but in my eyes, you just lowered yourself to the level of a child or retard, and I'll treat you exactly like I would either of those. Fair is fair, no? Can't have your cake and eat it.

That's pretty much exactly how I see this person. Very little or no responsibility for his actions. It's not a case of someone trying to "pull one over" on everyone. If you're ever confronted with someone who has a similar affliction I think you'll discover pity is a more appropriate reaction than scorn, but hopefully that will never happen.

 

[Crni Vuk]

I doubt its really scorn what was meant with it. The thing is just that with "pity" or better "self-pitiness" no one is helped. In situations which are bad, fine words butter no parsnips. At one point people have to go to action and changes.

I can not and dont want to judge the person which seems to have the issues since for that I would have to get known with them personaly, but at one piont you have to let things go and realise that you can not help people eventualy (anymore) if they are not at least ready to accept their own issues and as well try to change it, what ever if that try is blessed with success or not is another question, but one should not stop trying it, for the case that it might work sometime. I know I had to let things go one time with someone I knew very well and was as well very important, it was close to completely consume and destroy my self.