Gameplayer looks at Oblivion and Fallout 3

[Per]

Australian site Gameplayer (which previewed Fallout 3 in February) has published an article titled "Can Bethesda do Fallout?", going through a checklist of things that weren't too hot in Oblivion, and should be in Fallout 3. It should be noted they gave Oblivion PS3 a 9 "beyond epic, absolute masterpiece" verdict here, but they actually confirm the old Rybicki Maneuver theory is true: game journalists are incapable of criticising a game until it's been out for a while.<blockquote>The Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion was released two years ago to pretty much universal acclaim (its average ratio on gamerankings.com is 94%). It’s a great game, there’s no denying that. However, it wasn’t until we got over the initial ‘wow’ moment of playing this incredibly deep and immersive RPG that we started to pick out some rather glaring flaws. Hey, we still love Oblivion, but a blind man could see some of the shocking faux pas that become apparent after spending some time exploring Cyrodiil.</blockquote>So they're now ready to actually judge Oblivion without hype. The title "Bethesda needs to Level-up for Fallout 3 to be a Hit" and the intro promise a lot, but it is soon made clear that the writer both liked Oblivion and is fairly confident that Fallout 3 will be good.<blockquote>Engaging quests: We saw a few of these in Oblivion, those types of quests that are multifaceted and engaging, and which give you a real sense of accomplishment upon completion. Simple fetch quests aren’t going to cut it, Bethesda. That said, the promise of multiple endings in Fallout 3 (over 200 according to Todd Howard, the Executive Producer of the game) indicates that Bethesda is hard at work on developing the intricacies of player choice in the game – such as good, neutral and evil decisions. It’s a promising sign.

Humour: There were a quite a few humorous asides in Oblivion (who managed to find the guy singing about cliff racers?) so we’re confident that the Fallout brand of humour is in fairly safe hands. A recent demo shown to the press also revealed that one of the stats that the game tracks is ‘corpses eaten’ – how morbidly intriguing!</blockquote>Good NPCs are on the list, of course:<blockquote>Grand Theft Auto IV is putting a lot of effort into social relationships, making your friends like you by talking to them and doing missions for them. A similar system would be great in Fallout 3; imagine being able to strike up a conversation with one of your companions and have them mention a personal dilemma that perhaps you can help out with.</blockquote>Wait, didn't Bioware already do this for like every one of their NPCs ever?<blockquote>Maybe even a sex scene a la Mass Effect. Of course, this is pure speculation, but we can dream.</blockquote>The writer encourages everyone else to chip in with the wish list, since "maybe Bethesda will actually listen to us!" Yeah! Maybe this is the perfect time for it, unlike - say - 2 years ago, when NMA was hoping to give feedback before the game was, y'know, finished.

Link: Gameplayer: Can Bethesda do Fallout?.

Thanks to Sucks2BU

 

[Per]

I'm getting a little opinionated again but as I read the article the words "friggin asstards" steadily worked their way to the top of my mind.

Also it's good to see there's no lingering confusion about last week's "200 endings" debacle, oh wait sarcasm.

 

[Brother None]

His heart's in the right place (no wait, it isn't), but that's a pretty bad editorial.

Seriously, it takes them 2 years to get over Oblivion's hype, only to blindly believe Fallout 3 hype again?

Game journalism. What a blessing.

Hell, this article follows the rules of the Rybicki Maneuver 1:1. It's fine to rag on Oblivion now to hype Fallout 3. Them's good journalism

 

[Per]

I got so opinionated that now I can't recall writing half of it.

 

[Jidai Geki]

Game journalists differ from other media journalists in that they have no apparent ability to criticise products, especially hyped products, before they're released. They can correct this, occasionally, upon review. Assassin's Creed was released to less than stellar reviews from some of the major online video games websites, but if you read the previews for that game, they were nothing but glowing.

I'm getting tired of the fawning pre-release hype by 'unbiased' journalists who consistently fail to ask Bethsoft the tough questions that long-time fans are asking, and not getting the answers to.

It's nice to see that this writer saw the flaws of Oblivion, but as has been pointed out, it's two years too late. A movie reviewer who watched 'Gigli' and gave it a glowing review, only to go back two years later and critique it more harshly, would not be a movie reviewer for long. It's unacceptable for a professional critic to be blinded by the hype and overlook flaws because he's as giddy as a kid in a sweet shop. These people are paid to give an unbiased, professional opinion on a product, not be glorified fanboys feeding the corporate cash cow.

Oblivion was a good game, but it had a huge number of flaws. The basic problem was the much-vaunted size of the thing. It emphasised quantity over quality. It sacrificed a smaller number of involving quests and well-fleshed-out NPC's for a much larger number of mediocre quests and boring, characterless NPC's. It's like taking a pint of good lager and watering it down to make five pints. It may look like you've got five pints, but really you've still got one. And the taste of that lager gets lost in all the water.

Edit: quote from the article:

Also rumoured is a new health and radiation system, which immediately brings S.T.A.L.K.E.R. to mind. Actually, something similar to that game could work brilliantly. Imagine finding radioactive material that can affect certain stats, perhaps increase your attack strength or give you more resistance to radioactivity. We can visualise the ‘gotta get ‘em all’ collect-a-thon already.

Great, radioactive artifacts that increase your stats. Brilliant idea, totally in keeping with the theme of the first two games.

 

[Voice Of Reason]

somehow, I think these points on his wishlist aren't top priority neither for oblivion nor fo3. he not only misses the essential flaws of oblivion but also asks for features in fo3 that would do nothing for the game.

a sex scene. please. rent a porno.

 

[Jidai Geki]

somehow, I think these points on his wishlist aren't top priority neither for oblivion nor fo3. he not only misses the essential flaws of oblivion but also asks for features in fo3 that would do nothing for the game.

a sex scene. please. rent a porno.

The idea that sex should not be included in video games is something that holds back the legitimacy of the industry, frankly. No wonder it's viewed as a medium which releases products only for excitable pubescent boys who want to kill virtual people. Would you claim so contemptuously that those who were going to watch a film containing a sex scene should simply 'rent a porno' instead?

Sex, as long as it's shown within a valid context, is not something that devs should shy away from. If the story or situation calls for it, by all means throw a sex scene in there.

 

[Voice Of Reason]

oh, that's not my point. i have no problem with sexual content in computer games. hell, in fallout 1+2 you could have sex with many people. but it wasn't hyped in any way.

this guy sounds like "yes i want a sex scene that i can look forward to", as if it would be a special highlight. think about the hot coffee mod etc., people acted like hell froze over.

imho sex shouldn't be treated like a special feature but as something thats perfectly normal in a RPG such as fallout. it's a nice side feature, such as a talking brahmin, but not something to put on a wishlist.

what i want to say is: this guy lists a sex scene as something that, if it would have been included in oblivion, would have made it much better, and thus should be included in fo3. i think it doesn't matter at all if fo3 will have a sex scene or not.

I see this as a good example how wrong this guy got his priorities what the next Fallout should feature in order to make it the perfect game.

 

[Jidai Geki]

Ah, ok, fair enough.

 

[Brother None]

oh, that's not my point. i have no problem with sexual content in computer games. hell, in fallout 1+2 you could have sex with many people. but it wasn't hyped in any way.

Actually, "get married and have sex" was pretty hyped for Fallout 2.

And you can only have sex with one person in Fallout 1, I think.

 

[4too]

Judas Goat

Judas Goat




The game consumer is ill served by the supplicant posture of the assumed journalists that scribble -
for some means of exchange - scribble for hire.

In the great unwritten social contract that (may / may not) concern us all ,
where does 'boot licking' and 'ass kissing' enter the job description ... for this alleged format of journalism?
Or is this just the natural dysfunctional personality traits of submissive sycophants crawling to their next fix of co dependance?


Recently quoted this Escapist bit at the Codex**:

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/issues/issue_83/471-Bethesda-The-Right-Direction

Joe Blancato (2/6/07) quoting Todd Howard:

... "You can't repeat yourself," he said. "I think it's a common trap when working on a sequel to just add some new features and content, and keep doing that. I think that's a good way to drive your games into the ground. You start drifting from what made the game special in the first place. So with The Elder Scrolls, I'm careful to not repeat what we've done before, and to really focus on trying to recapture again what made the games exciting in the first place.

"A good exercise is to read old game reviews, because you get a much better sense of what made an old game tick, without being distracted by its aging. I could read you an old Arena review and you'd be hard-pressed to tell which of our games it was describing." ...

I don't see this call for fans to contribute at it's presumed innocent, self effacing, value.
On page six, the article directs those that care to a group hug on their forums:

... If there’s a point you think we’ve missed, be sure to head on over to our forums and post it for all to see – who knows, maybe Bethesda will actually listen to us! ...

B-soft's FO3 is predestined for the hind quarters of 2008, wouldn't one imagine it too late for a flurry of fan input?

And given Todd Howard's quoted design preference to go to game reviews FIRST AND FOREMOST, then why do we care?
We are not in that illustrious loop. Not our place in the food chain. Those who have tried to contribute at the B-soft forums are BANNED when they stray from the Radiant AI Scripting.
Our only whispered voice is on these forums, and very carefully choosing, what we buy and when we buy.

The lowest common denominator game consumer does not exist as a (nasal / mouth ) air breathing entity.
Being a business model construct, these mythic pawns can be used and abused with a group think of moral detachment.
Detachment means abuse.
Sociopathic nuances.
Somewhere are real people, who are exploited by the 'go to hell' attitude of game corporations and the misinformation shoveled by their hired scribblers,
and the 'professional' game sites.

Granted the scribblers can hide behind their aesthetic, their opinions, but they abandon a greater social responsibility.
If one is to be believable, and have value to the corporations they service, one presumes an obligation to that great unwritten social contract,
which may, or may not, include seeking / avoiding misrepresentation in that individuals' personal edition of life's small print.
If one is to be believable that personal edition of the great unwritten social contract surely implies ...

... thou shalt not be CAUGHT in a lie.

The lie? The gathering and grooming of a flock, not 'just' to submit input into Q 3-4 2008 game, in the here and now of 2008 Q 2,
BUT to SELL the game six months or so from this day.

Hype yesterday, hype today, hype tomorrow, one or two or a whole slew of lies in there somewhere ...

many game journalists are willing prevaricators in the cycle of abuse.

The text for this happy hype article is spread out over six web pages, six pages of ads, six pages of reloading bandwidth, a milk cow format of pay to pay.
Nothing is free, not even the lies.

Another 'lie of the moment' is the chaining of ''nostalgia'' to the games of quality. A not so subtle pissing on of past achievements.
Why?
Either the games of now and tomorrow 'suck',
or the narcissistic hired scribblers are small minded, and can't bear the concept of quality titles competing for attention and affecting
the future sales of their corporate god-fathers.
A game being what it is, is not * good * enough.
Mean spirits are not comfortable until they tear down and scent mark another ... anything ... , so their present whim can not suffer from any passing comparison.
The meta game by the rules of abuse.

Quality games are now only 'Nostalgia'.
'Nostalgia' is the new extruded projectile flung by the hired scribblers.
The missive of "nostalgia" is a set up, a double speak con, to rip off the true meaning of RPG and paste it on any box on any shelf.
This use of "nostalgia" chains games of quality into a ghetto of the past.
This use of "nostalgia" allows B-soft to pretend what is not ---> "is".
This use of "nostalgia" is part of the free ride bought and paid for.
This use of "nostalgia" is so game corporations don't have to try too hard to do what they can not do, create quality every time, and focus on what they can do,
which "is" to hype and therefore to lie.


Allow me to hand wave six more unit digits of personal opinion.

I don't see this article as a call for fans to contribute.
I see this as a ploy by a self elected opinion leader to generate buzz, while attracting eyes to six pages of advertising content.
I see a pumping up of happy talk for the future material gain of the game entertainment industry.
I see the intentional inflation of hype huckstering value of yet another hired scribbler and this web page space for procured profit.
I see a self anointed prophet leading the sheep to the point of sale.

I see a Judas Goat.





4too

////////////////

Footnote:
[** http://www.rpgcodex.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=23474&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=50]

4too-2

 

[Sander]

Actually, "get married and have sex" was pretty hyped for Fallout 2.

Yer. The back of the Fallout 2 box had something like:
- Sequel to Fallout!!!!
- Kill people bloodily!
- HAVE SEX SEX SEX SEX!
- Get married and whore off your wife!

You'd never think it was a good and critically acclaimed RPG if you looked at the back of that box.

 

[Brother None]

Heh, yeah.

We tend to ignore it a bit too much, but Interplay's PR department was almost as bad as Bethesda's. The difference was the BIS' staff insistence on talking to the fans (Hendee, back then), whereas Bethesda is just walled off.

But man, could Interplay PR spout idiocies at times.

EDIT: good post, 4too. I've noticed that nonsense surrounding the use of the term nostalgia, too.

 

[MrBumble]

The Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion was released two years ago to pretty much universal acclaim (its average ratio on gamerankings.com is 94%).

Unfortunately, a considerable amount of TES fans hated it...Too bad you forgot to mention it.

It’s a great game, there’s no denying that.

Yeah, y'know, just because...

Engaging quests: We saw a few of these in Oblivion, those types of quests that are multifaceted and engaging, and which give you a real sense of accomplishment upon completion.

Yeah, right. Unfortunately, the keyword was "few".

Humour: There were a quite a few humorous asides in Oblivion (who managed to find the guy singing about cliff racers?) so we’re confident that the Fallout brand of humour is in fairly safe hands.

Yeah, if humour lies in Radiant A.I, it is indeed in fairly safe hands. If you are counting on humourous situations and dialogs, then I wouldn't hold my breath.

Imagine being able to strike up a conversation with one of your companions and have them mention a personal dilemma that perhaps you can help out with.

It's easy if you try...It's called Black Isle.

 

[Voice Of Reason]

huh, didn't know that.
Never owned an original box of fallout, got both games with game collection packages.

perhaps that explains my neutral opinion concerning sex and PR

my point still stands. sex aint important in an RPG!

 

[SuAside]

Yer. The back of the Fallout 2 box had something like:
- Sequel to Fallout!!!!
- Kill people bloodily!
- HAVE SEX SEX SEX SEX!
- Get married and whore off your wife!

- Improved combat AI for friends and foes alike.
- Bigger, smarter, nastier enemies - more mutants, super-mutants, droids and ghouls who may join the adventure.
- No time limits, so you have all the time you need to explore the post-apocalyptic landscape.
- Sex and Romance - get married then you can pimp your spouse for a little extra chump change.
- More weapons that you can upgrade (eg. Put a laser sight on your new FN FAL Assault Rifle).
- Over 100 skills, called "perks", available to learn during the game.
- Upgrade any travelling companions with more dangerous weapons, tougher armour or even teach them new skills and abilities.
- Enjoy the best that retro-technology has to offer as you cruise the wastes in a newly-repaired car.
- Tougher choices, tougher consequences, somtimes you have to pick one side to win and no matter how small the choices are, it will affect the world you live in and not all have happy endings.

so quite a lot of nonsensical hype and downright lies.
obviously written by a PR monkey uninvolved in the FO2 creation.

funny, reading it back now, it's full of shit and spoilers. luckily i never read the back before buying it...

PS: an FN FAL is a battle rifle, not an assault rifle.

 

[Flick]

If you read the back of the box of any game then they are all gold instead of shit.

 

[Per]

Some Fallout boxes claimed that enemies who got away could return with their buddies to take revenge. Also you can shoot to "wound, cripple or kill as you see fit", except that it doesn't really matter a lot. The Starcraft box said you can "hide ground forces behind trees", which in the Swedish translation had become "hide air forces in the treetops", but with the arrow still pointing at a tank roughly positioned behind a tree - I don't know if either is true.

 

[Lingwei]

Fallout (1997) and Fallout 2 (1998) were ground-breaking games. Not only were they deeper than the Mariana Trench - with recruitable NPCs galore, a customisable SPECIAL character creation system, and even upgradeable weapons – but they were also filled with self-referential humour, something that afforded the Fallout games an inherent charm that is still the main aspect a lot of gamers remember today.

How come even when game reviewers are saying the right thing they always say it for the wrong reasons. Curious of him not to mention the c&c aspect or the quest design at all, apparently that isn't why it is deep. It's deep because it has upgradeable weapons.

However, it wasn’t until we got over the initial ‘wow’ moment of playing this incredibly deep and immersive RPG

1. It took you two years to get over the 'wow' moment?
2. It still doesn't sound like you have gotten over it.

Radiant A.I: This was touted as the best artificial intelligence program ever, and it turned out to be a little bit, well, arse

And I quote from their Oblivion review:

Taking a stroll through the forest you might encounter hunters chasing after deer; all done through Oblivion’s excellent AI.

Coincedentally their Oblivion review is one of the worst I've read (and I'v read a lot). I know that there is a tendancy to call a lot of game reviews nowadays 'PR pieces', but seriously their one looks like it was penned by Pete Hines himself. No information or analysis just 99% hype. The only complaints were that 1) the dungeons were a bit repetitive, and 2) that you will probably get lost at least once in the game. Yeah right, the only people who could get lost playing Oblivion are the blind, courtesy of Pizza Slice (tm) of course.

It also seemed to give town guards a special ESP ability that let them sense that you’ve stolen something (or murdered someone) and run from the other side of town to arrest you.

*Buzz* Wrong. The guards ability to detect crimes three kilometres away is due to a game setting, not their AI.

Oblivion gates

What the hell were the QA people doing when they were meant to be play testing these? The quest where you had to close 6 Oblivion gates was easily the most boring quest I have ever done, and not a single QA also said to Kurt Kuhlmannn "hey man could you also just add in a dialogue option that lets you order the count to give you the soldier. I mean you only get one soldier anyway, and if Martin dies then the world is dead, so wouldn't it make sense that you could just order them to give you the soldier?". What the hell are they paying them for?

 

[The Vault Dweller]

Some Fallout boxes claimed that enemies who got away could return with their buddies to take revenge. Also you can shoot to "wound, cripple or kill as you see fit", except that it doesn't really matter a lot. The Starcraft box said you can "hide ground forces behind trees", which in the Swedish translation had become "hide air forces in the treetops", but with the arrow still pointing at a tank roughly positioned behind a tree - I don't know if either is true.

Funny you mention Starcraft as well Per.

In many of the missions units were hidden behind map features like trees. In fact in all the multi-player games I played no one ever tried to use that trick since any player with a little experience knew they were there by seeing the little red dots on the mini-map.

Sincerely,
The Vault Dweller