Genre Orphans: Alpha Protocol

JRPGs didn't ruin anything, they have always been their own thing and they are considered a niche genre nowadays anyway. Also JRPGs still care a lot about stat building more than anything, so I don't see how modern "rpgs" dropping stats has anything to do with JRPGs.

The sins of modern RPGs were born out of the cinematic power fantasy craze that started plaguing games in the mid 2000s
 
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Dragon Quest is not cinematic. They are still turn based and focused on leveling up stats. Final Fantasy tho, that one is a cancerous tumor of a series, at least from the PS1 on.
 
Dragon Quest doesn't belong in the same sentence as Final Fantasy. One actually features exploration, the other one has one long hallway after another.
 
Cinematic or not, it certainly removed non-linear quest and replace it with linear plot.
beside, Final fantasy was started from copying Dragon quest.


I'm not saying all JRPGs are sucks.
but just saying problems of modern RPGs are born from them.
For example, one of the jrpg named The Legend of Heroes 3 is extreamly linear.
and what player doing is just moving character to right place while following linear way and watching story.
you don't even need to control in combat.

Dragon Quest is not cinematic. They are still turn based and focused on leveling up stats. Final Fantasy tho, that one is a cancerous tumor of a series, at least from the PS1 on.
Turn based and leveling up stat doesn't mean they are not cinematic.
Darkland is not turn based but it's decent WRPG.
and there is no level up in Thief but it is great dungeon RPG.

I know what you want to say.
both features were main part of Fallout but lost at 4 thanks to stupid beth
but these two are not main feature of RPG.
they are just a tool for RPG.
without stat and combat, Fallout 1 and 2 are still great RPG while failout 3 isn't
 
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JRPGs didn't ruin anything, they have always been their own thing and they are considered a niche genre nowadays anyway. Also JRPGs still care a lot about stat building more than anything, so I don't see how modern "rpgs" dropping stats has anything to do with JRPGs.

The sins of modern RPGs were born out of the cinematic power fantasy craze that started plaguing games in the mid 2000s

I think the big difference between WRPGs and JRPGs is that both were originally based on tabletop games that the people who made those games loved, but since Japan just doesn't have the tabletop industry and tradition that the west does, later day JRPGs were based on older JRPGs that the devs loved whereas later day WRPGs were based on tabletop experiences that the devs loved. So tabletop games aren't tied at all to specific mechanical conventions (name any "RPG mechanic" and I've probably played a Pen and Paper game without it), so the computer games inspired by them aren't necessarily either.

That's why games like Fo:NV and Alpha Protocol still make sense as RPGs to people who are into roleplaying games, even though their superficial trappings involve stuff like "aim the cursor to shoot" because they actually maintain that essential core of roleplaying, choice, and consequence.
 
Cinematic or not, it certainly removed non-linear quest and replace it with linear plot.
beside, Final fantasy was started from copying Dragon quest.


I'm not saying all JRPGs are sucks.
but just saying problems of modern RPGs are born from them.
For example, one of the jrpg named The Legend of Heroes 3 is extreamly linear.
and what player doing is just moving character to right place while following linear way and watching story.

Well, that is because Final Fantasy used to have exploration as well. They weren't quite as linear. Final Fantasy V was fairly open ended with two large worlds to explore in. Final Fantasy X was the one that started the downfall I believe.
 
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I actually think the problems with modern Rpgs is that they started aping cinematic shooters more than them taking some pages out of Jrpgs. If something JRPGs are very different from WRPGs nowadays, and there is a lot of different types of JRPGs. Dark Souls is a technically a JRPG.
 
I actually think the problems with modern Rpgs is that they started aping cinematic shooters more than them taking some pages out of Jrpgs. If something JRPGs are very different from WRPGs nowadays, and there is a lot of different types of JRPGs. Dark Souls is a technically a JRPG.
Yes, techniclally and literally, Darksoul is belong to JRPG.
it's map looks open worlded but actually linear.
and sometimes, Darksoul doesn't give enough information so players should use walkthough.
and it seems like using walkthough is kind of tradition of JRPG.

and yes, there are many kind of JRPGs.
but most of them are die out.
I haven't seen sequel of Live a Live or Romancing saga in these days..
it is too sad because they are few JRPGs that have great non-linear gameplay.

I think the big difference between WRPGs and JRPGs is that both were originally based on tabletop games that the people who made those games loved, but since Japan just doesn't have the tabletop industry and tradition that the west does, later day JRPGs were based on older JRPGs that the devs loved whereas later day WRPGs were based on tabletop experiences that the devs loved. So tabletop games aren't tied at all to specific mechanical conventions (name any "RPG mechanic" and I've probably played a Pen and Paper game without it), so the computer games inspired by them aren't necessarily either.

Although I'm not Japanese and I don't know much about them, it is not true that they don't have table top industry.
because many novel authors started their career from P&P game master.

From what I heard, simply, they didn't started from P&P while both Wizardry and Ultima started from P&P.

While Ultima was started from benchmarking P&P and used name of RPG be cause of that, they are seperated from P&P and create genre of quest RPG since Ultima 4.

but Dragon quest, which is the first JRPG, started from copying both Wizardry and Ultima 1~3.
but problem is, they didn't copied dungeon from Wizardry and Ultima 1~3 are so primitive that they don't have basis of quest which is started from Ultima 4.
so Dragon quest was born without dungeon of Wizardry or quest of Ultima but dumb downed skins of them.
that's how JRPG started: easy as pie so many non-gamers beat the game easily.
and that is the reason why JRPGs are sold well.

and for Alpha protocol, it's root is started from Deus ex.
and Deus ex was started from Thief, and Thief started from Ultima underworld..
for me, AP feel like Deus ex with stage select.

Well, that is because Final Fantasy used to have exploration as well. They weren't quite as linear. Final Fantasy V was fairly open ended with two large worlds to explore in. Final Fantasy X was the one that started the downfall I believe.
It's very confusing since FF used different numbering for Japanse version and USA version.
but yes, FF 5 and 6 has openworld part.
but that's all,open world didn't lead game to open plot or non-linear solution.
and for openworld, I heard Metal max series is great JRPG.
 
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It's very confusing since FF used different numbering for Japanse version and USA version.
but yes, FF 5 and 6 has openworld part.
but that's all,open world didn't lead game to open plot or non-linear solution.
and for openworld, I heard Metal max series is great JRPG.

True enough. Not very many jRPG's offer non linear gameplay.
 
@TorontRayne, In your rage against the machine, you missed the point completely. Knowing your target audience and understand what it cares about is one of the basics of game design. As you said 'Obsidian is consistently underrated by mainstream' hence my suggestion that they aren't delivering the goods for a mainstream game...

I guess you miss my point. People are fucking idiots. They like shit games. [...]

No I didn't, in fact I wrote similar rants in the past, but this doesn't effect the bottom line above.
 
First off I love Alpha Protocol, I also like to change Thorton's looks and skin tone dependent on where I am mission wise. Think tan and heavy beard in Saudi. I think the timed conversion mechanic is one of the best Ive seen in a voiced protagonist.

Secondly I feel that Dragon Quest/Warrior rocks and is and has evolved differently then Final Fantasy.

Lastly, some food for thought dealing with the history of RPG's and JRPG's
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sglKS-HfZMw
 
I'm not saying that Dragon quest or FF is bad.
but I just want to say they don't have core mechanism of RPG.
and they affected to WRPG and that caused corruption of modern RPG.
 
They are not idiots.
They just hate games.
While they hate games, they are lying to everyone including themselves to believe they like games.
This is the reason why interaction movies(A.K.A shitty games) are sold well.

I don't really get how liking interactive games means you hate gaming. If the argument is supposed to be "they're not real games", then what about people who play them alongside "real games"? I can't imagine saying to somebody that they're not a gamer just because they played Heavy Rain a couple times and liked it.
 
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I mean, they don't want challenging, thinking and finding in games.
but all of them are important part of game.
without them game is just interactive movie.
so I said they hate games.
 
Dragon Quest was heavily influenced by Wizardry and other dungeon crawlers like Ultima. JRPG's are typically put in their own sub-genre now due to the many differences they adapted compared to wRPG's, partly due to voice acting and modern graphics I think.
 
Alpha Protocal is freaking awesome. Thorton can kick Adam Jensen's cybernetic ass any day. Thanks for reminding me that I need to replay it!
 
Dragon Quest was heavily influenced by Wizardry and other dungeon crawlers like Ultima. JRPG's are typically put in their own sub-genre now due to the many differences they adapted compared to wRPG's, partly due to voice acting and modern graphics I think.
For voice acting, do you know that Ultima 6 was full voiced.
and how about Gothic, Wizardry8 or Jagged alliance?
Voice acting didn't changed anything.


And for modern graphic, many WRPGs' graphics are technically best at that time.
Think about Ultima underworld or TES 2 and compare them with King's field.
Modern graphic itself can't ruin RPG.

Come to think of it, there are some game that have both voice acting and best graphic at that time.
Some of them are System shock and Thief.
 
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Dragon Quest was heavily influenced by Wizardry and other dungeon crawlers like Ultima. JRPG's are typically put in their own sub-genre now due to the many differences they adapted compared to wRPG's, partly due to voice acting and modern graphics I think.
For voice acting, do you know that Ultima 6 was full voiced.
and how about Gothic, Wizardry8 or Jagged alliance?
Voice acting didn't changed anything.


And for modern graphic, many WRPGs' graphics are technically best at that time.
Think about Ultima underworld or TES 2 and compare them with King's field.
Modern graphic itself can't ruin RPG.

Come to think of it, there are some game that have both voice acting and best graphic at that time.
Some of them are System shock and Thief.

No, I'm saying voice acting changed jRPG's. Not wRPG's. Up until that point the dialog was not nearly as bad since you didn't have to hear it spoken aloud. Modern graphics changed the beautiful sprite based art to the anime inspired design that many do not like. I know I preferred the old style. It is generally agreed that jRPG's went downhill since.
 
Just watched video. I think he harps on the hacking mini-games too much. He says you're forced to deal with them but it's not true. There are tools you can use to bypass the hacking mini-games.

Alpha Protocol, by the way, is probably in my Top 10 RPGs list of all time. One of my most favoritest games ever. Is it janky? Sure. But the good in that game heavily outweighs the bad. The writing is so good, the choice and consequence is so good. I'll gladly suffer through some rough patches (mostly combat) in order to experience all the intricacy of the rest of the game.

Fun story. I went to buy the game at Fry's Electronics when the game came out. I went to the RPG section and couldn't find it. Eventually I did find it. In the Shooter section. I took the game box to a Fry's employee and asked why is this game in the shooter section? It says on the box "Espionage RPG". The employee was like "what is that game? Never heard of it. Let me see." So he looks over the box and says "wow, I'm gonna have to pick this up myself. Thanks for telling me about it." lol
 
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