Ghouls or Mutants? cont.

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Kilroy

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Maybe alot of radiation stops or alters the FEV2 process and turns you into a ghoul. Harold left his vault short after the war stopped, and thus recevied a lot of radiation. When (if) he was dipped, the mutation wasn't completed and heturned into a ghoul. But that doesn't explain why the citizens of Necropolis was turned to ghouls. This is a cool idea but I still think it was a lot of radiation.
Listen to this:
In the Fo2 Strategy guid it says: "Both ghouls and super-mutants were changed by man-one accidentally, one intentionally." and
"Ghouls were once humans, but they were caught outside of a protective vault when the bombs dropped. The same radiation that turned their flesh into parched leather has given them an incredibly long life span. Those closest to the blast zones are still so radiactive that they continue to glow. Those Glowing Ones, as they're called, have had some of their intellect burned away as well. Shunned by the people of the Wastelands, most ghouls have little to live for."
About Super-Mutants:
"The Master created Super-mutants after the bombs fell by using a specially designed virus (the FEV) to turn purestrain people into powerful warriors." What do you say about that Yamu? Ha-ha! I bested the (second)-best. I am the champion!Do I get a medal or something now. And Yamu please agree that this is correct so people don't question me.
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"Call me a vagabond, and I'll smile. Call me a thief, and I'll laugh. Call me a liar, and I feed you your liver."
 
[font size=1" color="#FF0000]LAST EDITED ON Jan-11-01 AT 09:36AM (GMT)[p]Seems plausible, on the surface. But then, it doesn't really explain why Harold was in a Vault when the bombs dropped and came out fine. And, after awhile out on the wastes, he still hadn't mutated, until he had a close encounter at the Vats...

And, what about the one in the basement of the followers, whose mutation into a ghoul was definitely due to FEV, or at least not directly due to radiation?

Sorry, but I can't bring myself to concede this one, yet.

(Deflects Kilroy's argument with a shiny shield emblazoned with the likeness of the Fallout Boy's head)

So, who's next? :-)

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What iff Harold were trown out off the vats and he were lying to close to a radioactive area?
A blast site perhaps.

<And, what about the one in the basement of the followers, whose mutation into a ghoul was definitely due to FEV, or at least not directly due to radiation?>

Let me ask u? Do you know 100% soure that he mutated as a reusult off FEV or are you just pulling konklusions out off thin air and making them fackts?
Because iff that is that u know this from fallout then tell me where in Fallout so i can check it out iff not I will not belive you.

Roshambo where are you? Please get here and tell us The fackts.
 
>What iff Harold were trown out
>off the vats and he
>were lying to close to
>a radioactive area?
>A blast site perhaps.

If that was true, then why don't you mutate into a Ghoul at the glow? I've had characters that spent days on end in the glow, without power armor, and I didn't take any anti-rad until I got back topside. Plus, why would there be a blast site *that* close to a military base? It was a war. If the enemies of the U.S. had known enough about the military base's location,, they would have blown it to oblivion, like they did with the glow. And they would've been *sure*.

>Let me ask u? Do you
>know 100% soure that
>he mutated as a reusult
>off FEV or are you
>just pulling konklusions out off
>thin air and making them
>fackts?

I'm just calling it as I see it. I know what you read in the strategy guide, but I've read that guide, too. It is full of erroneous info. Plus, it makes sense that they would say in the guide that the ghouls were created by radiation, as that is the *official* story. What is being discussed in the "Ghouls or Mutants" thread is theory as to what might be what truly happened.

http://fallout.gamestats.com/forum/User_files/3a5b0768718cafc4.jpg
 
[font size=1" color="#FF0000]LAST EDITED ON Jan-12-01 AT 05:11PM (GMT)[p]>>Roshambo where are you? Please get here and tell us The fackts.<<

I'm wondering what the Mods think of these threads.

The world of Fallout is stuffed full stories. Every race, every town and every creature has their own life story. Now we are talking about the ever-present force in the Wasteland that nobody seems to pay too much attention to, FEV. The FEV virus created the Master and the Mutants. According to my theory (and the Demigod who supports it) the ghouls were created from some form of FEV as well.

We take facts from the game and use them to back our theories, therefore arriving at conclusions. If you think we are wrong, find some indisputable evidence in the game. We will concide, but you must prove us wrong.

-True Raven
 
>If that was true, then why
>don't you mutate into a
>Ghoul at the glow? I've
>had characters that spent days
>on end in the glow,
>without power armor, and I
>didn't take any anti-rad until
>I got back topside.
How did you survive without anti-rads like Rad-X? Or do you mean Radaway? Of course you don't mutate in the Glow you're IMUNE to radiation for a while with Rad-X! (And they didn't make it possible for you to turn into a ghoul in FO)

>Plus,why would there be a
>blast site *that* close to
>a military base? It was
>a war. If the enemies
>of the U.S. had known
>enough about the military base's
>location,, they would have blown
>it to oblivion, like they
>did with the glow. And
>they would've been *sure*.
Maybe they missed. Or do the US know the location of *every* military base in the whole world? If so find out where F16 is (by talking to someone in your local army/vigilante). A clue it's in Sweden.


>I'm just calling it as I
>see it. I know what
>you read in the strategy
>guide, but I've read that
>guide, too. It is full
>of erroneous info. Plus, it
>makes sense that they would
>say in the guide that
>the ghouls were created by
>radiation, as that is the
>*official* story. What is being
>discussed in the "Ghouls or
>Mutants" thread is theory as
>to what might be what
>truly happened.
Uhh, if we don't go after the official story then what are we going after? Some shit you pulled out of your ass? The official story is the true one because whoever wrote it wrote the fallout universe. Do you question that too? "No there never was a nuclear war. It was just propaganda to excuse the use of FEV. What realy happened was that the prez farted and that caused the world to end"
The official story IS the true story. Unless they change it in FOT or FO3 I say that is what happened to ghouls and muties.

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"Call me a vagabond, and I'll smile. Call me a thief, and I'll laugh. Call me a liar, and I feed you your liver."
 
I just relized some thing. Harlod is called "Harlod the mutant" not "Harlod the ghoul". Does he call him self "Harlod the mutant" or do others? And are their any ghouls in the game who call them selves ghouls? I am not challengeing any thing just throwing in little things I notice. :7
 
Way off...

>>Uhh, if we don't go after the official story then what are we going after? Some shit you pulled out of your ass? The official story is the true one because whoever wrote it wrote the fallout universe. Do you question that too? "No there never was a nuclear war. It was just propaganda to excuse the use of FEV. What realy happened was that the prez farted and that caused the world to end"<<

First of all the person who wrote the strategy guide did not create Fallout. Therefore you can't quote him unless you have evidence from the actual game that backs up what he says. He dosen't know the "offical story" so how can he tell you what it is?

This theory wasn't "pulled out of our ass", we have put together an alternate theory to what the people at BIS lead us to believe. When you were little, mommy and daddy lead you to believe that the Easter Bunny and Santa Claus were real. Are they? No, of course not. What we think happened was that BIS lead us to believe that Ghouls were created by radiation. Is there any hard evidence in the game to support that? No. They just said and did things (like making Ghouls immune to radiation) that forced us to believe that Ghouls were created by radiation. We have evidence that they have placed in the game that lead us to believe otherwise. Find evidence in the game to support you and we will.

>>The official story IS the true story. Unless they change it in FOT or FO3 I say that is what happened to ghouls and muties.<<

So because you say so it is? That isn't going to make anybody believe you. Show me some evidence and I'll back you up. Until then you remain unproven.

-True Raven
 
>>I just relized some thing. Harlod is called "Harlod the mutant" not "Harlod the ghoul". Does he call him self "Harlod the mutant" or do others? And are their any ghouls in the game who call them selves ghouls? I am not challengeing any thing just throwing in little things I notice. <<

Little clues like this make me believe more and more that my theory is correct.

-True Raven
 
RE: Way off...

>First of all the person who
>wrote the strategy guide did
>not create Fallout.
Yes he did.

>Therefore you
>can't quote him unless you
>have evidence from the actual
>game that backs up what
>he says. He dosen't know
>the "offical story" so how
>can he tell you what
>it is?
Don't you think that the person who wrote the Strategy Guide wouldn't know the story behind FO? Excuse me but. HOW STUPID ARE YOU?!! Matthew J. Norton wrote the guide and was a leaddesigner on the Fallout 2 team. And Harold says that Ghouls need radiation to survive. That's why they live next to the poseidon plant.

>This theory wasn't "pulled out of
>our ass", we have put
>together an alternate theory to
>what the people at BIS
>lead us to believe.
Call me naive but why would they be lying?

>When
>you were little, mommy and
>daddy lead you to believe
>that the Easter Bunny and
>Santa Claus were real. Are
>they?
>No, of course not.
What?! You didn't beleive in Santa when you were a kid. Poor you. Was your family Jehova's witnesses or something?

>What we think happened was
>that BIS lead us to
>believe that Ghouls were created
>by radiation. Is there any
>hard evidence in the game
>to support that?
Yes
>Find evidence
>in the game to support
>you and we will.
I don't need to. See above.

>>>The official story IS the true story. Unless they change it in FOT or FO3 I say that is what happened to ghouls and muties.<<
>
>So because you say so it
>is?
No because the Fallout team at Black Isle said so. And since they're the ST's of the Fallout RPG they decide what's right and wrong in the fallout universe.

>That isn't going to
>make anybody believe you. Show
>me some evidence and I'll
>back you up. Until then
>you remain unproven.
I think I just did.
And Ferago: Other people call Harold "the mutant" becuase they don't know or have a name for what he is. The ghouls in Gecko say that the VC guards "shoots ghouls at sight" to quote Harold.
And to all that have said that Harold was in a vault during the war: Do you think that even a vault would take a direct hit from a nuke? And to those who now will say: "Why would they bomb a vault?" I say because maybe some bigshot generals or something was in that vault, maybe it had some vital information about China's defences. Who knows?

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"Call me a vagabond, and I'll smile. Call me a thief, and I'll laugh. Call me a liar, and I feed you your liver."
 
RE: Way off...

[font size=1" color="#FF0000]LAST EDITED ON Jan-13-01 AT 05:05AM (GMT)[p]>>>First of all the person who
>wrote the strategy guide did
>not create Fallout.
Yes he did.

>Therefore you
>can't quote him unless you
>have evidence from the actual
>game that backs up what
>he says. He dosen't know
>the "offical story" so how
>can he tell you what
>it is?
Don't you think that the person who wrote the Strategy Guide wouldn't know the story behind FO? Excuse me but. HOW STUPID ARE YOU?!! Matthew J. Norton wrote the guide and was a leaddesigner on the Fallout 2 team. And Harold says that Ghouls need radiation to survive. That's why they live next to the poseidon plant.<<

Question: Do you ever check facts or do you constantly pull everything you write out of your ass. Matthew J. Norton helped design Fallout 2. He had nothing at all to do with Fallout 1. Therefore he didn't create the ghouls or Harold, he didn't think up FEV or the Master or the mutants. He wasn't around when they dreamed up the Vats or the Vaults. In short, he didn't create Fallout, so don't say he did.

Tell me, exactly when did Harold say this? I've played through Fallout 1 and 2 numerous times and he has never said that to me and I always carry a high Speech Skill.

>>>This theory wasn't "pulled out of
>our ass", we have put
>together an alternate theory to
>what the people at BIS
>lead us to believe.
Call me naive but why would they be lying?<<

I'm finding it more difficult with each post not to talk down to you but you are leaving me with few other choices. Remember the time before you beat Fallout 2 (you did beat Fallout 2 right?) you thought, just like everyone else, that the Vaults were designed for the safety of people against radiation. The President of the US told you different. The Vaults were actually "experiments". For two games BIS had all of us going. Then they pulled a fast one on us. If they've done it once, isn't it safe to believe that they could do it again?

>>>When
>you were little, mommy and
>daddy lead you to believe
>that the Easter Bunny and
>Santa Claus were real. Are
>they?
>No, of course not.
What?! You didn't beleive in Santa when you were a kid. Poor you. Was your family Jehova's witnesses or something?<<

Maybe you should spend more time trying to come up with a good argument and less time on insults that make your pitiful points look that much worse. You have much to learn young one. Like grammar...

>>>What we think happened was
>that BIS lead us to
>believe that Ghouls were created
>by radiation. Is there any
>hard evidence in the game
>to support that?
Yes
>Find evidence
>in the game to support
>you and we will.
I don't need to. See above.

>>>The official story IS the true story. Unless they change it in FOT or FO3 I say that is what happened to ghouls and muties.<<
>
>So because you say so it
>is?
No because the Fallout team at Black Isle said so. And since they're the ST's of the Fallout RPG they decide what's right and wrong in the fallout universe.

>That isn't going to
>make anybody believe you. Show
>me some evidence and I'll
>back you up. Until then
>you remain unproven.
I think I just did.<<

BIS never said that. You are implying that based on your own warped ideas of what happened. We have been lead to believe this but it has never been proven. Prove it. Come up with your own theory about how ghouls came about other than "Radiation did it". Pull some facts out of the game (and not out of a Strategy Guide or your ass) and back yourself up. I've written my theory more than once in different posts. Prove us wrong because you are still unproven.

-True Raven
 
I've been thinking about my own theory that extends the others. Yamu said somewhere that your skin peels when you're dipped. Yes it does. He said is that a change to a mutant or a ghoul. Well here's my theory.

Yamu said that the flesh peels so that muscles can grow underneath. This may take some time. What if a human were dipped then pulled out after a few seconds. Their skin may have peeled but the muscle growth would not have increased. They would have received a smaller dosage. This is what would probably (i think) happen if a virus were airborne. Harold wasn't dipped but could have been exposed to a small amount of FEV. his skin peeled but there wasn't enough to make his much less grow. This would also be possible with the ghoul in the followers basement. Now comes the ultimate part of my theory. There might not be only one way to make a ghoul. I think that both radiation and a slight amount of FEV could create a ghoul. Or a different creature that falls into the same class only because of physical appearance. It is possible however that the FEV was released in an airborne form in the Necropolis vault.

another theory is that FEV1 mutated humans into ghouls but the second version FEV2 mutated them into super mutants. This one doesn't explain how Harold or the followers ghoul mutated though. However it does explain how the necropolis ghouls mutated because the mater wouldn't have had the chance to change that version of the FEV. This isn't my personal theory exactly however.

I believe that if you dissected a ghoul created by radiation and say Harold and examined the insides etc. you would find a different creature inside but the same outside. The first theory is my own in a way. Here goes the truly ultimate part. The Master could be a ghoul. it is possible that the first FEV worked slower than the second ie. you had to be in the FEV for longer for it to work. Which fits in with the rest of the theory. The master was under for longer and so the process worked to full on him. Him being complete the super mutants being 2/3 complete ghouls being 1/3. When the master experimented on the FEV it is possible he speeded up the process.

In conclusion, many things make a creature classified as a ghoul. Average exposure to FEV1, brief exposure to FEV2, contact to an airborne FEV2 virus, or radiation.

Please people don’t shoot this down in a nasty way, if anyone has any evidence for or against this then please post it. I personally couldn’t find any either way except for the fact that both the followers ghoul and Harold may have hand exposure to an airborne virus but that isn’t much evidence. I also added in the radiation part because it seems possible. Plz reply



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RE: Way off...

OK, you're right, Norton designed FO2, but don't you think that he talked to the people that did FO1? When Harold gives you the quest to fix the power plant he says something like:
"Vault City want's to shut us down. We need that plant to survive." And ghouls in the plant say stuff like that too.
And since I haven't seen any "evidence" to proove your theory I say that mine is the more logical one and thus the true one. If of course you don't want to quote Sherlock Holmes (another made- up character) by saying: "If you eliminate all the logical answer the ilogical must be true".
Since I know that I am right I won't bother to answer anymore of those silly posts anymore. Now you think "Yes! He gave up!" but as every other spritualy enlighted person in the history, Jesus, Shakespeare, Buddha and Gandhi, I don't care what people think or say about me since they don't have the balls to say it to me in person. And what's wrong with my grammar? And if there are a few misspelings and typos it's maybe beacuse I'm 14 yrs old, have only learned english for six years and live in Sweden compåared to you who is probably older and live in the States. So I don't see that as an insult. At least I come up with my own insults instead of copying someone elses.

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"Call me a vagabond, and I'll smile. Call me a thief, and I'll laugh. Call me a liar, and I feed you your liver."
 
RE: Way off...

>The official story IS the true story. Unless they change it in FOT or FO3 I say that is what happened to ghouls and muties.<<

Excuse me. I shouldn't have said *official*. What I meant was *common*. That is the common knowledge of what happened to the Ghouls. Until about six centuries ago, it was *common knowledge* that the world was flat.

>No because the Fallout team at
>Black Isle said so. And
>since they're the ST's of
>the Fallout RPG they decide
>what's right and wrong in
>the fallout universe.

It's not so much what the Fallout team said as what they did. They obviously included enough evidence toward our point for us to craft a multi-faceted theory. Now, are you going to tell me that it's all there on accident? All of our (True Raven's and mine) theories are based on information that BIS/Interplay put in the game. That's what this board is for: THEORY

>And to all that have said
>that Harold was in a
>vault during the war: Do
>you think that even a
>vault would take a direct
>hit from a nuke?

No, I don't think that a vault could survive a direct hit from a nuke. That's why most of them are located under, literally, mountains of stone. V12 in Bakersfield is really pretty close to the surface. If it had been directly hit by a nuke, there would probably be... not much left. Plus, do I really need to point out that if V12 had been *directly* hit, there would be nothing left of Necropolis?

>to those who now will
>say: "Why would they bomb
>a vault?" I say because
>maybe some bigshot generals
>or something was in that
>vault, maybe it had some
>vital information about China's defences.
>Who knows?

Where are you getting *that* information? You're wouldn't just *pull it out of your ass*, would you?

(Damn, that felt good...)

See, your theorizing here? It's a lot like Mine and TR's theorizing elsewhere. You took facts that you already knew, and you built on them using logic. The only difference is, we are developing theory for our furtherance of knowledge. You are doing so to prove us wrong? Aside from the motives, how is it any different?

http://fallout.gamestats.com/forum/User_files/3a5b0768718cafc4.jpg
 
The miners in the militeary base in fallout2 where exposed to smaller amounts off airborne virus and they did not los any skin but it got thiker and they got stronger and more agile.
Look in the holodisk in the crate right next to the magichian.

Else i stik to the offcial story into something different happens.
It could be planted on the fallout3 board as a possibole quest.
I think that the peapole in BIS that made the story, did not think the off the vaults as an "experiment."
They made it upp, probably so they could justify the storming off the vaults(I don't know this for sure).
 
My final words in this.

[font size=1" color="#FF0000]LAST EDITED ON Jan-14-01 AT 11:42AM (GMT)[p]OK now I'm not replying to any of your posts, I just want to thank Loxley for supporting me. And since I haven't heard any reasons why my grammar is incorrect I asume it isn't.
"Bye everybody!
Bye doctor Nick!" from the Simpsons

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"Call me a vagabond, and I'll smile. Call me a thief, and I'll laugh. Call me a liar, and I feed you your liver."
 
So when you could help yourself?

>>OK, you're right, Norton designed FO2, but don't you think that he talked to the people that did FO1? <<

He might have, but various members of the Fallout Team (most notibly Tim Cain) had already jumped ship when Fallout 2 was started.

>>When Harold gives you the quest to fix the power plant he says something like:
"Vault City want's to shut us down. We need that plant to survive." And ghouls in the plant say stuff like that too.<<

Is it possible that Ghouls need that plant to survive, not because they need the radiation but because they need the energy? Remember that the whole point of the quest to find the Hy-Mag was because Harold wanted to the plant to stop leaking radiation.

>>And since I haven't seen any "evidence" to proove your theory I say that mine is the more logical one and thus the true one. If of course you don't want to quote Sherlock Holmes (another made- up character) by saying: "If you eliminate all the logical answer the ilogical must be true".<<

*sigh* Yamu we need to put all this up on a webpage so we won't have to repeat ourselves over and over and over...

1. The "first vault dweller" whom you meet in the Basement of the Followers. He knows he became a ghoul because he was dipped by the Master.

2. The fact that at the Glow, which was still completely radiated after a direct hit from a Nuclear Bomb, you do not turn into a Ghoul no matter how long you stay in there, without any type of anti-rad.

3. The End Game sequance that shows you getting dipped and then having Ghoulish features on your arm when you begin to emerge.

4. Harold, who stumbled around the Rad-ridden Wastes for months and never became a ghoul until after he conviently came in contact with an ex-Military Base full of the stuff.

etc. etc. etc.

You get the point, these points have been repeated ad nausem and they still hold up against all arguments thus far.

>>Since I know that I am right I won't bother to answer anymore of those silly posts anymore. Now you think "Yes! He gave up!" but as every other spritualy enlighted person in the history, Jesus, Shakespeare, Buddha and Gandhi, I don't care what people think or say about me since they don't have the balls to say it to me in person.<<

You supply a plane ticket to Sweden and I'll say everything I've said thus far, if not a bit more. You really think you're good enough to be compaired to Shakespeare, Buddha, Gandhi, and Jesus? I'm sure Gandhi told his fellow Indians all the time they had no balls right?

>>And what's wrong with my grammar? And if there are a few misspelings and typos it's maybe beacuse I'm 14 yrs old, have only learned english for six years and live in Sweden compåared to you who is probably older and live in the States. So I don't see that as an insult. At least I come up with my own insults instead of copying someone elses.<<

Becuase you are young you probably don't understand this yet, so I'll try and educate you as best I can. When you write something well, people tend to take your ideas better. When you write something poorly, it becomes much more difficult to take someone seriously. Compair what you wrote above to this:

>>And to all that have said that Harold was in a vault during the war: Do you think that even a vault would take a direct hit from a nuke? And to those who now will say: "Why would they bomb a vault?" I say because maybe some bigshot generals or something was in that vault, maybe it had some vital information about China's defences. Who knows?<<

See how they differ? The second one is very difficult to read and understand. After one or two tries, a reader will give up and move on. I'm not critizing you because you live in another country or because Engilsh isn't your first language, all I'm saying is that when you put some extra effort into editing your posts you get your point across better and more people tend to agree with you.

It's too bad you have chosen to stop arguing against our theory. Maybe Loxley would like to take up the fight for his fallen leader...

-True Raven
 
RE: So when you could help yourself?

[font size=1" color="#FF0000]LAST EDITED ON Jan-15-01 AT 07:50AM (GMT)[p]<1. The "first vault dweller" whom you meet in the Basement of the Followers. He knows he became a ghoul because he was dipped by the Master.>

No he Don't.
He was knocked out during the process so he did not know what happened to him.

<2. The fact that at the Glow, which was still completely radiated after a direct hit from a Nuclear Bomb, you do not turn into a Ghoul no matter how long you stay in there, without any type of anti-rad.>

The Glow was not hit by a nuke.
You do not turn into a ghoul because the game does not alow you to.
Else we could say this: You Die because u get to much radiation in to short time. (Your choise)


>4. Harold, who stumbled around the Rad-ridden Wastes for months and never became a ghoul until after he conviently came in contact with an ex-Military Base full of the stuff.>
U do not know what happened with Harold he said it himself.

--------------------------------------
"How did you mutate?"
"I don't know, guess it must have been some radiation in there."
------------------------------------------------------
Harold did not know why he mutated nor did the vault dweller i the basement.
ect ect.....
Give me all your arguments an your whole teory.
 
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