Give us money or we will nuke the american economy!

Damn it, where is welsh when we need him?

I can agree to the bail out if - all execs from the big 3 cut all their salary down to 1 USD a year for 10 years.

The union adopts a meritocracy system of promotion instead of seniority.

And all 3 companies contribute to federal health fund every year.
 
No, universal healthcare doesn't just mean money comes from taxes instead. It means a single payer system with actually LESS overhead. That's why healthcare systems with universal healthcare cost significantly less per person than the US system does. It also removes the cycle of increased costs resulting from non-payers. Healthcare costs in the USA are as high as they are largely due to non-payers. When someone doesn't pay for the treatment they've received, the provider is forced to increase everyone else's costs in order to pay for it. Increased costs results in more people being unable to pay, which in turn leads to further increased costs. This effect has been seen for decades now and the result is what we currently have; unjustifiably huge prices for healthcare that in other nations is dirt cheap.
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cheep isnt the best. whom do you think funds the british pharmaceutical companies and medical development? it certainly isnt britian(especially considering that they are having issues with funding in recent years), its the us. they may actually develop the newest and latest drugs and treatments but the money comes from the us. without a capitalistic healthcare system there isnt enough money in it to support the titanic level of research and development that is going on....

further then that socialist healthcare creates a lot of problems. the average canadian doctor for example makes about the same as if he never got an education and decided to work in an autoplant, however he has a TITANIC debt that he owes because of that education. its one of the reasons why canadian doctors are "fleeing" to the us. in truth the only socialist healthcare system ive heard of that worked well was germany's(being pretty much the best in europe). every other one has incredible amounts of problems ranging from overcrowding to lack of modern equipment, it just isnt a good option normally.

If you want to know one reason Europe and Asia can build cars cheaper, it is the retarded health system in the USA. Universal healthcare is absolutely necessary. The USA is the only modern country in the entire world without it. The only one.
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a long time ago we were the only "modern nation" that had done away with "noble blood". hrm, turned out to be a good idea. universal healthcare, welfare, all of the socialist piss is full of failures. notice that it has only been adopted by nations used to a incredibly rigid and strong central government and it was adopted durring era of massive economic trouble(most plans like those were kick started by the great depression). those nations were used to solving complex problems with stupid direct govenrmental control so when the great depression slammed into them they tried just that.

notice that the us(before the global market crash) was the ONLY growing western nation? i know im going to piss off quite a few people on these forums by saying this but all those european socialist holes were dieing and that fact is now expedited by the next global recession if not depression. the new pope himself gave speaches about it, telling them to re afirm to classical values of work and duty, to actually have a family with children again. even though gdp was slowly growing in europe my eyes honed by my long study of history saw the rot growing there. socialism isnt the answer and its been destroying europe for 50 years.....
 
ceacar99 said:
socialism isnt the answer and its been destroying europe for 50 years.....
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So europe is socialist ? JC, learn your terminology please. Europe is capitalist, albeit one with regulations. Public healthcare is not socialist. State ownership OF ALL MEANS of production is socialism.
And europe is being destroyed by socialism ? I dont see how that is possible, because we arent socialist to begin with.

and the claim of growing economy is not absolutely true as your national debt was growing constantly. It's still is growing.

Finland has shortened national debt constantly, 2 billion this year,we had alot of it, as we had depresssion in the early 90's as the soviets fell and we lost trade deals that were important. Also our banks gave high risk loans prior to that.
 
Yup, the little 3 are going to die off. Personally, I think that it's a good thing because they all need to restructure to be profitable again. With the economy already in the slums, there isn't much more they can do to make it worse.


Also: GM didn't say that you needed a Ram with a Viper engine; that was Chrysler.
 
ceacar99 said:
cheep isnt the best. whom do you think funds the british pharmaceutical companies and medical development? it certainly isnt britian(especially considering that they are having issues with funding in recent years), its the us. they may actually develop the newest and latest drugs and treatments but the money comes from the us. without a capitalistic healthcare system there isnt enough money in it to support the titanic level of research and development that is going on....

further then that socialist healthcare creates a lot of problems. the average canadian doctor for example makes about the same as if he never got an education and decided to work in an autoplant, however he has a TITANIC debt that he owes because of that education. its one of the reasons why canadian doctors are "fleeing" to the us. in truth the only socialist healthcare system ive heard of that worked well was germany's(being pretty much the best in europe). every other one has incredible amounts of problems ranging from overcrowding to lack of modern equipment, it just isnt a good option normally.
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Socialistic systems worked for at least the last 50 years in [western] Germany though and it still has one of the best healt care systems (if the politicans will not fuck that up soon ...)
 
You got to be kidding. Our healthcare system has been reformed to hell and back, just like our welfare system.

And that wasn't for socialist reasons, but out of purely capitalistic concerns.

Also please buy a dictionary and read up what Socialism is. Leftism isn't the same thing as Socialism.
 
If Germany has not some form of socialism in its structure then I dont know what to call it else. That we are not talking about the meaning in the communistic sense is clear ... it is a very broad term that can and has been aplied to "democratic" institutions as well. Not communistic/left parties exclusively.

Socialism refers to a broad set of economic theories of social organization advocating common market paradigms often based in state, internationally merged corporations and collective ownership which addresses the administration of the means of production and distribution of goods, and an egalitarian society characterized by equal opportunities for all individuals through theories of egalitarian distribution and regulation of wealth (...)
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Die neu formierte SPD unter *Kurt Schumacher übernahm den Begriff [Demokratischer Sozialismus] nach 1945 als gleichbedeutend mit „Soziale Demokratie“.(...)

The new formed SPD under (among) *Kurt Schuman carried over the concept [democratic socialism] after 1945 as synonym for "social democracy"
*Dr. Kurt Schumacher (13 October 1895 - 20 August 1952), was the leader of the Social Democratic Party of Germany from 1945 to 1952.


A public (compulsory) health insurance fund is part of socialistic democracies like Germany. And it worked quite well not long since now. And if they do decide to reform it in inteligent manners it can as well continue to be a effective system. By just comparing our health care system to the US it is for the usual person in Germany still not only much cheaper but offers as well a biger area of options in health care. If this will remain to be that way in the future is another question but also covers a much larger array of issues. Sadly at the moment in Germany in many areas people are in charge that are against the ideas of social structures as they do not like the idea "to pay for others". To have a social system like it is at the moment still present in Germany you need a profound sympathy and understanding among the population and the politicians (in geneal) toward it compareable to a common sense regarding democracy and if those is dissapearing and people in large mass do not care anymore about it the system can not carry it self anymore. A democracy might as well eventualy stop to exist at the moment peole dont care anymore about the democractic principles (like the basic rights for example).
 
Well, before this gets derailed into another generic "Socialism vs. Capitalism" or National Healthcare debate, lets go back to the original issue: The Auto Company bailouts.

Personally, I'm completely opposed to giving them any money. I'm opposed to the bailout in general, primarily because we are just printing and borrowing money to give to failing institutions. It's going to be awful.

What gets me even more angry though, is how Bush is now looking at using the bailout money for the banks to bail out the auto industry after our Congress, through the democratic process defined in our Constitution, chose to deny the funds. It's becoming increasingly autocratic, and this is exactly what everyone was warning about when they handed over 850 billion to one man in the first place. I can't believe it.

I'm not going to riot because the economy tanks or I lose my job. Them's the breaks. But I am very, very angry that our government has shit on most of it's checks and balances lately and is acting without restraint. This is not good. Not good at all.
 
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