Greetings, Introductions, and Worries...

Wastrel

First time out of the vault
Hello everyone, yet another Fallout fan pitching my tent in this particular forum. Just wanted to introduce myself, say hi and all that, but more to the point I wanted to ask all of your opinions about something that has been worrying me for a few months now the more and more I read about it.

I figure that since a good deal of you at least are/were seduced by the idea of the "fresh start" that nuclear war gives, as illustrated by the Fallout games. With that in mind, I figure you're as good a bunch as any to get feedback about some stuff I've been reading about energy and peak oil.

Now, I'm sure you folks have heard about this already, and have read about it as something we have to worry about, but not for quite a while... as illustrated by the Fallout games, in fact. But a lot I've read indicates it could happen a lot sooner than expected, and could have much worse impacts than expected.

It essentially comes down to three points: Oil (energy) availiability, food, and human psychology.

In the last 150 years, from when we first began to burn coal, energy has been wildly abundant. Fossil fuels are incredibly energy-dense, and easily transported. When an oil pocket is tapped, the pressure makes extraction very easy, which leads to very cheap oil, which in turn makes everything in our modern society run smoothly. Cars have made America become a land of suburbs. Airplanes make transport very easy, and to power anything our basic instinct is to just "plug it in." However, the undeniable bell-curve of oil production is misleading. Hubbert predicted it would peak around now, and he's been very accurate before. Of course, even if it does peak now, that means we'll have as much oil next year as last year, right? Wrong.

During those three years, demand for oil will spike. As there is less oil, more people will pay more for it, and costs will increase dramatically. They already are, if you look at crude prices. +200% increase over one year. As population increases, as China industrializes, any shortfall will be magnified tenfold. 5% production shortfalls in the 70's and in California during the 90's sent prices up by 400%. In short: when oil production slows down, it will slow down FASTER than the bell curve implies. Also, once we have 50% of the oil out of the ground, the rest will become MUCH harder to extract. Once it takes a barrel of oil energy to extract a barrel of oil, no oil company will be able to run. Alternative enrgy is based on oil as well. It takes oil to extract metals to build windmills and solar panels. It takes oil to build nuclear power plants and mine uranium.

The second crucial point is the food issue. As population has spiked, food production has increased concurrently. But this has been with MASSIVE energy inputs. 10 calories of enrgy are put into every calories we eat. That is possible only though oil. If oil costs spike more, farmers will not be able to feed the people, and people will not be able to drive to the farms. Suburbia will not be able to survive high energy prices, and many farms will not be able to further irrigate themselves. In short, we'll all go hungry as we'll be unable to convert oil calories into food calories to feed ourselves.

Lastly, human psychology. People deny that oil will run out. Govermnet statistics say that it will hiccup a little now but then increase production, forever. That is not true. Furthermore, developing countries, particularly China, will not liek being told by the market that "whoops, you got into the game to late, the party's over." I've talked to Chinese people, in China. They feel like they have the right to as much energy as we have. It is dangerous to think how far governments might go keep enough oil to even supply their jets, tanks, and ships. Without those, governments lose their teeth, and you cannot fly a F18 on a battery. People will fight to retain an unrealistic lifestyle. VP Cheney said our way of life is non negotiable, and thinking like that could lead to mass deception and maybe even war.



So in short, that's why I'm worried, and that's why I've been thinking about Fallout. Try going to www.lifeaftertheoilcrash.net if you're further interested.


See you in the wastelands,

the minstrel of the wastes, The Wastrel
 
Very interesting read, but I'm sure that it's pretty similar to the thoughts of many people thathave really thought deeply on this subject.

The second crucial point is the food issue.As population has spiked, food production has increased concurrently. But this has been with MASSIVE energy inputs

I've done some extensive demographic studies and geography and the the recent trends in population increases aren't going to be the trend for the next 50years. In fact, the world population will increase in the next few decades, but as more countries become more economically stable (ie more rich), they will have more education in the field of contraceptives and the like, to try and curb the expense of family.

You could see this decreasing population rate in developed countries, as here in Australia, our population is increasing, yes, but at a very slow rate, that the government is enticing new families with benefits for more kids. Yet in developing countries where education is little, they don't have wide access and knowledge of contraceptives, and there populations will spike very soon, when the land can no longer support them.

And yes we will run out of food, the world can not support the current population forever on current stocks, as the land is slowly becoming degraded and eroded, so that the arable land is becoming less and less by the year.

Well all in all we are screwed when the oil does run out, everything requires oil, even in the most extreme ways, ie petrol to fund a colony of hippies that believe keeping trees will save the world, but they are willing to drive their 1969 Combi running on Leaded petrol.

So in short, that's why I'm worried

Don't worry, I'm sure that by the time the world runs out of oil, we will have vaults to live in...

:roll:
 
People that don't realise that the current thundering doom of the earth is caused more by the economic growth demands of our capitalist society than by any increase in birthrates are funny.
 
The second crucial point is the food issue.As population has spiked, food production has increased concurrently. But this has been with MASSIVE energy inputs

At the moment there's already a massive over production of food. One of the main reasons you see those poor kids in africa on the world vision ads is because they're mostly growing cash crops for western countries.

Anyway, GM foods should probably lessen the burden energy wise.
 
Not ANOTHER peak oil thread!

"Wow, you guys sure are stupid for not realizing how fucked we are, just like last time, and the time before that!"
 
I thought I had convinced you there was an impending crisis some months ago, calcie? What's up with sudden outbursts of optimism?
 
I think that oil will get expensive, and that we'll use other, previously more expensive forms of energy.
 
Dibs on solar powered armored battle van.

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claculon000 said:
I think that oil will get expensive, and that we'll use other, previously more expensive forms of energy.

Like this or this? If those companies aren't full of shit than those "previously more expensive forms of energy" are about to see a ten-fold slash in price.

Not that I'm holding my breath, just crossing my fingers;)
 
calculon000 said:
I think that oil will get expensive, and that we'll use other, previously more expensive forms of energy.
Which ones? There are presently no energy sources that can sate more than a fraction of our energy needs.

Unless you believe in cold fusion and other fairy tales.
 
Kharn said:
People that don't realise that the current thundering doom of the earth is caused more by the economic growth demands of our capitalist society than by any increase in birthrates are funny.

Damn you, capitalists, I've always been saying your form of government is not appropriate for future life. Who needs money when you've got nothing to purchase with it?

Now find yourselves a red banner with a hammer and a sickle and replace your national flags with it.

Communism is the only way of survival on this long ago doomed planet. It's merely an unavoidable measure. You'll *have* to take it.
 
I think most people here vastly underestimate the versatility of the human mind. Whenever there has been a major disaster or crisis people have found a way. I have faith in people , and ironically, in their own interest of self-preservation. We can do as much to kill one another as we can to save each other.
 
You just said "freak". Normally, in the noun form, the word "freak" is highly acceptable. However, when used in the verb form as a substitute for the expletive "fuck", it makes you look really lame.
 
I'm posting in a 10-year-old video game forum at 8 o'clock on a Saturday night. I fail to see how "freak" makes me seem any lamer. Freak off.
 
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