Gun Control

[MutantScalper]

This has nothing to do with empathy, it's simply following law and order. A very novell idea I know. You do not want a biased jurisdiction as it might one day happen to drop on you. Having laws based solely on lynching people, just ends up in depotism where a punishment is not based on the basics of a civiliced society, but mob rule. It's a very small step from murdering thiefs to throwing people that are homless into jails and labeling critics as a 'dangerous' subject to society who should also be detained. This is exactly the kind of law you had in the Soviet Union, or now in China, or Saudi Arabia. You can not maintain an open society where criticism and free thinking are celbrated while having excesive and draconic laws, separation of power isn't just a form of governance of a state it's supposed to prevent the concenration of power and thus the corruption of it. We've seen time and time again what happens to societies that don't follow those principles and it always hits ordinary citizens as well.

True. However, and I really hate to even remotely be making a pro-gun case, there are many areas even in Europe pretty close to you that don't enjoy the level of "law and order" that Germany and especially the bigger cities in Germany enjoy. I think you live in Germany? Anyway, what should be done is fix all areas to have a high enough level of "law and order" in them. This is one of the things that, I presume, EU is trying to achieve in it's member countries.

So keep your Punisher-tights in the drawer everyone.

Spoiler

 

[TorontoReign]

Anyway, what should be done is fix all areas to have a high enough level of "law and order" in them. This is one of the things that, I presume, EU is trying to achieve in its member countries.

Spoiler

Yes, as free thinkers we should all abandon our arms and take up pole vaulting instead. A society of pole jumpers. Jumping poles wherever they go. Too and fro the poles will go.

SIMPLE AS THAT FOLKS! JUST MAKE MORE LAW AND ORDER!

 

[valcik]

True. However, and I really hate to even remotely be making a pro-gun case, there are many areas even in Europe pretty close to you that don't enjoy the level of "law and order" that Germany and especially the bigger cities in Germany enjoy. I think you live in Germany?

WTF? The dude going for the offender on his own ended in jail for murder, he villingly obeyed local authority AND CONSTITUTIONAL LAW in the end, accepted his official sentence, and served his jail time, which is mentioned in the post Vuk's referring to. He's just going apeshit with foam on his mouth, don't let his incoherent rants fool you.

 

[Hassknecht]

I had to look that meme up. Damnit. Once you hit 30 it's all downhill man. Clinch it up tight.

What did you fix ffs

/edit:

True. However, and I really hate to even remotely be making a pro-gun case, there are many areas even in Europe pretty close to you that don't enjoy the level of "law and order" that Germany and especially the bigger cities in Germany enjoy. I think you live in Germany? Anyway, what should be done is fix all areas to have a high enough level of "law and order" in them. This is one of the things that, I presume, EU is trying to achieve in it's member countries.

So keep your Punisher-tights in the drawer everyone.

Spoiler

High level of law and order. Bigger cities in Germany. Pick one.
The bigger the city, the more of a lawless hellhole it is.

 

[TorontoReign]

What did you fix ffs

/edit:

High level of law and order. Bigger cities in Germany. Pick one.
The bigger the city, the more of a lawless hellhole it is.

I assumed you saw it. I fixed humour to the AMERICAN version.

 

[MutantScalper]

What did you fix ffs

/edit:

High level of law and order. Bigger cities in Germany. Pick one.
The bigger the city, the more of a lawless hellhole it is.

Well true. You have the 'gangs' etc. small time crooks and hustlers of the big cities vs. the redneck/hillbilly incest rapists of the countryside. Pick your poison.

Then again, if you go to a police station in a hillbilly town, the cops are incest rapists as well. In a big city you might have a chance to find some nicer cops, maybe. Police usually protect the 'money areas' of a nation, and that tends to be the big cities.

 

[TorontoReign]

Well true. You have the 'gangs' etc. small time crooks and hustlers of the big cities vs. the redneck/hillbilly incest rapists of the countryside. Pick your poison.

Then again, if you go to a police station in a hillbilly town, the cops are incest rapists as well. In a big city you might have a chance to find some nicer cops, maybe.

The key thing to realize is everyone is a rapist. 90% of you in this thread will be raped at some point in your life.

 

[MutantScalper]

The key thing to realize is everyone is a rapist. 90% of you in this thread will be raped at some point in your life.

Toront,

I edited my post and added the thing about police protecting the money areas of a nation. So don't fixate on the rapist-part.

 

[Hassknecht]

Well true. You have the 'gangs' etc. small time crooks and hustlers of the big cities vs. the redneck/hillbilly incest rapists of the countryside. Pick your poison.

Then again, if you go to a police station in a hillbilly town, the cops are incest rapists as well. In a big city you might have a chance to find some nicer cops, maybe. Police usually protect the 'money areas' of a nation, and that tends to be the big cities.

We don't really have that kind of hillbilly shit in Germany, and the most rapists are in the cities. It's not just "small time crooks" and small gangs there, it's large scale drug dealing and money laundering. Granted, the drugs are produced in the back country, but the dealing is done in the big cities.
In Berlin you often have to change sides on the street because some drug dealers don't accept it if you don't buy from them.
And police? Good one. Chronically underfunded and worthless. In Berlin, stuff below armed robbery isn't even looked at anymore in some parts. Your bike got stolen, your car lit on fire? Dit is Berlin, wa.
Fuck urban areas in Germany.

 

[MutantScalper]

We don't really have that kind of hillbilly shit in Germany, and the most rapists are in the cities. It's not just "small time crooks" and small gangs there, it's large scale drug dealing and money laundering. Granted, the drugs are produced in the back country, but the dealing is done in the big cities.
In Berlin you often have to change sides on the street because some drug dealers don't accept it if you don't buy from them.
And police? Good one. Chronically underfunded and worthless. In Berlin, stuff below armed robbery isn't even looked at anymore in some parts. Your bike got stolen, your car lit on fire? Dit is Berlin, wa.
Fuck urban areas in Germany.

Well I didn't maybe express my point well, was just trying to say that, yes, the cops usually do their job well in the capital city and bigger cities. Or at least around some exclusive areas such as high value office buildings, military stuff and some upper class neighbourhoods in the bigger cities. In the more rural areas and smaller towns there are fewer cops and fewer resources resulting in overall lower level of law and order. So it's basically the same problem in the 'ghettos' of big cities and the countryside. This is how I see it.

Tourists are often prayed upon by pick pockets etc. scum. Don't like that stuff, a friend of mine lost her camera to one of those in Paris. And they were openly selling hard drugs on the street in Amsterdam. Then again the Dutch police is a bit a like the Swedish police, a bit....weak.

 

[Crni Vuk]

So you agree that deadly force is required sometimes depending on the circumstance it should be used to defend life. So if I shot someone entering my house while my family and I were home this is entirely self-defence and justified. So what kind of gun control are you looking for?

At the very least a gun regulation that's nationwide. Some states would probably even have to allow easier access to fire arms, where as other states would have to tighten some rules. For example, getting rid of the so called gun show loophole - if it's still in effect. Anyone buying a weapon should be also required to do weapon training, and I am not talking about a few hours on the gun range, I mean safety training and maybe a test based on it. Think about it like how you get car permit. Not everything has to be done trough regulations though as I believe that gun communites have to be strenghtened so more people decide to become members of a club or group, if people are socialized it might be easier to spot gun owners with issues. I am just brain storming here though.

Also the anti-Christian memes don't help you, as agnostic as I am religion of all kinds has had a mass benefit on the world (have you ever read the bible its like an early civilization survival guide in there) even if the fuck up sometimes (crusades, child rape, jihad, and such)

I am an atheist and it was just meant as joke. Religions are nothing more but delusions in my opinion that our mind cooked up because it required explanations for things it couldn't grasp at that time.

 

[Cliffy McEdgeface]

This is not RPG Codex. I know you see me posting there, and you see me agreeing with you on some things, and you see everyone tossing verbal barbs back and forth. The difference between RPG Codex and here is when we get pissed off we attempt to cool off and see reason. RPG Codex continues to roll around in shit because it is entertaining. Our forum is too small for that. My heart has been hardened as well, but you must see reason. Of course you see people dismissing valid points due to bias and it pisses you off. DEAL WITH IT. Don't let others have control over you. It makes you look foolish. Trust me.

I mean, I SEE their reasoning. I just think their reasoning fucking sucks and I don't care to sugarcoat that opinion. "Be reasonable" has always been the battlecry of those who would divest you of various important things so yeah, when I hear that kind of talk I INSTANTLY get suspicious. There's nothing inherently UNreasonable about saying "fuck off and leave me and mine alone".

Not slimy at all. You even said that you don't want to be part of society, and you made it entirely clear that you disagree with the basic principles of the modern constitutional state. You want to forego the rule of the law to satisfy your own brand of justice. That's fine. You're just a good example of a person who probably shouldn't have guns. I mean, I still wouldn't want to take your right to bear arms away, absolutely not, but you're the kind of person who might need a few binoculars and maybe a tranq rifle pointed at them in case you actually leave your home and someone scratches your car or something.
This, like before, is not just hyperbole, it's called humour.

I honestly don't get this slavish devotion to one imperfect, flawed solution over any other. I'm sure you think a constitutional state is the best damn thing ever or something given your immediate detour into defense by mocking the very idea of disparaging it. You'd bemoan the very idea of a single human being allowed to exercise violence against those who fuck with his shit in serious fashions (and you do it via hyperbolic "ZOMG HE GONNA SHOOT PEOPLE WHO TAKE HIS PAPER OR SCRATCH HIS CAR" wisecracking) but you will uncritically excuse the idea of the state having a monopoly on violence BECAUSE IT'S NOT LIKE THEY WOULD EVER MISUSE THAT, RIGHT GUYS? Is it better when the state fucks you up the ass than when John Q. Average does it? Now, if you absolutely INSISTED on having a state for some damn reason with all that entails, you COULD probably do significantly worse than a constitutional state because at least in theory you've written out a set of rules by which the state has to abide. So what happens when the state becomes powerful enough and realizes your little paper means dick and squat, and starts infringing and abridging your rights? I mean, the US is the ur-constitutional state at this point and it's already doing things like ignoring parts of the Bill of Rights as it deems convenient to do so.

 

[Hassknecht]

I honestly don't get this slavish devotion to one imperfect, flawed solution over any other. I'm sure you think a constitutional state is the best damn thing ever or something given your immediate detour into defense by mocking the very idea of disparaging it. You'd bemoan the very idea of a single human being allowed to exercise violence against those who fuck with his shit in serious fashions (and you do it via hyperbolic "ZOMG HE GONNA SHOOT PEOPLE WHO TAKE HIS PAPER OR SCRATCH HIS CAR" wisecracking) but you will uncritically excuse the idea of the state having a monopoly on violence BECAUSE IT'S NOT LIKE THEY WOULD EVER MISUSE THAT, RIGHT GUYS? Is it better when the state fucks you up the ass than when John Q. Average does it? Now, if you absolutely INSISTED on having a state for some damn reason with all that entails, you COULD probably do significantly worse than a constitutional state because at least in theory you've written out a set of rules by which the state has to abide. So what happens when the state becomes powerful enough and realizes your little paper means dick and squat, and starts infringing and abridging your rights? I mean, the US is the ur-constitutional state at this point and it's already doing things like ignoring parts of the Bill of Rights as it deems convenient to do so.

You don't get the "slavish devotion" because you have a fundamentally different view on what "the state" is. The state, in my (and our constitutional) view is the collective of the people in it, and all the power the state has is given to it by the people. It's not just a faceless menace tht exists outside of the people. The state has to have a monopoly on violence to work for all people in it, to ensure that due process and equality exists. The division of executive, legislative, and judicative power is there to ensure that not one entity can absorb all the power. Modern constitutions have a lot of precautions to prevent a quick descend into tyranny.
In case you got a case of bronyitis and don't remember it, I'm against gun control and I agree with an armed populace as a precaution against a tyrannical government, but that doesn't mean that the populace should also decide about law and punishment on an individual basis. It's the absolute basis of democracy, and while I get the appeal of anarcho capitalism, I don't see how it would lead to anything but a complete shithole.

 

[Cliffy McEdgeface]

You don't get the "slavish devotion" because you have a fundamentally different view on what "the state" is. The state, in my (and our constitutional) view is the collective of the people in it, and all the power the state has is given to it by the people. It's not just a faceless menace tht exists outside of the people. The state has to have a monopoly on violence to work for all people in it, to ensure that due process and equality exists. The division of executive, legislative, and judicative power is there to ensure that not one entity can absorb all the power. Modern constitutions have a lot of precautions to prevent a quick descend into tyranny.
In case you got a case of bronyitis and don't remember it, I'm against gun control and I agree with an armed populace as a precaution against a tyrannical government, but that doesn't mean that the populace should also decide about law and punishment on an individual basis. It's the absolute basis of democracy, and while I get the appeal of anarcho capitalism, I don't see how it would lead to anything but a complete shithole.

The state is not the people. It may have people in it, but it is absolutely not "the people" or any collectivization thereof. The state is a class apart by design, it is effectively a secular caste system. The bloody Soviets used the same reasoning of "The state is the people" in order to enact horrific violence using state apparatuses against numerous individuals - "in the people's name", of course. This is not a dysfunction of the state, it is a logical evolution of its actual purpose. The power the state has is not given to it, it is surrendered to it at gunpoint - you, the common man, are never in a position to negotiate and your consent is absolutely never mandatory. To say the state is given its power is to say you chose to give that mugger all the money in your wallet - it elides and obscures the nature of the matter while preserving your pride and little else. Democracy in this case (and specifically in the case of the United States, insofar as it could actually be called any kind of "democracy") is a tool OF the state AGAINST the people - individuals are given the illusion of choice between two (or more) parties, neither/none of which ever actually have the interest of the common man in mind, and then made to feel personally responsible for any and all results, allowing the state to effectively pass the buck by saying "Well, YOU voted us in, so you deserve us :^)". This system also serves to keep people constantly divided against one another, and we see this ESPECIALLY as of late where embittered Hillary voters treat Trump voters (and Bernie voters) as the scum of the earth, venting as much hatred as they can upon these people because it is absolutely safe to do so - the Trump/Bernie voter doesn't have a Secret Service or bodyguard retinue, after all. Nothing here is the result of any sort of happy/unhappy accident or "quirk" of the system - it is DESIGNED to keep you stupid, complacent towards the idea of a state and yet deliriously angry at, of all things, your fellow countryman/woman.

There is something often spoken of as "The Social Contract". A contract you never see, never put your name to and yet you are inextricably bound by. "The Social Contract" forms part of the backbone of statist thought. It very loosely establishes rules and obligations which can never be effectively opted out of. Euphemistically people say it just states "Don't be a dick". Why do you think people need a reminder to not be dicks? If people were completely predisposed to dickish behavior we likely wouldn't have made it past the stage where man first figured out how to bang rocks together in just the right ways to create tools and fire. We are a cooperative species first and foremost (and criminals that deliberately harm their fellow man are by their nature defective in one or more senses as a result) that literally evolved to get a neurochemical HIGH from being nice to other people. The very idea of The Social Contract is redundant at best and outright misanthropic at worst.

On a semi-related note - did you know that police actually have no duty to protect you? See Warren v. District of Columbia. So you're surrendering the ability to terminate threats against your life, liberty and property yourself, however you see fit for... nothing, really. This is the state laughing in your face. This is the state reminding you that you are disposable, peon. This is NOT the state doing what you thought it would be doing when you supposedly "agreed" to give it power.

Also, I'm going to ask this AGAIN: Is it better when the state fucks you in the ass than when John Q. Average does it?

 

[Hassknecht]

Just because the US has a constitution that is severely outdated doesn't mean all constitutions are shit and all governments are against the people. It's the same with universal healthcare: Just because the US can't get it done, doesn't mean it's impossible.

 

[Cliffy McEdgeface]

Just because the US has a constitution that is severely outdated doesn't mean all constitutions are shit and all governments are against the people. It's the same with universal healthcare: Just because the US can't get it done, doesn't mean it's impossible.

Oh we could ABSOLUTELY get it done if we'd stop giving the insurance lobby a chance to make it into sausage every time it comes up. The problems with the US constitution don't stem from age, they stem from the outright fucking sabotage the Hamiltonians have gone out of their way to wreak on it (I bet you think Abe Lincoln was just the shit. Man was a gorram tyrant and monster, emancipation be fucking DAMNED) and the fact that paper does not stop bullets and never fucking will. I'm sure there are plenty of government workers with charmed notions about helping people, somewhere, but they aren't fucking here that's for goddamn sure. The government cares only about self-perpetuation and every single goddamn thing they do revolves around the idea of job security. They are the biggest goddamn tumor on the collective livers of the American people you have ever fucking seen. Ronald Reagan was a massive shitstain but he was dead fucking on when he said some of the scariest words an American citizen can hear are "I'm from the government and I'm here to help".

So is it better when the state fucks you in the ass, as opposed to John Q. Average doing it? Do they use more lube? Give reacharounds? Cuddle afterwards?

 

[Hassknecht]

Oh we could ABSOLUTELY get it done if we'd stop giving the insurance lobby a chance to make it into sausage every time it comes up. The problems with the US constitution don't stem from age, they stem from the outright fucking sabotage the Hamiltonians have gone out of their way to wreak on it (I bet you think Abe Lincoln was just the shit. Man was a gorram tyrant and monster, emancipation be fucking DAMNED) and the fact that paper does not stop bullets and never fucking will. I'm sure there are plenty of government workers with charmed notions about helping people, somewhere, but they aren't fucking here that's for goddamn sure. The government cares only about self-perpetuation and every single goddamn thing they do revolves around the idea of job security. They are the biggest goddamn tumor on the collective livers of the American people you have ever fucking seen. Ronald Reagan was a massive shitstain but he was dead fucking on when he said some of the scariest words an American citizen can hear are "I'm from the government and I'm here to help".

So is it better when the state fucks you in the ass, as opposed to John Q. Average doing it? Do they use more lube? Give reacharounds? Cuddle afterwards?

That last sentence really went full Dave Autista and powerbombed itself into your brain, eh?
None is better, of course. Again, I'm all for defending against a tyrannical state, if necessary with violence. Usually, the defense starts with voting, then protests, and then goes to violence.
I'm also all for defending yourself against John Q. Average.
What I am against is the notion that lynch justice is ever good, that it's somehow ok to go to Mr. Average's house and paint his walls with his blood if you feel that the police is too slow.
But then again, I'm also quite content with living in a society and have no issue with any sort of social contract. I guess we differ there on a fundamental basis.

 

[Cliffy McEdgeface]

That last sentence really went full Dave Autista and powerbombed itself into your brain, eh?

I mean, you brought it up as if there are somehow no flies on Germany lately, which I have to admit is a bold direction to take. I'm sure Mutti Merkel likes you too, Hass.

None is better, of course. Again, I'm all for defending against a tyrannical state, if necessary with violence. Usually, the defense starts with voting, then protests, and then goes to violence.
I'm also all for defending yourself against John Q. Average.
What I am against is the notion that lynch justice is ever good, that it's somehow ok to go to Mr. Average's house and paint his walls with his blood if you feel that the police is too slow.
But then again, I'm also quite content with living in a society and have no issue with any sort of social contract. I guess we differ there on a fundamental basis.

So you're saying you don't think consent matters too much? Bet you're a HIT with the ladies. I mean, sometimes "no" really does mean "yes", right? Right? Wink wink, nudge nudge.

 

[Hassknecht]

wat
You're getting from "I have no problem living as part of the society I was born in" to "I'm a rapist"?
Seriously?
It's true, I have never actively consented to the social contract. However, I could just leave, or simply disregard it, like many people do (i.e. criminals). And so could you. By remaining here as a lawful citizen I consent to the social contract and the state because I benefit from it as well.
You can just leave the contract, but then you also forfeit all the benefits that come from it.

 

[Cliffy McEdgeface]

wat
You're getting from "I have no problem living as part of the society I was born in" to "I'm a rapist"?
Seriously?

I mean, you divined that I was some sort of psychotic hair-trigger killer-in-waiting because I emphatically stated that I would brook no unprovoked injurious actions against my person, my freedom or my valued belongings, so yeah, get cut by that sword why don't ya.

It's true, I have never actively consented to the social contract.

And this doesn't BOTHER YOU IN THE LEAST?

However, I could just leave

And go fucking where? Antarctica?

or simply disregard it, like many people do (i.e. criminals). And so could you.

I like having my asshole intact and Johnny Law has a huge fucking dick (and people like you gave him that dick, you unbelievable assholes). Don't get me wrong, fuck the state, but I know better than to pick a losing fight like THAT on my own. Cops can be barely arsed to care about most criminals, but legit resistance to government will put you on the shitlists of people who make sport out of fucking over people they THINK might be getting ready to tell Uncle Sam to piss off into the sun. See: Ruby Ridge.

By remaining here as a lawful citizen I consent to the social contract and the state because I benefit from it as well.
You can just leave the contract, but then you also forfeit all the benefits that come from it.

No. You can't leave the contract. That's the entire fucking problem. A contract you didn't sign that declares you to be an enemy of all fucking mankind the moment you so much as question its legitimacy, and leaves you with the recourses of (get this) crossing the biggest motherfuckers with the biggest fucking guns AND their sycophants, or literally fucking off and dying in a hole. This is not a legitimate contract, nothing about it is legitimate and ex post facto rationalizations do not MAKE it legitimate. That isn't how contracts fucking work.

If some asshole comes knocking on my door asking why I haven't been to the widget factory to do my job, and I ask him when the blueberry fuckmuffin I signed a contract to work for his fucking factory, and he pulls out a contract with my name forged to it and declares it binding, I'm not going to say that contract is fucking legitimate just because the widget factory company offers some decent benefits. I'm going to tell him to kindly get fucked.