Gun Control

Jogre said:
Oh wow, nevermind I actually agree with most of what you just said here.

Sorry I was being a bit presumptuous about your motives, it's just that we've had a few weird users here over the years like @Vergil and @IlluminatiConfirmed who self-assuredly claimed to know what the cause of crime was, and ended up having strange views about race.

Was pleasantly surprised to see that you actually had a very progressive viewpoint here.
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I have never called myself a progressive and never plan to. I am, depending on who you ask, an evil rightwing nazi, a classical liberal, an insane anarchist or (my personal favorite because I gave it to myself) a remarkably sane insane person

I mean, I'll be perfectly honest I have some personal bugaboos from life experience that tend to elicit raised eyebrows but I generally try to keep them in check
 
That Damn Dog said:
I have never called myself a progressive and never plan to. I am, depending on who you ask, an evil rightwing nazi, a classical liberal, an insane anarchist or (my personal favorite because I gave it to myself) a remarkably sane insane person
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Sorry, I didn't intend to place a political label on you. I know that "Progressive" has come to be used interchangeably with liberal.

I simply meant progressive as in in favour of positive social reform(Which your view on prisons is). I didn't mean it as a way of politically labelling you.
 
MutantScalper said:
There are large areas of Finland that don't have quick police presence available. People still don't buy guns there for 'self protection' or whatever. Yes, they complain and when, because of right wing induced budget cuts, they have to reduce the number of cops or police stations in some area, it's not a good situation and some people will have lesser protection against crime. Then again we have overall lower levels of crime compared to US so no need for every man, woman, baby, gramps to prepare 24/7/365 to an all out blast out/OK Corrall.

US has more problems than shitty-ass gun laws, they also have very high crime figures. Before they can kick out the nazi-ass right wingers they will continue to be a high-crime/high gun violence -nation that endlessly tries to solve societal problems by using guns as a kind of half-ass bandage that just makes the problems worse.
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Yeah, our problem is so many people actually want to come here, unlike Finland.
 
That Damn Dog said:
I actually find the comparison between Finland and the USA absolutely fucking hilarious and absurd. Eurochauvinism, perhaps?
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The most common Euro comment on guns is "Hey it's not violent here in Latveria where Doctor Doom controls with his iron cock of Progressive Justice."
 
TorontRayne said:
The most common Euro comment on guns is "Hey it's not violent here in Latveria where Doctor Doom controls with his iron cock of Progressive Justice."
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I'm sure he'd probably stroke his cock to stories of Simo Hayha even as he lambastes us for having too many guns. Wonder how Simo would have done with a pocketknife instead? Hmmm.
 
That Damn Dog said:
I'm sure he'd probably stroke his cock to stories of Simo Hayha even as he lambastes us for having too many guns. Wonder how Simo would have done with a pocketknife instead? Hmmm.
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Simo Hawha is not amused.
 
Just to jump into this snake pit, I agree with That Damn Dog in terms of how Progressive is used; any time anyone describes themselves as that I cringe instinctively. As for guns, I'm a Libertarian. Own what you like. Guns aren't the cause of all society's ills; I can taunt and cajole a shotgun all day but the only time it'll take me out is when there's a human on the other end squeezing the trigger. Also, as for those who say "hunting weapons are fine, but why do you need an assault rifle?", compare the scary assault rifle 7.62 round to a .308 round that most hunting weapons are chambered for. The hunting rifle round is MUCH bigger. Go ahead, walk into a Cabella's and check. I find it amusing that most people who are so afraid and anti-gun have never even held one in their lives.

I'm also sorry if this comes across as angry or insulting. To clarify, whether or not you're pro or anti gun I take no exception to you (unless you're a paedophile in which case society does not need you; though that's another argument entirely); I believe in being accepting of all races, religions and opinions. I just personally think there are bigger problems that need to be solved before we can dump all our issues out on firearms.

P.S. Just in case anyone refers to my paedophile comment as me being against the mentally ill, I myself have been diagnosed with Borderline Personality Disorder and an "unknown psychotic disorder" previously misdiagnosed as Paranoid Schizophrenia. I believe that by being open about my mental disorders it will inspire others to open up and help end the stigma around mental illness; for the same reason, I'll never use my illnesses as a reason that I can't do something or as an excuse to be offended, because that's an insult to anyone else with these disorders. But I also believe that some people can't be cured. And those who prey on children fall into that category. As well, the circumstances of their illness, in my eyes, makes them deserving of all the hate they get.
 
I think you mean 5.56 mm, because 7.62 mm NATO is based on the .308 and they're nearly identical. And considered full (battle) rifle cartridges, unlike 5.56 mm, which is the actual intermediate assault rifle round. And it's not the power that people are "scared" off, quite the opposite. The weaker intermediate cartridge makes it more controllable and higher rates of fire while still giving enough power at ranges longer than a handgun round. Which is the entire point of the intermediate cartridge, it's powerful enough to have stopping power over ranges up to 300 m (I think) and is much more controllable than a battle rifle round especially at full auto.
 
Hassknecht said:
I think you mean 5.56 mm, because 7.62 mm NATO is based on the .308 and they're nearly identical. .
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Yeah sorry about that :oops:

And as for why, I understand the fear. I do. But I've always been of a mind that division is just as dangerous as any other issue. I hate political labels (though by calling myself "Libertarian" I'm labeling myself; more of that American hypocrisy I suppose), because they divide us. Whether it's gun control, abortion, or politics in general, we create an "us vs. them" mentality that I find abhorrent. I believe in unity (where's The Master when you need him?), and that only through it can we truly solve anything. I argue a lot about this with my dad, because he believes humans will never come together like I propose. Call me naïve (go ahead, I don't give a shit), but I truly believe in a equal society, one in which other opinions can be accepted.

Yet I look around and all I see is hate. I'm by no means a hippie, but what the world needs is love. It's half the reason I clarified my last post. I don't want to foster the very division I claim to abhor so much. When human beings work together we can accomplish truly great things. But when we're divided, we're like the NCR; "a two headed bear, each head pulling in a different direction, going nowhere."
 
I can see why people would want to ban semi-automatic intermediate rifles. Unlike shotguns or hunting rifles, they were specifically developed to be tools of warfare. They're optimized for killing people, not for hunting or for self-defense. But the statistics show clearly that the majority of gun-related violence is done with handguns, so what's the point of banning "assault rifles" for everyone when the impact will be hardly noticable?
I maintain that I'd like to see gun ownership be as liberal as possible, but that also requires a population that is responsible and smart. This makes this debate hard for me, because while I believe that everyone should have equal rights to gun ownership, I don't believe that more than half of the population is really fit to own a gun. Personal development and intelligence is lacking in too many people. Being so desensitized to violence that it becomes a real fucking option to pull a gun on your fellow man over a parking spot? The majority of people should not have guns, but if one were to implement a ton of tests and safeguards and background checks, gun ownership isn't exactly liberal anymore, becoming much closer to the european model.
Everyone is pointing their fingers at Switzerland as an example of a country with lots of guns and little problems, but it's the swiss culture and the swiss people that allow this to happen. Not everyone is Swiss, and what works well in Switzerland does obviously not work in the US. If the USA could become more like Switzerland, great, but that's not going to happen.
 
I agree entirely. I don't want to ban guns myself, but I definitely understand why the gun control debate happens. As for the population being too stupid... yeah I feel you.
 
I don't understand the other side of the gun control debate at all. I mean, I understand the words coming out of their mouths, but their talking points are so much emotional, hysterical horseshit undeserving of any well thought out response it's amazing they get as many well thought out responses as they do. Not that they do any good, because feels beat reals in gungrabber land.

"How many children have to die before you support gun control?!"
All of them, motherfucker.

the best thing about the gungrabbers is how they sideline the issue of mental health care accessibility and stigma in favor of "SKURRY GUNZ BABY KILLING AK47s ASSAULT WEAPONS" drivel. Violent crime (including crimes where a gun was involved) have been trending down since I was fucking BORN, a significant portion of the gun "death toll" is suicides (and they'll always conveniently omit that fact when they try and bludgeon you with figures like that), and you could ban every damn gun in existence tomorrow and criminals would still have guns. Muh flash hiders, muh collapsible stocks, fuck you. Most firearm crime is committed with handguns anyway, not rifles, and the handguns used are frequently cheapshit .22LR ghettoblaster throwaways which we've already legislated against with SNS laws to no avail. Tell me about how more gun laws are going to help, please, I need some meaningless background noise to fall asleep to.
 
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That Damn Dog said:
the best thing about the gungrabbers is how they sideline the issue of mental health care accessibility and stigma in favor of "SKURRY GUNZ BABY KILLING AK47s ASSAULT WEAPONS" drivel.
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I will definitely say that I agree with that point. When I was misdiagnosed with schizophrenia it was during a stay in a mental health ward at a hospital due to a particularly bad psychotic break. And as I said before, I'm very open about my issues because I believe that the best way to fight stigma is through honesty and education; but you can see that that stigma is still there when you tell people.

I'm not gonna get on my soapbox and preach, because I know we're afraid of the unknown. But I can logically explain my BPD and psychotic disorder, hopefully spreading tolerance; but that isn't good enough for some people. One of the hardest things about leaving the hospital and later outpatient was accepting the fact that there are some people who will be afraid of my disorders, no matter what I say. And those are the kinds of people, I believe, who blame gun violence on "crazy people"; in my eyes they're just as bad as the gungrabbers for not realizing that mental health is (generally) something that can be treated. And that stigma they purport is half the reason why many people with mental illness don't feel comfortable being honest and open; and that's a damn shame. Because I believe that help for those with mental illnesses should be a higher priority than banning firearms. But no, we want to blame inanimate objects for society's ills, not inadequate mental health care, economic inequality, etc.

There are deeper issues behind violence than just weapons. They provide the means, yes, but not the origin of intent. And by failing to dig deeper and ask why these people commit violence, we're content to believe that just imposing stricter gun laws will magically usher in a utopia, whether immediately or over the course of decades, because "hey it works in Europe!"
 
"I'm not saying that they're retarded, but... They are" - That Damn Dog, 2018.

I *could* make up the diametric opposite version of that post, but I lack the will to spout such nonsense and then pretend like I'm Mr. Rationale and whine about how there's no debate, "for some reason".
 
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Jogre said:
After reconsidering, I have actually changed my opinion on this topic somewhat.

I'm not very comfortable with the idea of guns as a casual thing that people just parade around like it's nothing. I think that many people have lost their lives in attacks with weapons like these, and it would probably be a lot better for the state of minds of people who knew victims of attacks if the gun crowd was maybe a little more tactful about how they parade around their weapons.

HOWEVER

I think we ought to consider that many people in rural parts of the US where the police can't reach, or in communities that have traditionally had trouble with the police may not be able to rely on the police to protect them, and in such situations we need to have them able to protect themselves.

In addition, I know that the "government tyranny" argument may seem ridiculous, but there is some legitimacy to the claim: Take the Zapatistas of Mexico for instance, it's been 20 years since they first declared war on the Mexican government and they are still alive and kicking, mostly due to them being heavily armed. It'd be foolish to assume that western nations are immune to corruption and tyranny, so I don't blame people for wanting to prepare for the worst.

I'm incredibly uncomfortable with the mass shootings that take place so often, and I totally see the legitimacy of wanting stricter gun control, however I kinda think we need a more centrist approach, that respects some people may need to protect themselves a lot more than we admit.

You realise that the US is very right wing compared to the rest of the world right?

Most Democrat politicians would be considered centrists in a lot of countries if they spouted the same policies.
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Thank you for making this step toward understanding the importance of guns. I get that seeing people walk around wearing guns and other weapons like they're fashion accessories can be a bit scary and unusual, but bigger and better guns are harder to hide in your undies. And when mass shootings happen, you want the civilians with guns to have better guns than the shooter, to increase their chances at taking the shooter out before the shooter kills everyone.

I want people to own guns legally, and be proud of them. I want people to go out to gun ranges and practice shooting. I want people to consider it a fun social activity. I want people who see guns in pockets and waistbands to go "Oh, good, an armed civilian is around me" instead of "Oh holy fuck, another icky gun owner is here! Time to tweet about how dumb gun owners are and how much I believe I could disarm this demon if I had to!". I want people to think owning a gun legally is a cool thing, not a bad thing you should be ashamed of.

Why? Because I want people to think saving the lives of others is a cool thing.

Also, good on you for looking at countries besides the US to see how "strict gun control" turned out for them!
 
SilverStarApple/Epsilon7 said:
And when mass shootings happen, you want the civilians with guns to have better guns than the shooter, to increase their chances at taking the shooter out before the shooter kills everyone.
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:lmao:

Otherwise, I don't know where you've seen pro gun control reform people state anything contrary to what you said. Maybe in the same place where you've seen the above happen anywhere reliably and accurately enough to be worth it by itself.
 
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