Walpknut
This ghoul has seen it all
They are 30 new weapons 40 mods and 50 ammo types, and it is 4 dollars, is not that much.
Gun Runners’ Arsenal preview, part 4
- Thread starter WorstUsernameEver
- Start date
This ghoul has seen it all
Reconite said:
So they cut weapons from the game so that they could sell them back to you. Weapons you can already get for free if you're on the PC. Why are you defending this?
And as for the 5.56mm Pistol's texture being copied, are you kidding me? It's just a cleaner, more black texture on That Gun, you gonna tell me modders invented the colour black too?It only makes sense that a Gun Runner distributed version of That Gun would be clean and not scratched up and battered like That Gun's texture.
I didn't say the modders "invented" it, I said that they're taking something modders are already offering for free and slapping a price tag on it. The one they're selling looks exactly the same as the one you can get for free from mods. It is not some kind of new special texture or anything which was my point in the first place, not that the modders "invented" it. I wouldn't be as pissed off if they'd taken the time to actually changed this weapon to be different from the one you can already get for free.
Why? They're taking something you can already get for free, and trying to sell it to you. Weapons that by the time you get to the Gun Runner's store will already be obsolete since you'll have their unique counterparts. They probably aren't even going as far as the mod did by making NPC's carry these non-unique weapons.
You will notice that I'm not complaining about the new unique version of That Gun. I have nothing against the actual new weapons that this adds, it's just that they seem to be adding a lot of "new" weapons (read: re-named vanilla weapons, ported Fallout 3 weapons, weapons available free in mods) to the list to appear like you're getting more for your money than you actually are.
The actual number of new weapons you get is 16, not 27. That's even being nice and including the re-textures like the unique hunting rifle.
Walpknut said:
Wrong, there are 27 new weapons. 7 of those are re-named vanilla weapons (same stats, same appearance, same everything) that can now be modded. 2 of those are ported Fallout 3 weapons. 2 of those are weapons you can get for free in a mod.
The ammo types are irrelevant as it requires almost no work to create new ammo types.
You say that like they had prior knowledge that they were going to decide to put them back in or something, I think it's pretty damn obvious GRA isn't "Day 1 DLC" material. There was also 4 big DLCs previously released.Courier said:
Fuck it, we're done talking. But please, continue whining about modders inventing everything and Obsidian stealing their own content.
Reconite said:
That's not even my point, you can already get these for free if you're on the PC! It pisses me off that they couldn't have re-textured these or given them new models or something instead of selling the exact same ones you can get for free on the PC.
The second thing that pisses me off about these is that most likely GRA is doing less than the mod does by making these new non-unique weapons only available at the Gun Runner's instead of making NPC's carry them. The professional work should not be lower quality than the amateur work some dude did in his spare time for free.
You're the one defending the practice of a company taking content you could already get for free and trying to sell it calling it "new content". I'm not saying it's illegal, only immoral.
Walpknut
This ghoul has seen it all
Well techncally yo ucan get quest mods and new maps for free, so why even buying new games?
Walpknut said:
I would be just as pissed if Obsidian or Bethesda tried to sell me a DLC featuring a quest that I could already download for free on the Nexus.
{Edit: Wouldn't you be upset if they started trying to sell you "New Vegas Bounties" for $5?}
Seriously, the non-unique counterparts of these weapons are barely even visually different than the unique ones. The least they could have done was given them new textures so that they'd be a higher quality than the free ones.
Obsidian is a professional company, and making video games is a huge industry. If they don't like me holding them to higher standards than I do amateur modders then they need to get out of the business. I actually like Obsidian, that's why I'm ashamed to see them putting out this shit (although Bethesda's likely behind some of it, that doesn't mean they couldn't have done higher quality work).
Edit: I was annoyed by Gun Runner's Arsenal before I heard that they were calling these "new content". Now I'm just pissed.
http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/GRA_12.7mm_submachine_gun
http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/GRA_anti-materiel_rifle
http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/GRA_assault_carbine
http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/GRA_Plasma_Defender
http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/GRA_plasma_pistol
http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/GRA_tri-beam_laser_rifle
http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/GRA_hunting_revolver
Edit: Especially since they did just copy the weapon mods from this free mod on the Nexus:
http://www.newvegasnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=39651
The same one that happens to add the non-unique versions of That Gun and This Machine.
Walpknut
This ghoul has seen it all
It's Devil Bethesda fault, it always is.
They have to release separated GRA versions of vanilla game because they have to keep the mods separated from each other and to not change the vanilla game content to avoid compativility issues. You don't want to get incompatibility issues with future patches because you downloaded it, or to be forced to download GRA because the patch was made wit the GRA in mind. Also you really love to make assumptions, like when yo usaid Lonesome Road should be free because a different but similar Ulysses was gonna appear on the core game.
They have to release separated GRA versions of vanilla game because they have to keep the mods separated from each other and to not change the vanilla game content to avoid compativility issues. You don't want to get incompatibility issues with future patches because you downloaded it, or to be forced to download GRA because the patch was made wit the GRA in mind. Also you really love to make assumptions, like when yo usaid Lonesome Road should be free because a different but similar Ulysses was gonna appear on the core game.
Yeah I admit I was overreacting about the Ulysses thing, I just wanted something to rant about that night. {Edit: And yeah I was wrong too, it was pretty clearly not what Ulysses story arc was originally going to be} I've been opposed to this since the beginning though.
The GRA versions of vanilla weapons should count as new weapons because, y'know, they function differently. Setting aside the fact that GRA Laser Pistols, for instance, have iron sights in GRA, there's the fact that the GRA versions accept mods which change their statistics. So they function differently from their basegame counterparts. Also lol, just lol, at anyone "copying" WMX. I like WMX. I use WMX. WMX is a good mod. But 90% of the mods it ads are extended magazines, scopes, or silencers. Not exactly super-original.
Anyway, if we can step away from Courier being a huge entitled baby for a second, it seems like shotguns and explosives are getting a lot of attention here. Explosives always seemed like the most neglected weapons skill to me 'cuz it's kind of one-note. Anyone else feel that way?
Anyway, if we can step away from Courier being a huge entitled baby for a second, it seems like shotguns and explosives are getting a lot of attention here. Explosives always seemed like the most neglected weapons skill to me 'cuz it's kind of one-note. Anyone else feel that way?
DemonNick said:
Yeah, the only difference between them and the vanilla weapons is that you can mod them. Why couldn't they have just made the mods work on the vanilla weapons?
Have you seen the weapon mods they're adding in GRA? That's what they're adding; scopes, silencers, laser sights, etc. The same stuff WMX adds.
TheFlyingBuddha
It Wandered In From the Wastes
Courier said:
Both valid reactions but there are a few issues at work here. First, ignoring consoles completely: [EDIT: Skip this, that's been covered]. I'm willing to bet the vast majority of sales on this will be for consoles, where mods aren't an option.
Second, even with PC users there is an audience that simply doesn't understand or can't be bothered with mods. I used to be really into the mod scenes for Oblivion and FO3 but over time I realized what a waste of my time it was to wade through page after page of shit mods to find the good ones (and that's before time spent installing, and inevitably, troubleshooting). If that audience is willing to pay for new content there's nothing dishonest about this. The company is providing them with content and an easy, no-hassle package and delivery method. It's not like they're taking down the GECK tomorrow and disabling the "Data Files" option in the launcher.
Finally, if anything the method they are using to implement the content *IS* the most professional one. As has been pointed out, the methods for implementing mods lead to a lot of issues when you start combining multiple plugins and masters. That's just an unfortunate side effect. Modders have come up with all sorts of ways of coping with it but the fact is changing the core game elements would cause issues which means you're introducing new potential bugs all over the place. As the studio, you don't want that because you can't afford patches this far out from release. It's not even cost effective for them to patch DLC because of the file structure issues.
Finally I'm willing to bet that Sawyer wants those items on merchants so players have something to spend money on. He had that in mind when he put weapon mods and ammo subtypes on merchants in the core game. Now imagine you're offering content to people who are probably playing on saves that are 100+ hours and have a few thousand caps that have felt worthless for the last 40 hours of game play. They also probably want quick access to this new content they've just purchased, so putting them on merchants solves that too.
I'm not saying you're completely off the mark. Retextures, cut content, and cloning is not satisfying - I'm sure the devs would be the first to agree with you there - but to label it dishonest, heartless, and greedy is a stretch. These aren't modders, they're people who get paid to make and deliver content.
I can think of a few reasons. The fact it'd break a lot of mods comes to mind. But they seem more restricted in what they can do than modders are in general. Maybe it's a certification thing? It is a mystery.Courier said:
Yeah. I didn't say they weren't. What I said was that that it's kind of ludicrous to talk about them copying the mods from WMX when they're obvious mods. You know, because you said that they'd copied the weapon mods from WMX? It's nice to know that your reading comprehension is as deficient as your sense of proportion.
They made GRA versions of the weapons, because of the way DLCs and esp file are handled. Some weapons had been changed with patches, etc. so using the GRA DLC would have produced a conflict here and so on.
Sawyer explained it already a few times on his formspring account.
Sawyer explained it already a few times on his formspring account.
Lexx said:
And these should not be counted as "new weapons".
Instead of advertising 27 "new" weapons they should only be advertising 20. Those 7 weapons are not "new" for anyone, even console players.
I do not really care about that. Even if it's just 20 "new" weapons, it's still a big weapon pack.
Anyway, what I do not like is that the non-unique weapons are only available at traders. It's clear to me why this is the case, but it's still meh, as this makes them a kind of unique-weapon again. Will probably make me a mod for it and add some of the weapons to various late-game dudes.
Anyway, what I do not like is that the non-unique weapons are only available at traders. It's clear to me why this is the case, but it's still meh, as this makes them a kind of unique-weapon again. Will probably make me a mod for it and add some of the weapons to various late-game dudes.
Kerr-Plomb
It Wandered In From the Wastes
Honestly, I bet if the pack wasn't ~30 weapons with I don't know, 15 NEW models but simply a pack with 15 new models for the same price less people would moan about it.
Don't think so. People would still say it's a ripoff, because people think that weapon packs == ripoffs... which is normally true, looking at DLCs for DoW2, ME, etc. but so far (to me) it seems GRA offers more than that.
Kerr-Plomb
It Wandered In From the Wastes
The problem is that many don't differenciate.
Two Worlds 2 got a new DLC on steam for 27€, of course everyone said: DLC for 27€? No way!
Why is it a DLC? Because that is the easiest way to implement any paid content on steam. In fact, it is an addon that has many more hours of fun included than most 10€ DLCs (3-4 hours in my experience).
Another good example for a well done DLC is the Shogun 2 one. 7€ for a comepletely different time setting, a new campaign map, 4 new clans, nearly 30 new units (completely new models or at least reworked ones), new retainers and agents and so on.
That's content that will easily entertain you for over 50 hours.
Two Worlds 2 got a new DLC on steam for 27€, of course everyone said: DLC for 27€? No way!
Why is it a DLC? Because that is the easiest way to implement any paid content on steam. In fact, it is an addon that has many more hours of fun included than most 10€ DLCs (3-4 hours in my experience).
Another good example for a well done DLC is the Shogun 2 one. 7€ for a comepletely different time setting, a new campaign map, 4 new clans, nearly 30 new units (completely new models or at least reworked ones), new retainers and agents and so on.
That's content that will easily entertain you for over 50 hours.
frosty_theaussie
Still Mildly Glowing
Kradath said:
Back in my day we called those "expansion packs", before contemporary video game journalism and reporting appropriated DLC to refer to every single item of post-release content and the moronic gaming public started using it to get outraged over things they haven't an iota of knowledge about.
Looks like GRA and Courier's Stash are out on Xbox live already. Can't check it though. At least Steam doesn't show anything yet.
/Edit: Jason Berman confirms via Twitter.
/Edit: Jason Berman confirms via Twitter.