Guns for Terrorists-

Well i do like to fish as well............ 8)

Well i can say that i agree i dont want criminals to get guns anymore than you do, but i do know that they will continue to get guns even with tougher and tougher legislation. What i dont want to see is tougher restrictions on the law abiding gun owners, collectors or hunters, and i dont want to see it done for "the greater good" because thats an invitation for disaster when you group the law abiding gun owners and put them on the same level as criminals your asking for trouble. Groups like the NRA represent both owners and manufacturers because they are both under scrutiny for the link they share= gun buyers=gun manufactures=anti-gun lawsuits=legislation in congress=trouble for honest people.
 
Honestly Bob, I agree with you on this- I don't want to see hunters, collectors or law-abiding gun-owners restricted either.

Ok, I admit that I am willing to see restrictions on assault weapons. Prior to the Assault Weapon Ban, the weapons targetted were among those most used by crimes as reported to the DOJ. That said, I don't see why a few modest restrictions really should matter. I mean, is giving up a 30 shot clip that big a deal?

But the thing is that criminals have to get their guns somehow. If retailers of gun manufactures are putting guns into the market for criminal use, or if producers (like the"fingerproofed" Tec-9) are intending a market to criminal use- shouldn't they be held accountable?

If a producer made a baby blanket advertising, "Did you forget to go to the abortion clinic and now have a kid you don't want. Well our new Romko Baby Blanket is highly flammable! Furthermore, if you put it around the kids throat there's a good chance the child might get smothered!" - that would be a producer that would be waiting for a law suit.

And while I agree with you that the NRA and gun-owners do share some of the same interests, my point is simply that their interests don't exactly coincide in all respects. While you may be trying to preserve your write to go hunting or collect, the manufacturers interests are profits.

I am guessing that most gun owners don't want terrorists to buy an AR-15 and a box of hollow tip rounds from the local Walmart and then go on a shooting spree. Yet that seems to be what the NRA is saying.
 
I believe that new laws aren't really needed we just need to enforce the existing laws. The assault weapon ban really had little effect as the material under the ban was mostly cosmetic features for assault rifles, no huge changes in violent crime rates and a humongous pre-ban market that made it possible to get high round mags. and cosmetic features like that "long" pistol grip.

My point is that so far in our country's now long history of "gun control" we have passed an outrageous amount of gun laws and restrictions targeting criminals, and you know what criminals still get guns. I have always believed that gun violence (any violent crime) has underlying causes, being poor home life, bullied at school, drugs, or whatever the cause; violent crime will not be stopped until these issues are addressed, focusing on guns is just addressing the result of a chain of events and ignoring the chain of events its self.
 
bob_the_rambler said:
I I have always believed that gun violence (any violent crime) has underlying causes, being poor home life, bullied at school, drugs, or whatever the cause; violent crime will not be stopped until these issues are addressed, focusing on guns is just addressing the result of a chain of events and ignoring the chain of events its self.
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I will agree with that Bob. We spend too much time thinking of guns as the cause of violence and not why the guns are used in the first place.
 
also this kinda ties in with the minute man project, but i found this article interesting http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=43171

If you read it through it tells of illigal gun runners and violent gang members coming through our leaky borders, untill this is stopped a person can sign all the law they want and they are still going to have a serious problem. Just think these people have been coming through unchecked for decades bringing guns, drugs and crime. I live in AZ and to me these two issues are linked. literally in my back yard these two issues come together.
 
The sad thing is, no matter how much legislation you put into place, criminals will still get guns. For exampled, the colombine shooters had weapons that were banned by the assault weapons ban. They got them how? Illegally.

Now, I have a little story to tell you. It harks back about little more than a decade ago to a pretty well known bank robbery that occurred in LA. The robbers came in with full body armor and AK-47's. In the resulting several hour standoff/chase/shootout, the police were rendered just about impotent with their meager 9x19 mm handguns. (Impotent to the point where when the robbers car broke down, one got out and pushed while being shot at and occasionally shooting back) And they remained impotent until they went to a gun shop and bought the civilian version of an M16. Bam. The robbers go down in a heart beat.

What does this teach us? A few things. First, as i mentioned earlier, criminals will get guns no matter how much regulation you put on them. Now, as a law abiding citizen do you want to have an inferior weapon, or have as good of (or better) a weapon as the criminals? And more importantly, if ''assualt weapons'' (the term in itself was coined to vilify automatic rifles during the campaign to ban/limit them) are banned, are the police going to have the means to counter them? No. They are illegal, why should the police be able to counter something *illegal?*

So long post short the more law abiding citizens running around with powerful weaponry, the more of a deterrent. Would you commit a crime if you had a good chance to get get blown away? not likely.
 
Tempistfury said:
''assualt weapons'' (the term in itself was coined to vilify automatic rifles during the campaign to ban/limit them)
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The term Assault Gun/Weapon/Rifle was coined atleast 60 years ago. Perhaps the StG-44 was the first, perhaps not. Either way, the term was not coined to villify a class of weapon, unless nazi germany was in this fight... I didn't mean to go so off topic, but I'm pretty tired of hearing this.
 
Nazi Germany regarded that specific rifle (also referred to as the MP-44) as a Machien Pistol

The term "assault weapon" Is a new term, and if not specifically *created* to vilify the weapons, it was used extensively as of late to do so.
 
The Sturmgewehr-44 was an Assault "Rifle"

There is a clear difference between the term Assault Rifle and the term Assault Weapon.
 
I didn't know I could just walk in a store and buy AK47... I know I can buy a cheap $300 plinking rifle made in China or Bulgaria that they market as "AK47". Heh, I bet all those idiots who buy it think it's a machine gun like AK47 - boy are those terrorists in for a surprise... Cheap semi-auto crap we get here in the United States is worthless - it's so inaccurate you can't hit SHIT, and the ammo it uses is too weak for semi-autos, they shoulda chambered it for 7.62mm NATO. Oh, and if you try to convert that crap to full-auto, it'll explode, because cheap parts can't handle the stress... lol, stupid terrorists

and I never heard about anyone using AR15 in a crime - must be cuz they're too damn expensive, at least $1200/piece... i'd say if anyone has the money to buy them ain't no crazed junkie or a gangster

btw, hi
 
Have you even ever bought (or fired a semiautomatic rifle) they are considerably more accurate than one of their cousins on full auto and if you bother shopping around you can actually find some rather durable semi-auto rifles. you kinda missed the point of this thread, i dont really think the issue here is what types of guns that are being bought; but rather the fact that people on the terror watch lists can even buy rifles and handguns.
 
well my point was that dreaded "ak47" are junk guns, and american public should actually feel safer knowing that terrorists prefer those guns. besides, accuracy of a single shot has little to do with whether or not you're firing a machinegun version or not. yeah, when you fire AK on full-auto, the barrel vibrates from shock, but you have bigger problem to worry about, the recoil. and if you're talking about AR rifles, well then military issue M16 and sporting AR15 knockoffs are not just the same gun with/without full autofire capability, which is what you seem to be saying.

besides, show me a gundealer who would sell a firearm to middle easterner. i doubt you'll find a single dealer in the entire country who'd do that. rmember, dealers have the right to refuse sale for any reason!
 
Bob, I have heard that as well- semi-automatic fire is more accurate than fully automatic. With a big enough clip you can fire 30 rounds in a minute?

RealEagle said:
besides, show me a gundealer who would sell a firearm to middle easterner. i doubt you'll find a single dealer in the entire country who'd do that. rmember, dealers have the right to refuse sale for any reason!
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Boy that's a relief. I can trust in the good wholesome ethnic biases of gun retailers. With good faith, who needs law?
 
I find it ludicrous that gun dealers can sell to damn near anyone damn near anything, but can also refuse to sell to whoever they choose.

This is an example of why I think firearms sales should be in the hands of the feds and not citizens. If we're all gonna be allowed to pack, we shouldn't have to find a retailer who won't discriminate against us because we look different.

And anytime someone says assault anything I think its bad, -weapon or -rifle is insignificant semantics, used by the NRA and such to split hairs in politics and ethics.
 
Murdoch, if the feds would be the ones to sell guns, all we'd get in the way of self-defense would be puny single-shot .22LR handguns with 20" barrels and 50lbs trigger pull, and you can only have one for your whole life. People who make laws in this country are afraid and distrustful of its citizens - we're all violent criminals and homicidal maniacs ready to go on a shooting spree any second.

^ Welsh, Thats hardly a good alternative to gundealers who dont sell guns to 'thugged-out' blacks or middle easterners. Besides, anyone can apply for FFL license, i wouldnt be surprised if there are arab gundealers who passed federal background checks... of course nowadays theyd probably want to delay the process of granting the license for as long as possible, and will prolly put on terrorist watchlist every arab who as much as applies for FFL

Murdoch, youd be surprised to know that absolute majority of "assault weapons" are marketed to gun nuts, not crazies and criminals. And gun nuts are well-known for hating criminals! Assault guns are therefore used VERY, VERY RARELY in crime. And you know what they say, if it ain't broken, don't fix it - assault rifles dont pose any credible threat to ordinary citizens or law enforcement, just like violent games are yet to become a mental health threat
 
welsh said:
Bob, I have heard that as well- semi-automatic fire is more accurate than fully automatic. With a big enough clip you can fire 30 rounds in a minute?

RealEagle said:
besides, show me a gundealer who would sell a firearm to middle easterner. i doubt you'll find a single dealer in the entire country who'd do that. rmember, dealers have the right to refuse sale for any reason!
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Boy that's a relief. I can trust in the good wholesome ethnic biases of gun retailers. With good faith, who needs law?
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::to Welsh:: Yes it is more than possible to fire 30 rounds in under a minute, as i have done this myself.::to Real Eagle:: As i have been saying, criminals dont have to try to purchase firearms legally you seem to think that dealers wont sell to people of middle eastern persuasion you are wrong, take the fact gun dealers that dont want to be seen as racist and will sell to suspicious people and the illegal gun market and you have terrorists getting guns. you are saying that the AK is a junk rifle, then why have they stood their ground in shoot-outs with police? ::to Murdoch:: it would be a very bad idea to put our right to bear arms under complete federal control, that would be an infringement on the 2nd amendment and would result in political and social chaos.
 
bob_the_rambler said:
::to Welsh:: Yes it is more than possible to fire 30 rounds in under a minute, as i have done this myself.
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It's also possible to fire 30 rounds or more in under a minute with post-ban 10-round magazines, big deal, it only takes you 3-4 seconds to swap the mag... that'd be a big pain in the ass for a machine gun (that often fire in excess of 600 rounds per minute, not 30), but it makes very little difference for semi-autos.

::to Real Eagle:: As i have been saying, criminals dont have to try to purchase firearms legally you seem to think that dealers wont sell to people of middle eastern persuasion you are wrong, take the fact gun dealers that dont want to be seen as racist and will sell to suspicious people and the illegal gun market and you have terrorists getting guns.
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gun dealers being afraid of looking like racists is NOT a fact!
maybe the jewish dealers will sell to anyone, cause jewish gunowners are the biggest gun nuts on the planet, but theyd also be the last people to arm potential islamic militants

now illegal gun market is a problem, of course, but even if there wasnt any black market, any machinist with a press, big vice, and a good drill can make his own AK rifle... its so simple many people do it... of course if youre a skilled machinist you probably dont have to earn your living with crime, unless youre one of those neonazi types, or if youre on terrorist watchlist... there could be underground gun shops set up in new york and other large cities where a lot of terrorists live that make ak-type rifles 24/7, and NO bans or regulations from ATF can stop them, all they'd do is make a lot of regular law-abiding folk very pissed off at the government... but hey, whatever makes you feel "safer", just dont come crying to me next time you need a gun and dont have any like those cops in north hollywood bank siege

you are saying that the AK is a junk rifle, then why have they stood their ground in shoot-outs with police?
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what police? what the hell are you talking about... or do you even know how shootouts go? its bad guys who try to run away, and the cops who try to pin them down until swat arrives, who are much better equipped to deal with the armed criminals... it doesnt matter how big your gun is, so long as you have lots of ammo and can shoot really fast, or better yet have full-body protection like a vest and a helmet (which swat does have)... there isnt any real difference betw ak rifle or any semi-auto handgun since they have the same average rate of fire... now MACHINEGUNS outclass anything short of rocket grenades
 
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