Happy 4th Of July Americans and Americanophiles!

[Big T]

Welsh, we've saved the world from three diffirent authoritarian and totalitarian regiems

Japan, Germany and the Native Americans. (I'm certain they would have turned out to be tyrants ).

I'm not sure you can say that you saved the world from the USSR when:
A) A good portion of it was not saved at all.
B) A good portion of it was never really threatened
C) The great job you guys did of minimising the threat (ie. by pressuring them to elevate the amount of military and, particularly, nuclear assets that they had).

Also, you weren't alone in saving the world from the Nazis, given how the USSR and Britain (in that order, probably) gave far more to the war effort than you guys. True, it wasn't (directly) your war so you had no responsibility to fight it, but that does not give you leave to extend "assisted in saving" to "Saving" the "world".

I will, however, give you the victory in the Pacific Theatre against Japan, as the US was the main Allied participant.

Much of this is centred around your definition of saving "the world".

Japan was primarily after China and South East Asia and Germany, Europe. I doubt, for instance, that either had any real designs on Saharan Africa, Antarctica or the Andes. They were much more limited plans. Sure, they may have, upon completion of their original plans, tried for a true world domination, but it wasn't the basis of WW2.

You might as well argue that you saved the world from the British in the War of Independence or from the Confederation during your civil war or even the Branch Davidians at Waco.

Now, obviously with that last example, I am taking the piss, but I think my point (that your phrase "saving the world" is somewhat inappropriate) should be fairly well, if inelegantly, conveyed.

 

[DJ Slamák]

I believe it should also be noted that what a country -- any country -- has done in the past hardly justifies its present actions. The "shut up about Gitmo (or whatever) cause WE saved you from Hitler sixty years ago" kind of logic simply doesn't cut it.

If the US is unpopular with many people, it's because of what it's doing now. It doesn't imply lack of gratitude for its past actions.

 

[Lazarus Plus]

Also, you weren't alone in saving the world from the Nazis, given how the USSR and Britain (in that order, probably) gave far more to the war effort than you guys. True, it wasn't (directly) your war so you had no responsibility to fight it, but that does not give you leave to extend "assisted in saving" to "Saving" the "world".

I will, however, give you the victory in the Pacific Theatre against Japan, as the US was the main Allied participant.

The problem with that is that before America became a combatant it was supplying massive amounts of supplies and wepoans to Britain, Russia and China. To look down on contributions that were VITAL to you own survival and state that we did not contribute as much as (!) Britain (!) is actually kind of insulting. I won't question that the USSR gave more in lives and material resources on it's part, but in no way could Britain have hoped to win without American aid. Would you have even been able to make the Normady landings without us? I don't know, but I kind of doubt it.

 

[Ratty Sr.]

The US saved the world from 3 authoritarian regimes? How's Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan 3? *waits for the 3rd* Anyhoo.

Soviet Union saved the world from Germany. Germany would have been defeated regardless of US involvement. USA saved the world from the Soviets, though.

 

[Lazarus Plus]

The US saved the world from 3 authoritarian regimes? How's Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan 3? *waits for the 3rd* Anyhoo.

Soviet Union saved the world from Germany. Germany would have been defeated regardless of US involvement. USA saved the world from the Soviets, though.

I don't know about that, man. There was an awful lot of aid coming from America, not to mention that Germany wasn't certain to lose before 1943...

 

[Big T]

The problem with that is that before America became a combatant it was supplying massive amounts of supplies and wepoans to Britain, Russia and China. To look down on contributions that were VITAL to you own survival and state that we did not contribute as much as (!) Britain (!) is actually kind of insulting.

This is true and, you are correct, something I had overlooked.

One has to question, however, whether the weapons were for aid or profit.

Also:

Britain Declares war on Germany: 3rd September 1939
Roosevelt signs Lend-Lease Act: 11th March 1941
US (sort of) declares war on Germany: 11th September 1941*
Germany Declares War on US: 11th December 1941
D-Day Landings: 6th June 1944

Quite a lot of time between these events, 18 months without the Lend-Lease act for instance, 24 months between our and your declarations of war.

So, no Britain could not have "done it" without the US, or certainly not in the way that it was done. But I don't think that you can claim anywhere near the influence that we had on the Western Front, or that the USSR had on the Eastern Front. That's not to mention the Africa campaign.


(*Orders US Navy & Air Force to shoot at German ships on sight.)

Note: Dates found from rather hasty Google search, may be incorrect. So sue me, I'm hardly a History Student.

 

[Lazarus Plus]

"On the Western Front"? We had as many or more troops fighting in the Second Front in Europe. No, we weren't an influence in the European theater on LAND until the Torch landings and the subsequent invasion of Siciliy and Italy in 1943, but our Air Force cemented the air superiority of the Allies over Germany.

 

[Brother None]

Roosevelt signs Lend-Lease Act: 11th March 1941
US (sort of) declares war on Germany: 11th September 1941*
Germany Declares War on US: 11th December 1941

All on the 11th?!?!?!?!?!?!!

9/11 conspiracy LOLOLOLOL!!!

Great going turning this into an America-bashing thread, by the way. The 4th of July should be about a lot of things, but not about bashing Americans anymore than the commeration of the end of WW II in Russia should be about bashing Putin's

John, I blame you, why can't you learn to speak on such subjects in a slightly less extremist tone, you Christihadist.

 

[Big T]

Great going turning this into an America-bashing thread, by the way. The 4th of July should be about a lot of things, but not about bashing Americans

Agreed, my apologies to any Americans reading.

I just kinda hate blanket statements like CCRs.

*Shrug*

 

[John Uskglass]

I don't really think Big T was being particularly anti-American, though I am probably defened to subtle insults because of years of AMERICA=NAZICA

Fine: we where instrumental in the defeat of three great authoritarian to totalitarian powers, and I am tired of getting so much shit because we're having anoother bicenteniall Red Scare.

Though, I would just like to point out that when we start looking a little authoritarian and Europe starts getting a little pissy, we are generally right; take the Rosenburgs or Sacco if not Vanzetti.

 

[Brother None]

I don't really think Big T was being particularly anti-American, though I am probably defened to subtle insults because of years of AMERICA=NAZICA

Fine: we where instrumental in the defeat of three great authoritarian to totalitarian powers, and I am tired of getting so much shit because we're having anoother bicenteniall Red Scare.

You didn't say which three yet.

By the way, most European powers were instrumental in the defeat of more than three great authoritarian or totalitarian powers than you. Simply because in our days, all powers were such powers. HAH!

 

[John Uskglass]

You didn't say which three yet.

By the way, most European powers were instrumental in the defeat of more than three great authoritarian or totalitarian powers than you. Simply because in our days, all powers were such powers. HAH!

Uh, Authoritarian maybe, but back in the day everyone and thier grandmother was Authoritarian. I can't think of a really Totalitarian regiem before Napoleon that Europe took down.

EDIT: More then three
Nazi Germany
Japan
The USSR
Imperial Germany
Italy
Iraq

 

[Brother None]

Afghanistan?

I mean, you said "instrumental", not "solo"

 

[Per]

Uh, Authoritarian maybe, but back in the day everyone and thier grandmother was Authoritarian. I can't think of a really Totalitarian regiem before Napoleon that Europe took down.

According to Wikipedia totalitarianism is a modern term, and not applied to anything pre-WWI.

If we're just counting Repelled Great Big Threats:

* The Persian horde stopped at Marathon and Salamis.

* The Muslim conquest stopped at Poitiers.

* The Huns and Mongols stopped by bleeding on them a lot until they turned and went back.

 

[Wooz]

Sacco & Vanzetti

*Kicks you senseless*

 

[John Uskglass]

Sacco & Vanzetti

*Kicks you senseless*

I said Sacco if not Vanzetti. Vanzetti was probably innocent of murder, but Sacco was pretty clearly guilty.

 

[DirtyDreamDesigner]

* The Huns and Mongols stopped by bleeding on them a lot until they turned and went back.

Done mostly by Croats...

Yay, we saved teh worldzorz LOLOL!!!11!!

 

[Elric]

Sacco was pretty clearly guilty.

Could you explain, please?

 

[Ratty Sr.]

Nazi Germany

Partially true. It would have been defeated without American interference.

Japan

Partially true. It too would have been defeated by USSR had America managed to sustain a status quo with Japan.

The USSR

True. Ironically, the greatest American military victory was accomplished without a single armed clash between Americans and their true enemy. The whole post-1943 WWII was a friendly race between two superpowers to conquer as much of the crumbling Third Reich as possible.

Imperial Germany

Not true. In 1918 Imperial Germany still had good chances of winning the war or at least sustaining a very prolonged status quo. It eventually capitulated due to deep economic crisis and internal revolution.

Italy

Same as Nazi Germany.

Iraq

Invading a relatively small middle-eastern country isn't commensurate with "saving the world" (assuming you are referring to Desert Storm). Why not also cite Korea and Vietnam, as those examples are just as (in)valid as Iraq in this context.

 

[Brother None]

Iraq

Invading a relatively small middle-eastern country isn't commensurate with "saving the world" (assuming you are referring to Desert Storm). Why not also cite Korea and Vietnam, as those examples are just as (in)valid as Iraq in this context.

I think he's referring to Gulf War II, not I.

In either case neither Korea nor Vietnam count, 'cause they lost Vietnam and Korea was a draw (if such a thing is possible in wars. To be more accurate; both sides lost)