Homosexuality and other unimportant Fallout-related stuff

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Did you think interviews were going to stop him? Then you're a fool, because Ausir is back with another round-up of Fallout-related tidbits on The Vault. This time, they seem to mostly deal with homosexuality, with a series of responses solicited by Jim Sterling's original piece on Gamefront.

First is Robert Yang at Radiator Design Blog:<blockquote>The argument that [all] gay video game characters should downplay their sexuality might be well intentioned, but is ultimately representative of the most dangerous kind of homophobia -- a homophobia wrapped in intellectualism, appearing "tolerant."

True, sexuality isn't the only thing that defines a person -- but for the vast majority of LGBT people, I would argue that it's a crucial part of personal identity. To insist that effeminate gay men are "camping it up" and should just "be normal" is homophobia. That's the same type of attitude that murdered Matthew Shepard -- he would've been fine if only he didn't act so damn gay around people!</blockquote>Followed by, you guessed it, Gay Gamer:<blockquote>The discussion is actually reminiscent of the discussions about Zevron that came up in this Dragon Age II post about LGBT content in games. While it's easy to sympathize with Sterling and the posters who are tired of the same stereotypes showing up in games, like Yang I think there's a tendency to treat flamboyancy (or campiness) as the problem, rather than the developers' lack of imagination, when all types of gay people can be compelling characters. Additionally, when people say that being gay is "no big deal," to me it always seems to come from the same fruitopia where people claim that they're allowed to say, "That's so gay," because it doesn't actually mean gay anymore.</blockquote>After Elton takes these articles as a basis to expand on another issue:<blockquote>However, neither writer tackle head on what I think is the fundamental flaw in the argument put forth by Sterling: namely that the problem with gay characters is that their identity completely revolves around their sexuality — as if heterosexual characters are somehow defined any differently.

Don't believe me? Then how many straight characters on television or in the movies (and to a lesser extent in video games) can you name that haven't been identified as straight at some point? I'm wagering it's only a handful and that it's either the ones deemed to be too "old" or "unattractive" to have a love life — or because the show is hinting they might be gay. </blockquote>And for those of you who didn't grab it when it was put for free for an error on the Xbox Marketplace Techland has a contest which has Dead Money as a prize.
 
The objections to the piece are reasonable as it does sound like he wants every character to be like Arcade Gannon and be almost closeted about their sexuality (from the sound of things), but I don't think that was his intention. His point, which the gay writers seemed to have missed, is that homosexuality should be treated like heterosexuality in games, which is to say normally. There are flamboyant homosexuals in real life just as there are flamboyant heterosexuals and both should be present in game, so I disagree with Sterling about that. That said, they should be in the minority.

After Elton said:
However, neither writer tackle head on what I think is the fundamental flaw in the argument put forth by Sterling: namely that the problem with gay characters is that their identity completely revolves around their sexuality — as if heterosexual characters are somehow defined any differently.

Don't believe me? Then how many straight characters on television or in the movies (and to a lesser extent in video games) can you name that haven't been identified as straight at some point? I'm wagering it's only a handful and that it's either the ones deemed to be too "old" or "unattractive" to have a love life — or because the show is hinting they might be gay.
This is a pretty ridiculous statement, being identified as straight or gay doesn't mean that said character's identity revolves around their sexuality. It's when the character is constantly talking about their sexuality that they completely revolve around their sexuality.

All in all, the message from the original article as I read it was that homosexual characters need to be written better. That's a message which I can't see a reason why any homosexual would disagree with.
 
Re: Homosexuality and other unimportant Fallout-related stuf

True, sexuality isn't the only thing that defines a person -- but for the vast majority of LGBT people, I would argue that it's a crucial part of personal identity. To insist that effeminate gay men are "camping it up" and should just "be normal" is homophobia.

I think this statement is patently ridiculous. If I see anyone dressed up like a peacock with bright blue hair and a rainbow t-shirt, I'm going to respect them less. The fact that it's usually homosexual males who define themselves by their sexuality doing it is irrelevant. I think anyone who defines themselves by their sexuality is stupid anyway: Strippers, the "pick-up artists" you see on TV, flaming gay men and lesbians with crew cuts in flannel jackets have all stripped away what makes them human in order to force you to take notice that they are different. Look at me, I'm going against the norm = there's nothing really interesting about me. There are plenty of homosexuals who can act reasonable and still have their sexuality be a large part of their personality.

If you don't act normal by the standards of the society in which you live, I'm not going to respect you. Homophobia has nothing to do with it. The end.

Edit: Fixed quote, looked like Username said it when it was some idiot.
 
Re: Homosexuality and other unimportant Fallout-related stuf

cunningandvalor said:
If you don't act normal by the standards of the society in which you live, I'm not going to respect you. Homophobia has nothing to do with it. The end.
I think you should go a bit more out. Meet more people. Exerpecialy "weird" people.

I mean no offense meant. But I dont like the combination "acting normal" and "society" because there really is no clear definition regarding it. Someone likes to dress him self like a idiot ? So be it.

ANd if you ask me society in general is more around double standarts. If anything.
 
Re: Homosexuality and other unimportant Fallout-related stuf

cunningandvalor said:
If you don't act normal by the standards of the society in which you live, I'm not going to respect you. Homophobia has nothing to do with it. The end.

Define "normal".
 
Re: Homosexuality and other unimportant Fallout-related stuf

Crni Vuk said:
cunningandvalor said:
If you don't act normal by the standards of the society in which you live, I'm not going to respect you. Homophobia has nothing to do with it. The end.
I think you should go a bit more out. Meet more people. Exerpecialy "weird" people.

I mean no offense meant. But I dont like the combination "acting normal" and "society" because there really is no clear definition regarding it. Someone likes to dress him self like a idiot ? So be it.

ANd if you ask me society in general is more around double standarts. If anything.

I one-hundred percent agree with everything you just said, but I think you missed my point: If someone wants to dress like an idiot, so be it = yes. Someone dresses like an idiot, is also gay and its homophobia = no.

My point was that this has nothing to do with homophobia. If someone dresses outside of the norm, "like an idiot" as you put it, I don't care (as it doesn't effect me) but I'm clearly going to have less respect for them than I would, say, someone in my office wearing a suit and tie, not making a lot of loud noise and performing their role.

The idea that people can act "weird" is their right, and I support them. The idea that those same people 'demand' the same respect as people who follow cultural rationale is incredulous.
 
Re: Homosexuality and other unimportant Fallout-related stuf

Thomas de Aynesworth said:
cunningandvalor said:
If you don't act normal by the standards of the society in which you live, I'm not going to respect you. Homophobia has nothing to do with it. The end.

Define "normal".

I don't need to, the societies of the world already have. That's why people who wear ridiculous costumes and make up with dye in their hair aren't elected to public office.
 
If you double post in this forum, I'm not going to respect you.
 
Wow, Im surprised to see how strong arguments and discussion this thread has popd up. I found myself thinkin how many debates of this depth were generated by the awardwinning writing of Fallout3...
 
There are flamboyant homosexuals in real life just as there are flamboyant heterosexuals and both should be present in game, so I disagree with Sterling about that. That said, they should be in the minority.

Wasn't the Camp Forlorn Hope doctor rather flamboyant?
 
Re: Homosexuality and other unimportant Fallout-related stuf

Crni Vuk said:
... I doubt a bank clerk going to work dressed like a punk will stay for very long.

Hmm, or vice versa. Hey, I just had this great idea for a new look for my band.

I think it's interesting how several posters here have, perhaps unthinkingly, assumed the viewpoint that in a 1950s post nuclear setting, LGBT behavior should exactly reflect the current norms, and criticize the game based on how much it deviates from that norm.

I forget how huge New Vegas really is; I'm deep into my second playthrough, both straight characters, and haven't even *found* the blatantly gay characters yet. Which SPECIAL attributes affect your character's gaydar? Perception and Intelligence, I would imagine...
 
I forget how huge New Vegas really is; I'm deep into my second playthrough, both straight characters, and haven't even *found* the blatantly gay characters yet. Which SPECIAL attributes affect your character's gaydar? Perception and Intelligence, I would imagine...

The Confirmed Bachelor/Cherchez La Femme perk.
 
The flamboyant ones are the most annoying so the less of them in games the better. That stuff doesn't really exist in Fallout, they act like everyone else. No one will put up with their attention whoring in a post apocalyptic world.
 
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