How about WWIV in Fallout universe?

[Hyun Jai Lee]

How about WWIV? like 'A Canticle For Leibowitz', after a long time since FO2, people rebuild civilization and army, divided into two or three factions. as they grow up they want more. eventually they conflict with one another.

What do you think of this idea?

 

[Roshambo]

The problem with that is that "World" in World War IV would have to be one where there is enough social interaction around, logically, the world. Hence why there are no World Wars before 1900.

Fallout, even 160 years after Fo2, would still not have anywhere near the infrastructure required to make it plausible for another world war, even by the fiction's standards. With fiction standards, you'll also have to go by what was set down before unless it is a logical change.

 

[Hyun Jai Lee]

(sorry, about my grammar and sentence. I am not good at english as well as you )

first, the word 'WORLD WAR'
sorry, I think I misused the word 'WORLD WAR'
Well, now I mean just 'war' and I think that
since there are many races (like mutants, human) in fallout universe, so the conflict, or war between them can be very interesting subject.

and since i'm not talking about global, world war. so think about fallout universe.social interaction and infrastructure? it has ' cities' like The Hub and 'factions' like mutants, human if we can consider races as factions. it even has 'REPUBLIC',
Cities, republics, nations GROW, don't they?

In the novel 'A Canticle for Leibowitz', it took 600 years for people to build space stations and launch nuclear missiles again since the beginning of the new civilization, 'second renaissance' (therefore, after 1400 years from the first nuclear war) but in fallout universe
I think well,160 years? is enough for factions to rebuild their armies
and have social interaction

OK, then
Do you think that there can be probability of war in Fallout universe? (like KKnD series)

oh, my. time to go to bed

 

[Roshambo]

Well, now I mean just 'war' and I think that
since there are many races (like mutants, human) in fallout universe, so the conflict, or war between them can be very interesting subject.

There already HAS been wars of sorts. NCR, the Master's Army, the Enclave, Vault City, The Brotherhood of Steel. They are all large factions in scope to locations, or the remains may still be about from previous incarnations of them.

There's always a conflict present in the Fallout storyline, between one city, another, differing peoples, or raiders. Fallout focuses less upon the theatrical aspects and more towards the social aspects in its style. The people, places, and such do have more impact upon the end of the game than the flashing sounds and grating graphics. Therefore, the PC's part in said war would be mostly diplomatic or in finding a side to be on and helping around the sides of the war but not be directly in it due to various storytelling methods. You do not see all of the Master's Army in Fallout, but you know that they are there in the setting, and that is what is important. It does lose a bit in translations, which is a pity and always happens.

As for the world of Fallout going back to some sense of civilization and then have a war...well, that's really not much of a post-apocalyptic setting, is it? The world has recovered to a point of having some sense of society, which Fallout 2 didn't really have yet except in walled cities.

Civilized enough to have garbage politics, though going into a full-scale war may be amusing, but it still doesn't really convey the feeling of a lost world.

 

[Hyun Jai Lee]

Lost world...

"Civilized enough to have garbage politics, though going into a full-scale war may be amusing, but it still doesn't really convey the feeling of a lost world."

(gee, don't know how to use quote)

well,I agree, You're right.

I think maybe we can expect some other fallout universe based 'war' game like Fallout Tactics 2 (maybe JA2 style gameplay?)

 

[PsychoSniper]

GOOD FUCKING GOD NO.

FALOUT CRAPTICS 2 IS A BAD FUCKING IDEA.

 

[Hyun Jai Lee]

CRAPTICS?

GOOD FUCKING GOD NO.

FALOUT CRAPTICS 2 IS A BAD FUCKING IDEA.

uh..pardon me? you mean "FOT 2 is BAD IDEA"?

well.. I have FOT, but haven't played yet.

is FOT that bad?

 

[PsychoSniper]

Yup, FOC sucks.

 

[DevilsAdvocate]

Well, we don't know which ending for Fallout 2 is canon, but assuming that they do the same thing as Fallout 1 (the best ending for every place), it's easy to see that there could be a sort of localized world war. I mean, I could understand that there would be a lot of tensions inside of NCR/VC if NCR ever tried to recruit a place like Gecko to their cause, and that would pull just about every city in the Fallout games into a war. That would be pretty much a world war in their eyes. I like the idea of that in the Fallout universe: whenever places try to rebuild and become "civilized", the inherent greed, bigotry, and shortsightedness in more civilized places causes them to just destroy themselves again.

 

[Briosafreak]

Well, now I mean just 'war' and I think that
since there are many races (like mutants, human) in fallout universe, so the conflict, or war between them can be very interesting subject.

and since i'm not talking about global, world war. so think about fallout universe.social interaction and infrastructure? it has ' cities' like The Hub and 'factions' like mutants, human if we can consider races as factions. it even has 'REPUBLIC',
Cities, republics, nations GROW, don't they?

The Van Buren project had plenty of this, but with a twist:

As for the world of Fallout going back to some sense of civilization and then have a war...well, that's really not much of a post-apocalyptic setting, is it? The world has recovered to a point of having some sense of society, which Fallout 2 didn't really have yet except in walled cities.

Civilized enough to have garbage politics, though going into a full-scale war may be amusing, but it still doesn't really convey the feeling of a lost world.

Actually in van Buren there was less technology and the society type bonds were crumbling, wich explained much of the tension and the conflits one would see in the game.

You could nuke everything in the end, causing some surprises...

 

[Gunslinger]

Good point, Rosh. Society would indeed have to progress quite a bit (since we've last seen in Fallout) for there to be a full-blown out war. The premise for the original, Pre-Fallout war was petrol. Naturally, with a good portion of the population dead, there's more of a supply than there is of a demand. There's no motive if you're too concerned eking out your continued survival in the post-nuclear world.

Plus, if we were talking about an international war, there isn't really a concrete notion of a nation for America, so it wouldn't be a real contender to be reckoned with. If things in other states are like what they are in California, then there's no real national cohesion. Granted, there's the NCR but thats just a pitiful republic of equally pitiful towns. In an international war, I imagine that Fallout America is at the same stage of preparedness as the colonies in pre-American Revolutionary War: there's no continental army and, with the apparent quiteness on Europe's behalf, there's no overt concern of invasion. Also, we don't really know how Europe is fairing. We know that China, being at war with America over oil, would be bearing the main brunt of nuclear attack but other nations probably would have been caught in the blast radius and fired their nuclear weapons in reprisals. But, once again using California as a basis, any center of military worth would have either been destroyed during the war or still guarded by automatic defenses. Of course, that's a gross generalization for the entire continent of Europe. As we have seen with the Enclave in California, its more than likely that private interests have their hands on some military technology. But my point is that mobilization overseas for an international war is dubious at best. In Fallout, we've encountered Vertibirds and Shi submarines but all of those were rare.

But I can see how factional differences within the cities of Fallout would lead to a small war, or at least a grand battle. But most of those would die out, I imagine, after the goal is met. For instance, a racial war occuring in, say, Broken Hills between humans and mutants would probably peak in the mass killing of mutants (or humans) in that area and then abruptly end. There'll always be anti-mutant ideology but I doubt that would be enough momentum to start a national war of mutants versus humans. The same thing would happen in a war for resources; one faction would just beat the other and take what they want and that would be the end of it, like Vault City taking over Gecko for its excess power in one of the FO2 endings.

But overall, a full scale war, whether it be on a national or international level, would be a dangerous thing considering all those nukes leftover.

 

[Linsky]

the introduction to WW1: wasteland war 1?

 

[Ratty Sr.]

Frankly, I don't think there is a chance for another world war in Fallout universe to occur. Not in a hundred years, not in a thousand years, not ever. Namely, the entire development of the modern human civilization is based on abundance of a single resource - oil. Since the basic premise of the Fallout setting is that oil becomes nearly depleted, which leads to massive resource wars, absence of this basic source of energy and chemicals means that another technological and industrial revolution cannot occur, simply because there is absolutely no viable substitute for oil. Einstein wasn't kidding when he said "I know not what weapons World War III will be fought with, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones." In the process of human evolution, humanity inconsiderately depleted every single resource it could get its paws on, effectively leaving Earth with relatively minor quantities of ALL resources (not just oil, but also ore, wood, water and just about anything you can think of), extraction of which is extremely difficult and energy-intensive. So not only would it be impossible for the post-nuclear humanity to restore the pre-war level of technological development, but even the copper age would become impossible to achieve! Pseudorecovery following nuclear apocalypse in the Fallout world is only seeming, as it is entirely based on what little resources, salvaged technology and undamaged infrastructure still remain in the post-apocalyptic world. For example, almost entire region where Fallout 2 takes place bases its economic development on cheap nuclear energy, courtesy of the Broken Hills uranium mine - which becomes depleted shortly after the game ends. As such places become increasingly scarce, humanity gradually and inevitably descends into new stone age - one that can never end. By shamelessly exploiting available resources without bothering to ensure alternatives and then nuking the hell out of civilization and thus destroying infrastructure and technology that could have been used to develop alternatives and ensure continuity of human progress, humanity enters an effective blind alley of development and suffers the fate of countless other species throughout our planet's history.

So even if there is another world war in the Fallout setting, that war will be fought with stones - as even sticks will be scarce.

 

[Colt]

*claps* I am glad to see someone else understands the fundamental problem with rebuilding civilization after something like the war in Fallout occurs.

Modern civilization is built on a couple hundred years of machine technology and that was based on 2000 years of older technology. The older machines create the newer machines, without the older machines there will be no new machines. Unless someone has stockpiled machinetools somewhere, with power, there will be no new renaissance. There will be no new and brave world in the wastes. As Roshambo said, a world lost.

Mankind reached the end of its playtime in Fallout. Oil truly was the lubricant of that machine. Instead of crunching down, and finding ways to not need it, they waited too long and were too petty. One game of Russian Roulette and Humanity almost destroyed itself totally. - Colt

 

[Jebus]

Wasn't fusion technology pretty abundant in the Fallout world? I don't remember if they found a way to replicate it yet, but I seem to vaguely remember they do (-it's been a while), and since fusion technology requires no expensive or rare resources, cheap and abundant power would help re-stimulate progress.

And even if they didn't, the restart of industrialization could start very easily: for a steamship, for instance, all you (theoretically) need is coal, iron and water. There are also other ways of producing energy: biogass, wind power, solar power, coal power, ... Society wouldn't be doomed - not at all. Hey, the earth's oil resources are going to be depleted in 50 years anyway - and saying humanity will revert back to the copper age when that happens seems rather exaggerated.

 

[Ratty Sr.]

You're missing the point, Jebus. Without oil, you can't get iron, you can't get coal, you can't get water, you can't get uranium and you can't get any of the rare materials needed to construct a solar panel or a fusion reactor. During the rise of modern civilization these resources were either depleted or nearly depleted, and what little remains of them is so difficult to extract that you need top technology to do so. With all available and easily-obtainable energy sources gone and all infrastructure destroyed, that can never be accomplished.

 

[Colt]

EDIT: Bah, Ratty posted as I was writing this. At least we're on the same thread, literally.


No offense but you don't get it. I want you to walk out into the woods right now and make me a working steam engine. Right now. All you get is an axe and a few handtools. Have fun.

And fusion? It doesn't matter if they have fusion. You still need something to power that and need a way to get the helium to fuse in the engine. The world will never run out of oil because it will simply become too hard or too costly to get it and other options will look better. I don't believe either Ratty or myself said our civilization would revert back to the copper age. One that has goen through what Fallout's has though... That's another story.

 

[Jebus]

You're missing the point, Jebus. Without oil, you can't get iron, you can't get coal, you can't get water, you can't get uranium and you can't get any of the rare materials needed to construct a solar panel or a fusion reactor.

1. Why would you need Uranium for anything?
2. Why would you need oil to get iron? They could start by simply re-smelting the millions of car wrecks that litter the land, actually.

With all available and easily-obtainable energy sources gone

Hey, biomass energy and wind power are pretty easy to obtain. Heck, even I learnt how to build a wind dynamo, and I only had two hours of physics in high school.
Also, fusion power takes nothing more that He, or, IIRC, Jodium. That's relatively easy to obtain, no?

No offense but you don't get it. I want you to walk out into the woods right now and make me a working steam engine. Right now. All you get is an axe and a few handtools. Have fun.

Ye, contrary to what you seem to believe I'm no stupid hick, Colt. I know which processes are involved in making steam engines - but if they can make space shuttles and submarines in the FO world, they sure as hell could make a bloody steam engine.

And fusion? It doesn't matter if they have fusion. You still need something to power that and need a way to get the helium to fuse in the engine.

IIRC, fission would be perfect for that kind of process. And they've got fission technology in the wastland, right?

The world will never run out of oil because it will simply become too hard or too costly to get it and other options will look better. I don't believe either Ratty or myself said our civilization would revert back to the copper age. One that has goen through what Fallout's has though... That's another story.

Jeezes Colt, you should stop taking what I write so literally, and try to understand the point I'm making.

 

[Colt]

1. Why would you need Uranium for anything?
2. Why would you need oil to get iron? They could start by simply re-smelting the millions of car wrecks that litter the land, actually.

1. Uranium powers most of the existing technology. If that technology breaks down, there is nothing left really.
2. You need something to burn at a high enough temperature to smelt iron ore, or in this case car chassis. You need to build at least a bloomery and use coal in that to smelt the metals. If oil was no longer in large supply then coal would be used wholesale to fire electrical plants and heat homes.

Hey, biomass energy and wind power are pretty easy to obtain. Heck, even I learnt how to build a wind dynamo, and I only had two hours of physics in high school.
Also, fusion power takes nothing more that He, or, IIRC, Jodium. That's relatively easy to obtain, no?

I'm not sure what you're meaning by "biomass" but I assume it's wood chips and the like along with animal dung. The former might be hard to come by as there isn't many trees around in the wastes last time I checked... The dung, well, there are brahmin.

For a wind turbine, to generate electricity, you would first need a proper spindle made out of some durable material to base this thing on. Then you would need to figure out how to get the proper metal, smelt it, and draw the wire and then wind it. Then there are the brushes, contact terminals, magnets, and all. Plus you'd need to figure out how to build a structure to mount it on. Since wood isn't commonly available, that means scrap metal and some way to construct the tower out of that which leads to more problems. Even if you're just building a windmill you have problems with gears and transmitting the power. This does seem the best option along with the dung for power though.

Fusion... The first and easiest step would be deuterium-tritium fusion mixed with hydrogen... Unfortunately this is radioactive and means the reactor is hot. You'd need to get the aforementioned materials somehow. If we're going with helium, you'll need to figure out how to set up a pumping station for natural gas and then separate. There are nuclear methods of producing it but they're not fun. If I recall correctly, Germany, of 1930s vintage, was having problems getting helium for their airships and that was why they used hydrogen instead: Hindenberg.

Ye, contrary to what you seem to believe I'm no stupid hick, Colt. I know which processes are involved in making steam engines - but if they can make space shuttles and submarines in the FO world, they sure as hell could make a bloody steam engine.

I never assumed you were a stupid hick, just that you might be realizing the implications of building a working steam engine that you could actually do something with. Are you going to get some large chunks of metal and just start filing the shapes down by hand? That's both inefficient and very inaccurate. The first steam engines had a bad habit of seizing and exploding.

IIRC, fission would be perfect for that kind of process. And they've got fission technology in the wastland, right?

I was attempting to point out that you need something to jumpstart the fusion reaction... And fission power could do that, however, it appears the remaining fission sources are being used up quite quickly and it would take a group of people like the Fascist Comrades Association (aka Bos) to get something like this started . All in all, it appears the Brotherhood really is the best last hope that we know of. They have machinetools and power but they mostly seemed to be sitting around in their power armor looking smug and talking dirty to each other.


Yes, I get the point your making. Ratty and I are simply making our own points that it's not so easy to jumpstart civilization again. - Colt

 

[Ratty Sr.]

1. Why would you need Uranium for anything?
2. Why would you need oil to get iron? They could start by simply re-smelting the millions of car wrecks that litter the land, actually.

1. Gee, I dunno? Nuclear fission, maybe? In Fallout world uranium is one of the most important resources. Listen to the Fallout 1 intro: "Only this time, the spoils of war were also its weapons - petroleum and uranium." All power plants you encounter in both Fallout sequels run on uranium slugs.
2. And how are you going to melt them, smart guy? By farting into them? Not to mention that those rotting, corroded wreckages are good for little but sitting there looking ugly.

Hey, biomass energy and wind power are pretty easy to obtain. Heck, even I learnt how to build a wind dynamo, and I only had two hours of physics in high school.

When you have no raw materials and barely enough plants and animals to feed yourself, building a windmill is kinda the last thing on your mind.

Also, fusion power takes nothing more that He, or, IIRC, Jodium. That's relatively easy to obtain, no?

Actually, it takes a bit more - namely, a fusion reactor, and a fission reactor to get the fusion reactor started.

Ye, contrary to what you seem to believe I'm no stupid hick, Colt. I know which processes are involved in making steam engines - but if they can make space shuttles and submarines in the FO world, they sure as hell could make a bloody steam engine.

They didn't make submarines and space shuttles - they salvaged them. Without proper maintenance, these vehicles will eventually decay and be rendered useless. And proper maintenance is kinda hard to provide when you have no tools, no means of producing tools, no materials, no means of obtaining materials, and on top of that, your vehicles require fuel that is more or less gone.

IIRC, fission would be perfect for that kind of process. And they've got fission technology in the wastland, right?

Not for long.