How about WWIV in Fallout universe?

Urm you do understand the meaning of premise, don't you? The premise of Fallout is that it's a vision of the future turned post apocalyptic as imagined by a 50's pulp sci-fi writer. Either the (fictional) writer is dreaming the Fallout universe or writing the Fallout story, as you play.
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No no no, I'm not arguing against that. I understand this part of the the Fallout setting, and I thought I'd referred to it many times. I'm not trying to dismiss it, now or ever. Please understand that. But to say it's strictly JUST that, it's like saying Fallout *is* 50's pulp sci fi, and I simply find more depth to it than that.

I think it's important to see how Fallout is looking at a 50's perspective of the future through a contemporary lense, with all the power of hindsight. Without an anchor in other times including the present, the emotions and issues of that pivotal era become isolated from current events (which is IMO how the Chinese and energy crisis fit in, for example, in place of the Soviets and the red scare). This is why the timeless quality of the Fallout setting is important to me. Do you disagree? I don't understand how it conflicts with ANY statements that have been made regarding the game's 50's premise.

Considering that this is the second time that you've tried to argue "real world" into this subject through whatever desperate backflip you try, I'm about to Vat the second attempt and prevent a third.
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*I* don't necessarily care to argue reality into a fictional world, that wasn''t my intention. I think it has it's place artistically speaking to be connected with reality, otherwise it would be completely meaningless. But in this case, I was merely referring to a Q/A in the Fallout Bible:

(reader)
...Was or wasn't there a nuclear winter? If not, why not? If so, why wasn't it mentioned before?...
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(chris)
Nope, I just assumed there was a nuclear winter and that was a bad assumption - I just assumed with hundreds of bombs flying around a nuclear winter was pretty inevitable, but I don't think one ever occurred in the Fallout universe....I'll make the assumption that the nuclear warheads used in the Fallout universe were of comparable tonnage to the nukes in the real world (early) 1950s era, in which case, many of them could have been used without causing a massive blackout. If someone out there with real nuclear warfare knowledge, however, can illuminate Evan and I, I'd appreciate it, and I'll make you the BIG WINNER for next time.
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Anyway, that was from p133 of the bible. They get around to some probable explanations around p180. In any case, apparently they found it relavent enough to include.

But I don't care to "argue" about this any more, in this thread or another, so I won't bring it up again.
 
jlamb said:
No no no, I'm not arguing against that. I understand this part of the the Fallout setting, and I thought I'd referred to it many times. I'm not trying to dismiss it, now or ever.
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Yet when you quoted me previously you replied as if you believed that I believed that the Fallout story had actually been written in the 50's. Do we really have to keep adding fictional or premise in every post?

jlamb said:
Please understand that. But to say it's strictly JUST that, it's like saying Fallout *is* 50's pulp sci fi, and I simply find more depth to it than that.
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No it's not just that, but that's the premise of Fallout, it's like the premise of Star Trek was Wagon Train to the Stars, each episode might have a different influence and contain references to various real life situations or easter eggs from other shows/movies but the premise never changed.
 
jlamb said:
No no no, I'm not arguing against that. I understand this part of the the Fallout setting, and I thought I'd referred to it many times. I'm not trying to dismiss it, now or ever. Please understand that. But to say it's strictly JUST that, it's like saying Fallout *is* 50's pulp sci fi, and I simply find more depth to it than that.
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Yes, by arguing repeatedly on the already specious point you hoped to somehow have. You seem to believe that anything can be excused because "all sorts of shit went into it". In the first game, the one with obvious direction behind it, the references actually fit into the style already set in the genre, setting, and much more. Many of the movie and book references aren't too far off from other elements in the setting, when properly applied in context, and with talent suitable material could be written in so that it suits the style - not be included for the hell of it.

I think it's important to see how Fallout is looking at a 50's perspective of the future through a contemporary lense, with all the power of hindsight. Without an anchor in other times including the present, the emotions and issues of that pivotal era become isolated from current events (which is IMO how the Chinese and energy crisis fit in, for example, in place of the Soviets and the red scare). This is why the timeless quality of the Fallout setting is important to me. Do you disagree? I don't understand how it conflicts with ANY statements that have been made regarding the game's 50's premise.
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Really? I count one Vatted thread, and the incessant garbage you've been trying to pander in the current thread. The pitiful excuses from one poorly made statement to the next is just becoming more laughable the more you try to edge in your newfound understanding of the setting aspects...slowly, and not very well.

The Fallout Bible was mostly written by the same clueless sod who came up with New Reno, and it had to be repeatedly corrected. Especially about the fleet of cars roving around.

*I* don't necessarily care to argue reality into a fictional world, that wasn''t my intention. I think it has it's place artistically speaking to be connected with reality, otherwise it would be completely meaningless.
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I will point again that this is fiction as depicted by...aw, fuck it, you're not even home at this point.

....because becoming a soldier genetically renders you and your offspring unable to grasp scientific and technical knowledge... and the Fallout world is clearly devoid of anyone with such skills, other than those maintaining nuclear reactors, installing dermal armour, building spacecraft and vertibirds, modifying power armour, creating stimpacks, etc.... ?
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Say it with me, FICK-SHUN! Learn what the fuck it means, learn what a setting is, learn the importance of backstory, and learn the different styles before you try and argue like the White Trash Ninjas. I really doubt I need to tell what the role of a soldier is commonly in science fiction, especially in said style period, but I suppose I should take the time and make it painfully plain for you? Sorry, I'm not going to try where years of public education seems to not have done much for you.

But I don't care to "argue" about this any more, in this thread or another, so I won't bring it up again.
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Also stow your dreck about guns unless you'd first care to learn about a certain faction in said Boneyards. "The state of American gun culture 120 years from the 50's is pure speculation and unless I'm mistaken there's no reference to that in FO or "period" fiction (if you're going by that)." is pure bullshit if you have played the first game with at least a fifth grade education.

As for this:

There are as many of the original team members citing Mad Max, the Simpsons, MST3K, or what have you as influences to Fallout, as there are references to the 50's. It is a fictional universe on a parallel timeline that was as warped and diverse as the designers needed it to be to fit their story, gameplay, and production schedule. THEIR ability to be flexible did a lot more for the "spirit" of Fallout than some narrowly defined setting ever could have.
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I again have to point out that the setting style has been pointed out to you. Even the Lead Art Designer had something to say about it, but keep on reading the Fallout Bible. I'm sure you'll find everything you want to know in there.

As for this thread, it looks like it is headed towards another split, with Orthrand again as the guest of honor in defining the point where stupidity started to leak into this thread, the point in which this topid will likely be split and Vatted. If you're not even going to try to educate yourselves about the setting, folks, the stupidity will be dipped.
 
Rosh, you make my head swim. I don't even see where we really have conflicting ideas on the subject. Vat me, ban me, split the thread, if it makes you feel important or something. Too bad, this a great site and interesting forum aside from your overzealous application of administrative privileges upon anyone who steps on your toes.

...not be included for the hell of it.
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Where the hell did I suggest that? Fallout 1 had many diverse influences that were unified under a fictional future of the 50's theme for very deliberate reasons, which I offered a perspective on in my last post. So far I've only seen you recycle the same sound bytes with no suggestion you have any idea *whY* Fallout has the story elements it does. Maybe we could discuss that.

Really? I count one Vatted thread, and the incessant garbage you've been trying to pander in the current thread.
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Yeah, you keep refering to these but can't seem to actually point out anything specific on where I'm disagreeing with you or even have conflicting ideas. How the hell do you expect me to respond to your posts when all you do is call me names, delete my posts, and make generalized statements with no evidence?! You seem to insist that if something wouldn't exist in 50's fiction it doesn't fit in Fallout, but it's not that simple. That's the closest I come to "disagreeing" with you. What the fuck are we even arguing about?!

Even the Lead Art Designer had something to say about it, but keep on reading the Fallout Bible.
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Um, YOU told me to read the Bible a while back, but I'm starting to get used to your contradictions.

Okay, could you quote exactly what statement of his you are referring to? Boyarsky's contribution to Fallout is brilliant, no doubt about it. The aesthetic he designed played a big part in Fallout's setting. Which doesn't really change that it is a fusing of 50's sci fi, Mad Max, current affairs, and a bunch of other stuff. And yes, all under a 50's sci fi blanket. How much to we have to spell this shit out? Can we get back onto the thread topic?


I don't know how many ways I can say this: I understand the Fallout setting style. Give me one fucking example of where I demonstrate a lack of understanding the future of the fifties setting or even disagree with you, and HOW that example does so.. Preferably in a private message so this thread can get back on topic.
 
The thing is that Rosh is trying to get you to think about the setting. I mean, really, think about it. Think about it real hard.

How do any of the other influences that were mentioned factor into the Fallout universe? Aside from the few Easter Eggs and bullshit random encounters in Fallout 2 did anything like The Simpsons, or MST3K factor into the setting?

How did Mad Max factor in? If you put on a leather jacket you could recruit Dogmeat without giving him Iguana-on-a-Stick. The concept of the Khans and raiders were also loosely inspired by Mad Max. But unlike Mad Max, the barbarians of the wastes are not mobile.

And how many current affairs factored into Fallout, really? Russia isn't a factor in the geopolitical scene prior to the war. The only other thing would be the emphasis on dwindling resources, but geologists have been saying we'll run out of oil in the next 20 years all throughout the century. Its hardly a new concept.

So aside from China being the only threat to American power, what other modern concerns factor into it? The European Union? EU's been a dream of political thinkers for decades, and its creation had been planned throughout the 20th century. It can't be that hard to put two and two together and figure out that there's going to be some consolidation.

One instance of contemporary future vision doesn't instantly negate the overall sentimentality of the games, which was that it was a 50's future vision.

But perhaps China would factor into even that? Perhaps the Chinese of Fallout were a bunch of Space Chinese which had dominated Russia with their wicked Eastern mysticism and Oriental treachery.

Oh, and just in case you didn't get it before. Easter Eggs like the television in the Fallout intro? They fit the post-apocalyptic setting. That's what they're supposed to do, you see. It makes them good Easter Eggs by blending in with the setting and rewarding those with a discerning eye.
 
Energy crisis, genetic engineering, and discrimination are three pretty major issues in Fallout. I don't know why YOU think they replaced more logically 50's themes with these. My interpretation is that by presenting this subject matter (amongst others) in the style of 50's apocalyptic fiction, Fallout confronts contemporary issues and events with the niavete descending into paranoia/xenophobia which was characteristic of that era.

I might be wrong, maybe it is just supposed to simply be a rendition of 50's sci fi where half the content is "related easter eggs" altered to fit the setting. But that strips it of most of what made it so provocative to me. If there's other explanations I'd certainly like to discuss them.

geologists have been saying we'll run out of oil in the next 20 years all throughout the century. Its hardly a new concept.
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That may be, but wasn't a theme in fiction at the time and certainly wasn't a political issue. The US had a huge surplus of food and fuel. The energy crisis is distinctively a 70's thing.

How did Mad Max factor in?
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Well... the whole aesthetic was obviously a fusion of 50's and Mad Max, in addition to other material (Boyarsky also noted Brazil and City of the Lost Children, the influence is clear if you've seen those). Most of the guns and equipment before energy weapons and combat armor are practically right out of Mad Max or based on items from the last couple decades: spears, metal and leather armors, the SMG is a Heckler&Koche, the assault rifle is an AK, there's the bizarrely placed Desert Eagle, even the plasma pistol is a Glock; C4 was invented in the 60's, list goes on. Of course everything is STYLIZED to fit the aesthetic.


All of this is rather irrelevant to the thread topic. The original discussion was on the feasibility of nations rebuilding enough to end up in another world war. There are clearly problems with a "world war," at least one that involves the US, because even in a rebuilt society traversing the ocean would be prohibitively difficult. Then there was some interesting discussion of how quickly--if at all--society could be rebuilt in the Fallout universe.

Several people considered it an impossibility because of circumstances resultant of a nuclear war, and I was merely trying to offer a different perspective based on modern knowledge of nuclear weapons' effects, when I was told that such information is irrelevent to the Fallout setting.

I took Rosh's advice to more deliberately research science fiction from the 50's to understand the Fallout setting. In "Science Fiction: an Illustrated Encyclopedia," the author identifies a new theme in 1950's post-catastrophe stories that went against the grain of traditional SF:

"Until the 1950's, most American genre SF - with the possible exception of Asmiov's Foundation Trilogy - was written in the assumption that history was linear... Post-Catastrophe stories usually assume - although they do not always make the assumption explicit - that history is cyclical. It is a wheel on which progress will be followed by catastrophe, which will be followed by interregnum, which will be followed by the rise of a new civilization. The most famous genre example of this, and the most explicit, is Walter M. Miller's A Canticle for Leibowitz... which made it almost impossible for any SF writer to escape the juggernaut-wheel of the cycle."

Interesting since Canticle was one of the biggest influences cited by Tim Cain, the lead writer of Fallout. Clearly the first 2 games take place in the interregnum, which in literature of the time is described in the same book as usually being a romanticized "Ruritarian network of principalities." Sounds right up our alley.
 
A rudimentary civilization springing up from the wastes with a modicum of technological force wasn't the issue, though. The issue was whether or not Civilization could reach pre-fall levels in a relatively short amount of time.

The conclusion of many was that it could not, due to the lack of infrastructure. Infrastructure would have to be re-built from the ground up. Possibly even re-developed.
 
A WORLD War wouldn't be likely unless you turned the clock forward about 250 years from Fallout 2, but war between the factions would be. However, it would be very intersting if the factions of the west coast had to fight East Coast guys or something. I'll have to think on that.

Another good idea would be a war in which the people in California have to fight other nations or factions across the sea.
 
uziel said:
Another good idea would be a war in which the people in California have to fight other nations or factions across the sea.
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The sea meaning the Pacific Ocean, or are you aiming at those prissy Florida bastards from across the gulf?
 
Either one would work. I didn't like Florida. A nice place to visit (Sorta) but you wouldn't want to live there.
 
I know I wasn't involved in this conversation , but I couldn't help but put my 2 cents in. A "World" war doesn't have to be fought with tanks, artiilery, guns, and aircraft. It can be fought with anything.
 
Wars of a World War scale require fast means of mass-transportation and mass-commmunication, otherwise that World War (note the singular, it's one World War, not multiple wars happening all around the world) would be completely unfeasable as one war. Communication between different warring factions would be difficult at best and any arrempts to involve more of the world will fail, because there is no way for any party to advance very quickly, and therefore little means to involve more than a few countries. At largest it would be one continent, and even that is extremely difficult.

Also, a war without explosives would have a much smaller impact on the world than one with solely because of the destructive power involved.
 
I would like to point something out in case someone missed it. The furthest that we'd fall without oil would be back to 1400-1600 AD levels of tech. Coal is one resource that is actually still plentiful, right now, primarily because it pollutes so bad. So we could go back to that.

And if coal ran out, then clearly what few trees are left will start returning as the planet slowly cools, thanks to depleting CO2 reserves in the atmosphere that are not being added to by new pollution. So we could still power forges through wood burning, which would at least leave us capable of sustaining a Romanesque civilization.

Not as bad as the copper age like people were saying. Might take a while, but it certainly would not fall that far and then STAY there.
 
Just jumping in to the conversation here, two cents and all.

My main problem with a "world war", or any other kind of local or regional conflict, being the main plot throughout the game is that it would be boring, and it would go against the precedent set by the other games. Although my knowledge is largely limited to Fallout 1 (I found the fights painfully boring in fallout 2), they were all about survival, ie., saving the vault, preventing humanity frombeing replaced by supermutants, the GECK.

Hordes attacking another town with pitchforks and .22's over... what? Wood? Prostitutes? Even fighting over uranium doesn't have a compelling end-game. Additionally, who would you shoot with your plasma rifle? A general? China? It's too mundane, honestly. And the world being threatened by nuclear weapons again seems just stupid.

So no matter the possibility of such a thing occuring, it would have to limited to the background at best.
 
Gravedigging across the universe... On the site of NMA... Under captain Kharn... (repeat endlessly).

:P
 
What I don't understand is how someone can read through threads at least three months old (heheheth, say that fast three times). Someone has too much time on their hands...
 
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