How about WWIV in Fallout universe?

[Ekarderif]

Actually, it takes a bit more - namely, a fusion reactor, and a fission reactor to get the fusion reactor started.

IIRC, Power Armor have self contained fusion reactors that have enough fuel to run 100 years. No fission would ever be necessary provided that there's a fusion reaction nearby to "jump" another one. Fusion is truly a self-renewing process (okay, not truly as you still need fuel for it but you know what I mean). As for power plants, I have no clue why they don't salvage a Power Armor or 2 to find the inner workings and convert it into a power plant. Maybe because people want it all for themselves. In any case, it'd be possible to survive off fusion alone. It's just highly unlikely because of the inherently greedy nature of mankind.

and on top of that, your vehicles require fuel that is more or less gone.

The car in Fallout 2 ran on micro fusion cells. See, more fusion .

 

[Colt]

Yes... And those fusion power packs are made for the power armor and not made to put out the power made to kickstart a fusion reactor. They are pre-fall technology. - Colt

 

[Bradylama]

Unless a Writer's Convenience like a mutant plant that has the same potency as oil to infrastructure comes along, Ratty and Colt have it pretty much down.

The Europeans would have killed each other by now. Assuming the French, British, and the Russians didn't destroy the entire continent, hatred from the Nation-State wars would have survived the Apocalypse. The Germans would still hate the Poles, the Dutch the Danes, and what have you. Enough hatred to last until one faction comes out on top of the shit heap that is now Europe.

The only people that would have survived the apocalypse intact would have been those that were already living in 3rd world conditions. Not exactly the conditions for a re-building of post-fall civilization.

There's still the opportunity for a re-building of civilization and humanity, but the technology required would have to be re-developed. There aren't enough people around capable of reverse-engineering post-fall technology to make any impact. Why do you think the Brotherhood was dedicated to preserving technology? If they had the ability to reverse-engineer and develop new technologies they sure as Hell wouldn't have remained the xenophobes they were.

Bottom line, the possibility still exists to re-build civilization, but not anytime soon after Fallout 2, if even ever. Sure as Hell long after the last Supermutants have died out, or any semblance of the cultures present in Fallout 2.

 

[Orthrand]

They dont have it down. Plastic can be made from plants and milk.
Iron steel recycled from cars etc. Also i would like to add you can smelt iron with a clay furnace.
Also all power bar Hydrogen + Fusion + Natural workks off radiated heat therefore heatsinking / gouls can be used to smelt iron from reactors. Dont kid yourself there tek wouldnt be too hard to rebuild.
All the bullets around are evidence of manufacture going on. The brotherhood has machine tools + workshops. Zinked/ aluminium+titanium amalgum tools last for hundreds of years. Rubber can come from rubber trees in short humans could recycle + grow all that was needed. The wasteland lacks not reasource but will shown perfectly by haw easily Tandi set up a state of 700,000 a lot if most of the population was wiped out during the war.
Also in reply to back engineeering there actually seem to be more % of people in the population that understand the tech than noe besides when you look at at only a couple of hundred people in every country know how it really works. Maintaining/ repairing wouldnt be too hard + the brotherhood have allready omproved pre war + are introducing it into California lso another possible reason for NCR existing.

 

[Bradylama]

Plastic can be made from plants and milk.

Look at Junktown. Now look at The Hub. Do these look like communities capable of producing plastics to you? Were there even any trees in the original Fallout? I know there were in Fallout 2, but that was in the mountainous, rural region of California, where the nukes wouldn't have done as much damage. Let alone, whether or not any of them are rubber trees.

How many people have the knowlege to smelt iron in a clay furnace? You've got a world that's grown so accustomed to industry and higher tech that the vast majority of people probably could barely cook their own food, assuming this was the same 50's future vision where people would have dehydrated instant meals. Maybe a ghoul might know, but its not very fucking likely.

All the bullets around are evidence of manufacture going on.

Wrong again. The 1950's was a long time before the big assault weapon scare of the 90's. Assuming this, the United States would have had a significant gun culture by the time of the war, and weapons and ammunition were probably in no short abundance. You also had some chemists and smithies like the ones in Adytum that could recycle shells.

Which brings me back to my earlier point, in that's ALL THEY FUCKING KNOW HOW TO DO. Everybody in the Wastes was working off of the knowlege of pre-fall technology. Not bronze age metal smithy.

While the Brotherhood may have a bunch of tools and user manuals, they're descended from Military Men. Grunts. Not technicians, not fucking scientists (they killed them, remember?). Everything about the Brotherhood is dedicated to the preservation of technology. Why? Because they don't have the ability to develop new ones. Power Armor is a pretty valuable commodity. There isn't a whole lot to go around, so the only ones that could wear it were Paladins and guards. If they could make more power armor the Brotherhood would have been a helluva lot more aggressive.

Tandi was able to make a Republic out of wasteland communities because of broadcast technology and the extensive trade between them.

If the humanity of Fallout is going to attain the level of Industry of even pre-Victorian era, it will take centuries of re-development.

 

[Orthrand]

Three generations plastic only a convenience as an example + the 3rd war doesant start in 1950's it start around 2077 as said in the bible timeline. Also military use many skilled personnel intelligence analysts radio operators mechanics (with nuclear power skills to repair Power Armour) Also strict diciplie would ensure that teachings would be larnt for anyone born in the base and new recruits would probably have it drilled into them (court marshell culture idf you will) Also as stated in on the Brotherhood deveopeda new laser pistol.

Also the nukes droped in Fallout were mostly tactical or bunker busters as in west tek the Chinese obvously wanted to invade after.

Power armour is arguably the most sophistiacated batch production could be achieved within a lifetime. There is allready a production culture of making metal armour and myron batsh produces jet for a very large number of people.

Also not TV dinners on ghouls shoulders Tycho. Etc + there are always those on the outside of society who do not have this also the computerising wasnt a thing to be proud of for the people of america as the car in the start advert proudlt advertises no computer parts obiously Mr Handy Didnt drive the chrysler.

The Encalve and any other organisation for safekeeping would have manufacturing plant GECK's possibly or tools along the same line as your dinners.

But processes performed by determined unskilleds to do scientific processes just produce a lot lower yilds ie 60% normal to 10-15% but still producable.

Most importantly if we adhere to your views NCR is unsustainable Dried Brahmin Shit cant produce all the nitrogen for that only tha Haber Process Can.

Lastly Brotherhood paladin has 1 machine he uses it to create parts and builds another. At a later date he and comrades build 2 more then four then eight ets etc. Also dont discount other places ithink Norway/ Sweeden one of those types of countries had nuclear shelters for all of its population.

 

[Bradylama]

Three generations plastic only a convenience as an example + the 3rd war doesant start in 1950's it start around 2077 as said in the bible timeline.

And? Where do you think we get our plastics from? It sure as Hell isn't corn, I can tell you that.

Its petroleum. We've just started looking into corn as an alternative source for plastics, let alone all of the other petroleum products modern industry relies on to work.

How is a sci-fi writer from the 1950's going to know that you can create plastics through plant fibers?

Also military use many skilled personnel intelligence analysts radio operators mechanics (with nuclear power skills to repair Power Armour) Also strict diciplie would ensure that teachings would be larnt for anyone born in the base and new recruits would probably have it drilled into them (court marshell culture idf you will) Also as stated in on the Brotherhood deveopeda new laser pistol.

Developed a new laser pistol from pre-existing parts. What you fail to understand is that the Brotherhood can't expand because they aren't obtaining any new resources. That's right. They aren't getting any. There's no way for them to get any.

How would they? You think they can just strip mine for iron?

The nukes dropped in Fallout weren't tactical nukes or bunker busters, either. The writers were working with the preconception that the nukes used during the war would have 50's era potency. Los Angeles is a mass grave. You don't get that kind of shit with tactical nukes. The vault was able to survive because it was built underneath the city, so it would have easily survived an air burst from an ICBM.

And what are the Chinese going to invade anyways? The Americans were practically knocking on their door. They knew that a nuclear exchange with America would have lead to them being bombed back to the stoneage, but they did it anyways.

making metal armour

Made from Scrap metal.

myron batsh produces jet

Which is made from fungus grown in brahmin shit.

Both of these things require components and ingredients which are in no short abundance, and easily accessible. The brotherhood can't just get all of the alloys, semiconductors, and reactors they need for new Power Armors on their own. Its not like these parts can be found anywhere in the wasteland.

Also not TV dinners on ghouls shoulders Tycho. Etc + there are always those on the outside of society who do not have this also the computerising wasnt a thing to be proud of for the people of america as the car in the start advert proudlt advertises no computer parts obiously Mr Handy Didnt drive the chrysler.

Not sure exactly what you're saying, here, but that car would have been produced under the precept of a retro automobile culture. Who's to say that they didn't also manufacture it with no computer parts in order to avoid it being rendered useless by a nuclear EMP?

America was in the grips of nuclear fever. The reason so many people didn't find their way to the Vaults, as was stated in the bible, was that they didn't take the repetitive air raid sirens seriously.

This would be the prime environment to market a "nuke proof" automobile.

The Encalve and any other organisation for safekeeping would have manufacturing plant GECK's possibly or tools along the same line as your dinners.

Which means... nothing. The GECK made an environment habitable. It didn't build a city from scratch.

 

[William J Shimmin]

Just thought i'd mention , Europe would still be a very active place. I know lots of the military positions would have been in rubble but UK as it is an island would be in a great state due to no one actually being able to get there without the materials to build a bloody boat.
And if USA was to attack China they would not win , no offense but the Chinese have far too many men and their technology may not be as advanced but they would eventually beat the USA.
And a bit of info on the other nations would be cool.

 

[Bradylama]

And if USA was to attack China they would not win , no offense but the Chinese have far too many men and their technology may not be as advanced but they would eventually beat the USA.

Guffah. Occupying China may have been out of the question, but the war started because China wanted our oil in the first place. There was no prize to be had in Beijing.

Just thought i'd mention , Europe would still be a very active place. I know lots of the military positions would have been in rubble but UK as it is an island would be in a great state due to no one actually being able to get there without the materials to build a bloody boat.

Have you ever seen the movie Threads? Or The War Game?

 

[Orthrand]

America would would win because they had power armour which the chinese did not which means that 10 soldiers can take out hundreds of troops A.K.A walking tank fool. also you fail to take into account Americas superior technology inc power armour. The FO bible also says that America had invaded china and was winning thats why they launched the missles . I SAY AGAIN FOOL.

 

[Roshambo]

Bombs, not missiles, and they were not just bunker busters. In fact, given the state of the nuclear tests, I doubt that bunker busters were used since they do not have a practical nuclear application. You seem to have trouble understanding that this is first and foremost fiction as depicted by a science-fiction comic writer, with several other influences, from a certain time period. Figure it out, quick.

 

[Dove]

Yep, no bunker busters. The Glow had some mention of it as well, it said something about hundreds of bombs hitting the same spot, and barely puncturing it, but just enough to destroy the facility's effectiveness. There were so many bombs that it irradiated the earth to such a high degree, where it would have taken only one or two penetrating warheads to destroy the entire facility.

And screw other nations. The setting of Fallout is the U.S. Period. Go play the Fall, or one of the European Fallout mods.

 

[bob_the_rambler]

I would like to see more of the U.S. though.......Arizona mabe?

 

[Orthrand]

Buncker busters were shown by west tek only a bunker buster could have dine that any other bomb would just blow a round crater not a bore hole. Also that doesant hold up either one bomb burns the hat of sun at core over 4000 degrees centigrade that would melt any element not possible to withstand as the sun and as the sun's created all elements ergo must all be able to be unmade by it. Also the glows radiation could have been caused by a single bomb they dont have to be uranium it could have been cobalt which cause massive fallout enough to be detonated in the atmospher and then drirt over a land mass around the size of England killin everyone on it.

(The war started in 2077 not 1950 thats when the trouser of time like split occured)
Also their nuclear technology is also in advance of our timelines maily because they were developing it more than us (shown by micro fusion reactors.) So their nukes may not have been missleated but they were probably a lot better. Just cause they dont have apple mac or the silicone micro chip doesant mean their other technology isnt that advanced. For instance the vetibird would need computer assistance to aid the pilot therefore micr engineered vacuum tubes and suc which are quite complex engineering feats.

Also read the fuckin Fallout bible it was done by the people who created Fallout.

 

[jlamb]

The writers were working with the preconception that the nukes used during the war would have 50's era potency. Los Angeles is a mass grave. You don't get that kind of shit with tactical nukes. The vault was able to survive because it was built underneath the city, so it would have easily survived an air burst from an ICBM.

Early fifities at that, which means most of them would be kiloton-range yield and a handful of megaton weapons. Most of these would be targeted at military installations, where high-redundancy is used (as we saw with the Glow), which suggests that most of the rural world would not be directly affected. Since according to the excerpt from the Fallout Bible below there wasn't much of a nuclear winter (supported by reader research several Bible installments later) this indicates that there ARE still natural resources on the planet surface. As you pointed out, there is in fact forest in northwestern U.S as we see in F2. One would think that with organized, extensive trade (like that of the NCR), SOMEONE could go out and use the stuff as fuel (for use in smithing furnaces, for instance).

From the Fallout Bible: "...I just assumed there was a nuclear winter and that was a bad assumption - I just assumed with hundreds of bombs flying around a nuclear winter was pretty inevitable, but I don't think one ever occurred in the Fallout universe. As for why not, I don't know enough about nuclear warfare at the moment to say why not - I'll make the assumption that the nuclear warheads used in the Fallout universe were of comparable tonnage to the nukes in the real world (early) 1950s era, in which case, many of them could have been used without causing a massive blackout. If someone out there with real nuclear warfare knowledge, however, can illuminate Evan and I, I'd appreciate it, and I'll make you the BIG WINNER for next time."

Wrong again. The 1950's was a long time before the big assault weapon scare of the 90's. Assuming this, the United States would have had a significant gun culture by the time of the war, and weapons and ammunition were probably in no short abundance. You also had some chemists and smithies like the ones in Adytum that could recycle shells.

The state of American gun culture 120 years from the 50's is pure speculation and unless I'm mistaken there's no reference to that in FO or "period" fiction (if you're going by that).

According to the dialogue with Miles, he can make gunpowder using chemicals he acquires from the wastes (brahmin dung and fungus again) or from "Hub merchants," which implies that resources could be coming from SOMEWHERE. Smitty the blacksmith can make and repair tools, and cast bullets. Making new brass casings that would work in pre-war firearms without jamming them would be next to impossible without machinery, but this is right in the middle of L.A. which is little more than rubble (muzzle loaders should be no problem even in the worst conditions in FO). There's no telling what could be accomplished in more habitable areas. The situation implies to me that the KNOWLEDGE is still out there (if not there seem to be books on science, repair, and firarms in the most random places ), and that human inventiveness can overcome. Maybe not in southern CA which would be one of the worst places to be, but somewhere in the country.

How many people have the knowlege to smelt iron in a clay furnace? You've got a world that's grown so accustomed to industry and higher tech that the vast majority of people probably could barely cook their own food, assuming this was the same 50's future vision where people would have dehydrated instant meals. Maybe a ghoul might know, but its not very fucking likely.

Considering the decay of world resources leading up to the war, there would probably be some people developing an interest in antiquated skills. There is of course the abundance of written material on the subject, and simple trial and error over the course of decades and centuries. Rediscovering the process of melting down metals with a crude furnace is really not an incredible leap. Otherwise I don't know how you would explain away the blacksmithing going on in the gameworld.

While the Brotherhood may have a bunch of tools and user manuals, they're descended from Military Men. Grunts. Not technicians, not fucking scientists (they killed them, remember?).

....because becoming a soldier genetically renders you and your offspring unable to grasp scientific and technical knowledge... and the Fallout world is clearly devoid of anyone with such skills, other than those maintaining nuclear reactors, installing dermal armour, building spacecraft and vertibirds, modifying power armour, creating stimpacks, etc.... ?

We should also bear in mind that we can not necessarily base assumptions on what is MISSING from the gameworld, because I'm sure that technical/budget restraint during Fallout's development is responsible for what is NOT in the gameworld as much as deliberate planning. The future of the 50's thing is the strongest theme aesthetically (where it's most important IMO) but Fallout isn't exactly 100% consistent with that anyway in many cases, and the developers cite a lot of other influences. Just something to keep in mind when considering FO world physics.

 

[Orthrand]

I agree with the above however most were not kilaton as said in the Fallout 1 Manual also think about it. Also they did develop an interest in simplified technology towards their worlds end shown by the chrysler proudly proclaiming it has no electronic components at all.

Also everyone get over the idea that they are all les technologically powerful than us when the split civilization is actually further along in timeframe than ours and had better energy technology than us they just failed to implement it in time.

 

[requiem_for_a_starfury]

Also everyone get over the idea that they are all les technologically powerful than us when the split civilization is actually further along in timeframe than ours and had better energy technology than us they just failed to implement it in time.

Not less powerful, just different but you're missing an important point. The war didn't really take place in 2077, it didn't really take place at all. Nor did Fallout 2 happen 80 years after Fallout, they all took place in the 1950's in the imagination of a 1950's pulp sci-fi fiction writer.

So the technology is as far along as the writer imagines it and the bombs are comparable to the payload of the 50's because he didn't imagine they could get any more powerful.

 

[jlamb]

Not less powerful, just different but you're missing an important point. The war didn't really take place in 2077, it didn't really take place at all. Nor did Fallout 2 happen 80 years after Fallout, they all took place in the 1950's in the imagination of a 1950's pulp sci-fi fiction writer.

No. They written in the late 90's by a bunch of people who unless I'm mistaken weren't even around in the 50's. The aesthetic and much of the setting is "future of the 50's," but to be completely fair it is the 90's looking at the 50's looking at the future, including references to everything in between. Call that contorted, I just think it lends a kind of timeless significance to the story (and a great degree of creative license).

There are as many of the original team members citing Mad Max, the Simpsons, MST3K, or what have you as influences to Fallout, as there are references to the 50's. It is a fictional universe on a parallel timeline that was as warped and diverse as the designers needed it to be to fit their story, gameplay, and production schedule. THEIR ability to be flexible did a lot more for the "spirit" of Fallout than some narrowly defined setting ever could have.

That said the Bible states that the bombs were probably relatively low tonnage like that of the EARLY 50's. Can't argue with that direct statement. The Bible also acknowledges that little if any research was really paid to the effects of a nuclear war, nor was it ever really defined in the game world. They even asked for fans to provide background info to settle the matter. They seemed to go with the currently accepted scenerios. Which means mild nuclear winter, a decent chunk of survivors (amidst pandamoniom and plague nonetheless), and there are still large expanses of the earth that aren't directly affected. So there are parts of the country with something to build on, maybe just not much in southern CA which was hit hard as we can see from FO1 and 2.

 

[requiem_for_a_starfury]

No. They written in the late 90's by a bunch of people who unless I'm mistaken weren't even around in the 50's.

Urm you do understand the meaning of premise, don't you? The premise of Fallout is that it's a vision of the future turned post apocalyptic as imagined by a 50's pulp sci-fi writer. Either the (fictional) writer is dreaming the Fallout universe or writing the Fallout story, as you play.

 

[Roshambo]

Urm you do understand the meaning of premise, don't you? The premise of Fallout is that it's a vision of the future turned post apocalyptic as imagined by a 50's pulp sci-fi writer. Either the (fictional) writer is dreaming the Fallout universe or writing the Fallout story, as you play.

I could even point out for jlamb's benefit, again, that Boyarsky has specifically commented on this subject. I would suggest that some attempt be made to try to understand what those weak validations jlamb used were - easter eggs that might have some relation to the setting, or something else they put in for some reason. Trying to validate ignorance of the setting background based upon those is just absurd.

Considering that this is the second time that you've tried to argue "real world" into this subject through whatever desperate backflip you try, I'm about to Vat the second attempt and prevent a third.