How are some people maxing out ALL skills?

[Kashrlyyk]

...
I'd hardly call that 'minimal forethought.'

Yes, it is overkill. YOu don´t need that much. All you need to know is there are a lot of books, bobbleheads, up to 23 skill points per level up and perks that basically raise all but two skills by 15%. With the exception of the knowledge that there are a lot of books, everything else is experienced with the tutorial or seen in the manual.

 

[roggles]

I think the point people were trying to make is that in the original Fallout sometimes you had to sacrifice even necessary skills in favor of other skills, therefor you were unable to do every single thing, it required more than one playthrough to get everything, and therefor replay value of F3 is very low.

You can do everything in FO2 in playthrough, I am fairly sure. You need to put points into repair, science (a lot), doctor, unarmed, speech, traps (to kill Bishop) and I think lockpick. With buyable books this is certainly doable.

But yeah, I agree that in FOO it's much more clear cut what to increase.

 

[Kashrlyyk]

I think the point people were trying to make is that in the original Fallout sometimes you had to sacrifice even necessary skills in favor of other skills, therefor you were unable to do every single thing, it required more than one playthrough to get everything, and therefor replay value of F3 is very low.

You can do everything in FO2 in playthrough, I am fairly sure. You need to put points into repair, science (a lot), doctor, unarmed, speech, traps (to kill Bishop) and I think lockpick. With buyable books this is certainly doable.

But yeah, I agree that in FOO it's much more clear cut what to increase.

And you needed to know how many skill points you need in those skills, so that you don´t waste them. That is not in Fallout 3 anymore.

 

[ferrety]

It's also worth noting you can easily max out all important stats in F03 without so much as consulting a FAQ or even trying that hard.

Uhh, no it isn't. It's very difficult to find every bobblehead without resorting to a guide, and the careful planning required to maximize your skill points throughout the game requires forethought as well. That is, of course, not including finding all the books requires, which is a considerable portion of them, again almost impossible without a guide of some sort and certainly not without 'even trying that hard.'

It requires just as much, if not more, forethought and planning than it does to get those two items I mentioned.

Where in the world did I talk about finding bobbleheads? I think i've got like 4 bobbleheads. I'm level...12 or so. My lockpick is 100, and my science and repair are almost there. There is no way I won't have science, repair, small guns, and lockpick maxed out within a few levels. I have not used any skill enhancing perk (the one that increases skill points, or the one that doubles the value of books).

I didn't even start with int 10 (think i started at 7), though I have abused that 'intense training' perk and now have int 10.

I only ran into one quest that required medicine, but i solved it a different way (rescuing the town doctor). By the end of the game, i'll likely have medicine near max anyway.

So... what are you talking about? Are we playing the same game? I'm not even -trying- and this game is easier than pie.

 

[Phil the Nuka-Cola Dude]

How is an item you get after finishing the game relevant?

Because the argument in which it was a counter to claimed that NO amount of metagaming would allow you to max out every skill in fo1/2/tactics... which is exactly what that book does. The fact that you have to destroy the oil rig to get it doesn't negate that, because you can still play the game afterwards.

Not defending beth's poor choice to oblivion-ize the skills, just sayin'.

 

[Barbalute]

It's also worth noting you can easily max out all important stats in F03 without so much as consulting a FAQ or even trying that hard.

Uhh, no it isn't. It's very difficult to find every bobblehead without resorting to a guide, and the careful planning required to maximize your skill points throughout the game requires forethought as well. That is, of course, not including finding all the books requires, which is a considerable portion of them, again almost impossible without a guide of some sort and certainly not without 'even trying that hard.'

It requires just as much, if not more, forethought and planning than it does to get those two items I mentioned.

Where in the world did I talk about finding bobbleheads? I think i've got like 4 bobbleheads. I'm level...12 or so. My lockpick is 100, and my science and repair are almost there. There is no way I won't have science, repair, small guns, and lockpick maxed out within a few levels. I have not used any skill enhancing perk (the one that increases skill points, or the one that doubles the value of books).

I didn't even start with int 10 (think i started at 7), though I have abused that 'intense training' perk and now have int 10.

I only ran into one quest that required medicine, but i solved it a different way (rescuing the town doctor). By the end of the game, i'll likely have medicine near max anyway.

So... what are you talking about? Are we playing the same game? I'm not even -trying- and this game is easier than pie.

So, you're level 12. I'm going to assume that all the bobbleheads you found were skill bobbleheads, and that you had 10 int at every level, since I don't know how early you made it 10. I'm also going to assume every skill starts at 20, which is higher than it does normally but I'm not positive what it is so I'm going to tilt it in your favor a bit. There are 13 skills in the game with 100 points each, which equals 1300 total points.
13 * 20 (starting) = 260 points
12 * 20 (level 12 @ 20 skill points per level) = 240, + 260 = 500
4 * 10 (bobbleheads) = 40, + 500 = 540
Even with 8 more levels at 20 skill points a piece, you'd have a total of (540 + 160) 700 skill points.
I recall someone saying there are 40 skill books for each skill, if you found half of them (which would still require very extensive exploration), you have (20 * 13 = 260, + 700) 960 points to spend, which isn't 1300.

EDIT: Ah, you said maxing out all important skills. I read it as maxing out all skills, my apologies. It still depends on what skills are important to you, though.

 

[Roflcore]

It is? I don't think so, since we already pointed out that some of the skills, if not all, are utterly useless. Sure, you can say maxing barter is important, but uhm..it isn't. You don't need it all, in no situation.

 

[Barbalute]

But it is helpful. For some people, it may be important. Again, in this case important is subjective.

 

[Roflcore]

Important? subjective? After 2 hours you have so much stuff any point in barter is a waste. Unless your goal is to collect as many caps as possible (you don't have any chance to spent them though) barter is useless for everybody.

 

[Barbalute]

It depends on how you play the game. I'm playing it on hard, with several mods that make the game considerably more difficult. I haven't found myself overburdened with caps so far, because most of my money goes to repairs and as many stimpacks as I can afford.

So yes, I do raise my barter so I can afford things. And yes, I do find it a useful skill, and therefore important.

 

[PaladinHeart]

Instead of starting with 10 intelligence, I find it to be more effective to start with 9, lose the 2 skill points in favor of not wasting a SPECIAL point, and go to [spoiler:32e9d39ac5]rivet city science lab[/spoiler:32e9d39ac5] before you hit level 3.

Of course you wouldn't know that unless you've already played the game once.

I completed the game today. Going to just ignore the main quest on this playthrough and see how how I can get all my skills (except for unarmed, but I might...). I left Strength and Agility at 1 because they just didn't seem all that important to me. 10 lbs per point of strength seems somewhat lacking IMO. What else am I going to use it for? Although I am considering nerd rage.. (9 free points!). As for agillity... well I might want to wear some power armor, and the -2 agility would mean less if there's only one point I can lose... Then again, power armor weighs 25 lbs more than it helps you carry, so what's the point of wearing it?

 

[Phil the Nuka-Cola Dude]

I'm using the mod which brings F3 back to the original STR/Weight values (25lb per point). An interesting side effect is that with the +2 strength, power armor effectively carries itself.

You might want to consider raising unarmed instead of melee if you're going for a hybrid playthrough; as the deathclaw gauntlet appears to ignore armor, which I imagine is invaluable for dropping enclave (Wouldn't know, I'm melee).

 

[Kashrlyyk]

......

So, you're level 12. I'm going to assume that all the bobbleheads you found were skill bobbleheads, and that you had 10 int at every level, since I don't know how early you made it 10. I'm also going to assume every skill starts at 20, which is higher than it does normally but I'm not positive what it is so I'm going to tilt it in your favor a bit. There are 13 skills in the game with 100 points each, which equals 1300 total points.
13 * 20 (starting) = 260 points
12 * 20 (level 12 @ 20 skill points per level) = 240, + 260 = 500
4 * 10 (bobbleheads) = 40, + 500 = 540
Even with 8 more levels at 20 skill points a piece, you'd have a total of (540 + 160) 700 skill points.
I recall someone saying there are 40 skill books for each skill, if you found half of them (which would still require very extensive exploration), you have (20 * 13 = 260, + 700) 960 points to spend, which isn't 1300.

EDIT: Ah, you said maxing out all important skills. I read it as maxing out all skills, my apologies. It still depends on what skills are important to you, though.

With comprehension you have to double the skill points from books. So 20 books for all skills is then 520 skill points!! The total is then not 960, but 1220. He might find some more bobbleheads and take skill increasing perks or educated.


There are 25 skill books per skill.

 

[Roflcore]

It depends on how you play the game. I'm playing it on hard, with several mods that make the game considerably more difficult. I haven't found myself overburdened with caps so far, because most of my money goes to repairs and as many stimpacks as I can afford.

So yes, I do raise my barter so I can afford things. And yes, I do find it a useful skill, and therefore important.

remove the mods and barter becomes obsolet again. so no, the skill is pretty pointless. If you consider mods, which I use heavily, much more skills become actually useful, but everybody is talking about vanilla normally. and at that, maxing is not a problem.

 

[ferrety]

EDIT: Ah, you said maxing out all important skills. I read it as maxing out all skills, my apologies. It still depends on what skills are important to you, though.

Barely. Certain skills in vanilla FO3 are... simply not important. Sure, Joe might decide it's 'important' to him, but the base gameplay design renders him wrong.

Case in point - barter. I'm no packrat, and I leave almost everything behind. I've still got a locker full of valuable junk, more ammo (on my person) than an armory, and enough caps to buy any luxury item I want, such as the med station for my apartment that renders all healing items and anti-radiation items moot.

Case in point - medicine. There are so many healing items around (not even including water sources) that increasing medicine is of no import. There has only been one problem I've run into that requires it (Big Town) but I accidentally solved it by rescuing the town doctor. So, unlike lockpick and science checks, there was a way around this.

I haven't touched anything combat except small guns, and honestly, I was slaughtering everything with a low small guns too. I'm only raising it because i'm rpging an Eastwood man with no name character and he should have it. Doesn't need it though.

Ive raised repair only so I can combine items in my inventory easier since I only go home when my valuable items fill my inventory. I'm rich beyond rich and I leave almost everything behind. Repair really isn't needed though.

 

[PaladinHeart]

Judging from the bobbleheads and rumored 25 books per skill, that means you'd just have to get 40 skill points per skill, correct?

Maximum possible (ideal with int bobblehead, losing 2 skill points due to automatic level 2) would therefore be 426 skill points. This lets you put about 32 points into each skill. Only 8 points needed, and most skills start higher than 10.

This means you'll be playing through most of the game with average skills, but will eventually end up with 100 in everything. What happens, I wonder, if you gain a level and have 100 skill points in everything already?

Although I imagine I'll be getting to level 20 sooner than I'll be getting all those bobbleheads and books. (especially since I only know where 7 are and don't want to cheat to find the other 13).

 

[Ausdoerrt]

This means you'll be playing through most of the game with average skills, but will eventually end up with 100 in everything. What happens, I wonder, if you gain a level and have 100 skill points in everything already?

If you remember, it's a game-breaking bug.

 

[gregor_y]

All i can say everygame needs tweaking and fixing so wait for some serious patch...

1 thing im pissed much is Charisma is useless i always had 10 charisma in F1&2 it was so funny with 10 int and high speach...

 

[Ausdoerrt]

^ Charisma is not useless!! It gets you more loot!!

 

[UncannyGarlic]

It requires just as much, if not more, forethought and planning than it does to get those two items I mentioned.

It requires minimal forethought and a FAQ and is easier to accomplish than getting a Bozar and PA in Fallout 2.

Also note that those aren't necessarily indicators of 'good open world design,' in fact, they're examples where open world design falls down. Acquiring among the most powerful items at level two is almost certainly not what the developers intended. In fact, being able to pickpocket the Bozar was almost a glitch if I remember, because practically everyone else actually held their gun so you couldn't do that.

I'd say that how you got power armor wasn't a flaw but that stealing was broken in Fallout 1, 2, and Tactics due to being a dice roll. Still, Power Armor was overpowered compared to other armor (I didn't think that it was over powered for the endgame) but having a bozar and power armor didn't completely break the game, it just made combat a lot easier. Fallout 3 allows you to max every skill easily and effectively max (enough to beat every check) every skill even easier. Regardless, getting such items in Fallout 2 requires metagaming (a FAQ or prior knowledge), maxing out or effectively maxing out in Fallout 3 does not, though it does speed it up.

Because the argument in which it was a counter to claimed that NO amount of metagaming would allow you to max out every skill in fo1/2/tactics... which is exactly what that book does. The fact that you have to destroy the oil rig to get it doesn't negate that, because you can still play the game afterwards.

Not defending beth's poor choice to oblivion-ize the skills, just sayin'.

I'd forgotten about it but I consider it the same as using console commands, cheat inputs, or debug mode; yes it's a part of the vanilla game but it's still circumventing the system the game puts in place. Besides which, it's an intentional game breaking prize you get as a reward, many games have them and they almost always break the game by design.