How should an RPG be? Freeroam for ever like Fallout 3?

[Sander]

I think it would be interesting to do a genuinely even-handed comparison here. I guess it would depend on what you think a dungeon crawl technically involves, but I don't remember that much more forced dungeon crawling in FO3's main quest. If you are going to count the overworld map travel, then all three of the games have dungeon crawling just to get from point A to point B.

I'm not counting overland travel.
Some forced dungeon crawls in Fallout 3:

- Escape from Vault 101 (although this isn't really a dungeon crawl as it's relatively short and you don't do much killing)
- Get the communications disc from the Museum of Technology (not really forced since you can skip it, but part of the normal main quest)
- Killing the mutants inside the Jefferson Memorial
- Escaping from the Jefferson Memorial with the scientists
- Getting the GECK from Vault 87
- Escape from the Enclave base

Also, combat is everpresent and almost every area is filled with hostiles you need to kill or otherwise bypass.

 

[Public]

In jefferson Memmorial you HAVE to kill all the mutants, so James (your dad) and his scientists can get there.

 

[M-26-7]

Fallout 3 is filled to the brim with Dungeon crawls, much more so than the previous games (and calling the rat cave or Necropolis dungeon crawls is somewhat silly, and also largely optional).

Fallout 3 consists of lots and lots and lots and lots of dungeon crawls, both outside in the wastes and throughout the main storyline.

I think it would be interesting to do a genuinely even-handed comparison here. I guess it would depend on what you think a dungeon crawl technically involves, but I don't remember that much more forced dungeon crawling in FO3's main quest. If you are going to count the overworld map travel, then all three of the games have dungeon crawling just to get from point A to point B.

Dungeon
: a dark usually underground prison or vault
Crawl
: to move or progress slowly or laboriously
from Webster's
"A dungeon crawl is a type of role-playing adventure in which heroes navigate a labyrinthine environment, battling various monsters and looting any treasure they may find."
From Wikipedia
So from these we can gather a very precise definition of what a dungeon crawl is. And with it, we can quickly find that you're wrong to call traveling in Fallout 1 and 2 "dungeon crawling". You can argue, but at this point you'd really only be arguing semantics.

 

[Public]

You can argue, but at this point you'd really only be arguing semantics.

And everyone will be laughing at you.

 

[Sander]

Okay, cut out all the spammy one-liners, Public. You're getting on my nerves and almost never adding any substance to a topic.

Dungeon
: a dark usually underground prison or vault
Crawl
: to move or progress slowly or laboriously
from Webster's
"A dungeon crawl is a type of role-playing adventure in which heroes navigate a labyrinthine environment, battling various monsters and looting any treasure they may find."
From Wikipedia
So from these we can gather a very precise definition of what a dungeon crawl is. And with it, we can quickly find that you're wrong to call traveling in Fallout 1 and 2 "dungeon crawling". You can argue, but at this point you'd really only be arguing semantics.

Semantics are a pretty important point, you know.

 

[ScottXeno]

Just a personal opinion, but here's what I think an RPG (non-jRPG, that is) should consist of;

A solid character creation format. Have some sort of system that is tested, proven, and works like intended. Don't have arbitrary attributes and skills, everything should actually mean something and affect the way you use said skill/attribute.

An aside, but character development is always nice, that is, physical appearance, hair, eyes, age, clothing, whathaveyou. Not necessary, though I do enjoy customizing how I look.

I want a deep spiraling story that flows. I don't necessarily believe the game should be strictly linear, I enjoy choosing where I go and what I do, but I want a deep, involved story that really propels me forward. That means deep meaningful dialogue, interesting, well thought out NPC's, and awesome locations that make me want to see more and more.

Enjoyable combat. Look, this is basically a standard no matter what sort of video game you are playing, unless it's a puzzle type of game. The combat is so essensial, if you are making a first person shooter, fine, do the first person shooting well. Same goes for turn-based, tactical, side scrolling, whatever. In the case of an RPG, I want it to be turn based. I prefer it to be. I am not knocking things like real time with pause, those can be fun, and I am not knocking real time either, one of my favorite games is KHII, and that was all real time.

If the game is very well developed, with a deep, powerful story, well thought out NPC's, quests that not only suit the environment, but change things, interesting locations, and at least explains itself in a reasonable way, I'll like it. Two of my biggest gripes about Fallout 3 are the fact that the quests change absolutely nothing, except for a few responses, and then everyone goes back to how they were, and that the game constantly presents unbelievable things and never does a decent job of explaining why things are as they are. I don't mind suspending belief, but explain why I should in your universe.

 

[Dionysus]

I'm not counting overland travel.
Some forced dungeon crawls in Fallout 3:

- Escape from Vault 101 (although this isn't really a dungeon crawl as it's relatively short and you don't do much killing)
- Get the communications disc from the Museum of Technology (not really forced since you can skip it, but part of the normal main quest)
- Killing the mutants inside the Jefferson Memorial
- Escaping from the Jefferson Memorial with the scientists
- Getting the GECK from Vault 87
- Escape from the Enclave base

Also, combat is everpresent and almost every area is filled with hostiles you need to kill or otherwise bypass.

But by your own admission, some of these "forced" areas aren't really forced. A similar list from FO would include: The cave outside 13, 15, the Necropolis tunnels, and Mariposa. The majority of the MQ areas had dungeon crawling. The Cathedral was the big exception. I'll admit that FO3 doesn't have something that matches up to the cathedral, but the overall difference isn't a big as you appear to be suggesting. I think that FO3 has more action, but it's not like FO was a straight-up adventure game.

 

[Sander]

]But by your own admission, some of these "forced" areas aren't really forced. A similar list from FO would include: The cave outside 13, 15, the Necropolis tunnels, and Mariposa. The majority of the MQ areas had dungeon crawling. The Cathedral was the big exception. I'll admit that FO3 doesn't have something that matches up to the cathedral, but the overall difference isn't a big as you appear to be suggesting. I think that FO3 has more action, but it's not like FO was a straight-up adventure game.

Fallout never revolved around dungeon crawling, Fallout 3 does.

Again, look at that list: that list I made was over half of the main quest. And significant parts of the rest of the plot also revolve around combat, with basically only Vault 112 and finding out about your Dad in Megaton being the exceptions.

4 of those areas are completely obligated and are simple dungeoncrawls.
In Fallout, the Mariposa Military Base wasn't just a straightforward dungeon crawl, and in fact almost all of it could be skipped by getting captured and facing the Lieutenant alone.
Vault 13 doesn't deserve the label of dungeon crawl (it's just a bunch of harmless rats you can run past), and Vault 15 could be skipped.

That leaves just Necropolis, which was pretty small too, and could theoretically be skipped (although this won't happen often, as you need to get the extension from the Water Merchants and destroy the Cathedral and Military Base within 100 days).

So, that's a difference between 4 rather big and pointless forced dungeon crawls in Fallout 3, versus one forced dungeon crawl in Fallout 1 that isn't nearly as large as the dungeon crawls in Fallout 3.
Yes, that's a very big difference.

It gets a lot bigger when you realise that almost all of the content in Fallout 3 consists of dungeon crawls. Yes, there's a lot of locations out there. Almost all of them are dungeon crawls, with only a few exceptions, most of which lead to dungeon crawls.
It's what the game revolves around.

I never claimed that Fallout didn't have any dungeon crawls at all, although there are very few, but that Fallout 3 makes dungeon crawls everpresent and the focus of gameplay. And really, it does. The Wasteland, the biggest part of the game, is absolutely filled with them.

 

[Toady]

You need to understand that Fallout 3 is the latest tragedy in gaming where Bethesda takes the most recent version of the Gamebryo engine, generates an enormous amount of geography for it, and sells it to their bribed game reviewers as a sandbox RPG. This glorified tech demo is shipped out so that 12-year-olds with Xbox 360s with gamer tags like "xXsNiP3RXx" can invite their caffeine-charged friends over and exclaim "lol omg" over headshots and thievery. "I'm going to kill this chick and take her clothes! lol omg"