I can hardly believe this... (US environmental policy)

Yucca Mountain is not really in anyone's back yard.

Regardless, I would not want a waste repository in my back yard. Nor would I want one in yours. However, if your back yard represented one of the best of all possible locations to place such a sight, I would understand the right of the government to take that land on behalf of the will of the people. Wouldn't like it, but I'd understand it. That is why Democracy is often called the Tyranny of the Majority. And to bastardize Churchill, it is the worst form of government save all other forms of government tried to date.
 
All I am saying is that one has to decide this from case to case. Cant just lump them all together.
 
DammitBoy said:
Environmentalists = tree-hugging, commie, pinko-fag, left wing loons
Well, maybe. Still there are some serious reasons to be cautious. I'm living near the Jaslovske Bohunice (50 km); where was some big accident on a nuclear reactor back in 1977. Very disturbing event, I can tell you.
 
I'm interested in what you said, Johnny. It seems the problem stems from several sources, after all. Do you think nuclear is a viable long-term solution to replace coal or other fossil fuels? Having experience in the domain certainly makes your opinion more worthwhile than anybody else's in the thread.

Also, ''euro arrogance''? Man, you do that on purpose don't you. You don't actually want to be taken seriously.
 
valcik said:
DammitBoy said:
Environmentalists = tree-hugging, commie, pinko-fag, left wing loons
Well, maybe. Still there are some serious reasons to be cautious. I'm living near the Jaslovske Bohunice (50 km); where was some big accident on a nuclear reactor back in 1977. Very disturbing event, I can tell you.

I agree, Russia has proven that slavs can't be trusted with nuclear energy. Even France does it better, for christ's sake.

Ilosar said:
I'm interested in what you said, Johnny. It seems the problem stems from several sources, after all. Do you think nuclear is a viable long-term solution to replace coal or other fossil fuels? Having experience in the domain certainly makes your opinion more worthwhile than anybody else's in the thread.

Also, ''euro arrogance''? Man, you do that on purpose don't you. You don't actually want to be taken seriously.

That's funny, since I said the exact same things johnny ego said, earlier in this same thread - not that many posts ago.

Clearly, your bias is showing. I guess you need a spoonful of sugar with your facts, to help make the medicine go down. Sorry, I don't care about your feelings.
 
DammitBoy said:
I agree, Russia has proven that slavs can't be trusted with nuclear energy. Even France does it better, for christ's sake.
I'm not talking about a Russia. Did you knew so one of the Slovakian scientist has developed a device, which is used in a uranium enriching process even today? Heh, I'm sure you know it, because you are a man of the facts. :roll:
Also, there are well known accidents even in USA, on a much modern devices; so who can be trusted more, dude? :)
A human failure is a human failure. Very dangerous thing, regardless of a nation or a state. That's what we are talking about, right?
 
Ilosar said:
I'm interested in what you said, Johnny. It seems the problem stems from several sources, after all. Do you think nuclear is a viable long-term solution to replace coal or other fossil fuels? Having experience in the domain certainly makes your opinion more worthwhile than anybody else's in the thread.

Also, ''euro arrogance''? Man, you do that on purpose don't you. You don't actually want to be taken seriously.

First, some disclaimers. I have been out of the nuclear power game for well over a decade, and my direct experience was confined to ship-board military reactors. Technology has changed quite a bit in the ensuing decades. Not that it matters much in the US, because most of our reactors were designed in the 70s.

Second, I don't claim to be an expert on US domestic energy policy, so my opinions are strictly my own.

With that said, no, I do not think nuclear will replace fossil fuels any time in the near future. US regulatory policy is unlikely to change considerably without substantial political pressure. To generate that pressure, we would need a prolonged period of very expensive oil. Think somewhere in the neighborhood of at least $150 - $200 per barrel, coupled with significant declines in supply, and sustained over the course of a year or more.

However, we aren't likely to get there for a variety of reasons. One is that in a sustained market of $150 a barrel for oil, other fossil fuel technology starts becoming economically viable. The two most likely sources are some variation of the Fisher Tropsch process for coal liquification, and oil shale extraction. These processes can both produce significant quantities of fossil fuel, so quantity is not an issue. They aren't cheap, but they are cheaper than converting our entire infrastructure to an alternative system.

The next easiest change to make would be a conversion to some sort of LNG. Again, price determines feasibility. This was very politically popular about three years ago in the US, the last time we faced severe shortages and high prices for gasoline. However, the political momentum fizzled in the face of the world-wide economic crisis, crude prices returned to historic levels.

The third obstacle relates to politics as well. It is in the vested interest of the oil exporting countries to see that oil stays 'cheap' compared to the alternatives. The turmoil in the Middle East stays reflective of that fact. Speculation drives oil prices up, OPEC members start to panic and make promises to adjust for any production gaps, oil starts falling again. Still higher than it was, but always low enough to ensure that it is still the cheapest energy transport medium available.

Which brings us to the fourth obstacle: energy storage. We still do not have a medium of energy transport that is as dense, as stable, and as cheap as fossil fuels. Battery technology has come a long way in the last ten years, but it still fails in terms of expense and energy density. Wind energy is great while it is windy. Solar is great while it is sunny. However, we are severely lacking in an efficient storage medium for keeping any excess energy for when it is dark and still.

For me, it all comes down to money. Nuclear is wonderful in terms of low emissions energy source, but the waste management issue will keep it from being a truly long term solution until it is resolved. Lack of a cheap, efficient storage medium limits the effectiveness of any alternative means of production. Politics and the comparatively low price of oil don't make radical changes very likely. So short of a technological breakthrough I cannot predict, I don't see things changing beyond the incremental approach for the next 30 years, much as has been over the previous 30 years.
 
Of course not, Valcik. French, slavs, negros, ''brown people'' and liberals are all inferior vermin to the superiority of the hard-working, supremely intelligent and pure-hearted American. Booh-yah.

@ Johnny: thanks for the insightful post. I just have little faith in nuclear technology myself because of the stories I heard about their misuse in France. Some plants here or there must not be a problem, but converting the majority of energy to it sounds simply unfeasible and slightly dangerous to me, considering the massive amounts of waste plants powering the US would create. I am not sure just digging holes, filling them with concrete and putting the waste in it is an effective solution considering their longevity, but maybe I am wrong.
 
Ilosar said:
I could have used your tactic of ''search it yourself, bro'', but here you go;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greenhouse_gas

Cumulative emissions
Over the 1900-2005 period, the US was the world's largest cumulative emitter of energy-related CO2 emissions, and accounted for 30% of total cumulative emissions (IEA, 2007, p. 201).[47] The second largest emitter was the EU, at 23%; the third largest was China, at 8%; fourth was Japan, at 4%; fifth was India, at 2%. The rest of the world accounted for 33% of global, cumulative, energy-related CO2 emissions.

ok, now what i want you to do is break those down by % including natural phenomenon.
 
Ilosar said:
Of course not, Valcik. French, slavs, negros, ''brown people'' and liberals are all inferior vermin to the superiority of the hard-working, supremely intelligent and pure-hearted American. Booh-yah.

That's just mean, hurtful and almost entirely not true. You know we're not all white guys thumping our bibles at the klan rally right?

Who fucked up Chernobyl? I'll give you a hint: it wasn't americans, frenchmen, black people, or brown people.

Inferior design baby. Cry me a river.
 
Ilosar said:
@ Johnny: thanks for the insightful post. I just have little faith in nuclear technology myself because of the stories I heard about their misuse in France. Some plants here or there must not be a problem, but converting the majority of energy to it sounds simply unfeasible and slightly dangerous to me, considering the massive amounts of waste plants powering the US would create. I am not sure just digging holes, filling them with concrete and putting the waste in it is an effective solution considering their longevity, but maybe I am wrong.

You're welcome, but don't oversimplify. There are no proposals to 'just dig holes and fill them with concrete'. The Yucca Mountain proposal site is one of the most geologically stable sites in all of America. It is engineered to a minimum 10,000 year standard. You could stand on top of Yucca Mountain for an entire year and receive somewhere in the neighborhood of a quarter millirem of radiation exposure from the site, vs. the 150-200 millirem of background radiation exposure from our friend, the sun. The projections are that from years 10,000 - 1,000,000, that number rises to a whopping 1 millirem.

The alternative is continued on-site dry cask storage. The issue with dry cask storage isn't the strength or reliablity of the containment, it's the exposure to other perils. Like fault zones. Like other natural disasters. Like very bad people with very bad intent. Even if we scrapped every reactor operating in the states today, we'd still have in excess of 60,000 tons of high level waste to deal with. I'd rather have it all consolidated to a fairly remote, highly protective, geologically stable area than scattered through-out the country.

Speaking of millirem and US Safety Standards:
Three Mile Island (TMI) was the site of the worst US nuclear disaster ever. It underwent a partial core meltdown of nearly half the core. That is unbelieveably bad. Furthermore, the meltdown and the failure of venting systems resulted in a massive hydrogen bubble in the pressure core, which had the capacity to blow the core out of the containment vessel. Everything was set for disaster on a massive scale. And yet, despite a near total failure of every one and every thing involved, the worst nuclear reactor incident on US soil caused an estimated exposure of about 100 millirem in the boundary site, and about 2 millirem on average across the exposure area. Why? Because our reactors were over-engineered with inherent safety and containment as the top priority. In 1970.

Suck on that, Chernobyl.

I would not hesitate to live in the immediate vicinity of a nuclear power plant in the US, because I understand the risks. In fact, I have lived in the vicinity of several plants throughout my life. I understand the inherent fear in people who do not understand the nature of the risk. Some folks won't fly on an airplane because of the possibility of failure, despite the low probability.

I am a huge believer in the benefits of nuclear power as a clean and abundant resource. I am not, however, a huge believer in the US political system actually resolving the issues necessary to safely expand the nuclear footprint in this country at any point in the near future.
 
JohnnyEgo said:
You'll have to forgive me, but I am a bit lost. What exactly are we lumping together?

For the case you had that impression. I was not talking about you. More meant in general. It happens very easily that we classify a person or group in a "sterotype" when we dont even know their reasons. But now that you ask

What exactly are we lumping together?

DammitBoy said:
I agree, Russia has proven that slavs can't be trusted with nuclear energy. Even France does it better, for christ's sake..

DammitBoy said:
Environmentalists = tree-hugging, commie, pinko-fag, left wing loons

I mean yeah ... DB is a special case anyway. As inteligent he can be sometimes he sounds like a simpleton. Or what he posts. I call it the stone-syndrome. People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones. (- And I doubt it is always that simple. With "Enviromentalists". I have no clue. I dont have much to do with those people. But with so many organisations. So many political groups and different oppinions out there. Everyone beeing the same ? That sounds hardly realistic to me. )

Like talking about corruption or wars by other nations which you see as "inferior" while ignoring the Vietnamconflict or cases like the Iran contra affair naming failures like Tschernobyle when the potential for huge dissasters was present in other nations as well. The Soviet nuclear technology was not the only one with major issues or problems in history. The reason was not the failure of technology alone but human errors played a huge role. And those as we all know happen everywhere. What many forget is that the Cold War was a "war" and like every war it sees a lot of propaganda. The West wone this war. Go figure. In many minds today the "Russians" are this big evil empire from the other side. As like Reggan nicely explained. Though even he was schocked when it almost ended in a nuclear war at some point which has lead to demobilization. The truth is that in the US politics you just had as many lunatics like on the Soviet side which wanted to end it "all at once" with one big fight! If it would cause the death of 1/3 of the population in their own country (if not more) so be it. I mean only a crazy mind would come up with something like the mad-man theory. It is like playing roulete. Just with nuclear missiles.

I mean take the "Even France does it better, for christ's sake". I count in nuclear technology as well "nuclear weapons" and not just civlian use which can not seperated that easily - Otherwise no one would fear the Iran to get some nuclear reactors runing no?.

Many reactors in the past had no other purpose but to create very fast nuclear material for weapon systems hence why such systems have been favoured by both The west and east (not Just the US or Soviets alone) - Coinsidence is that the RBMK reactor for Tschernobyle was choosen beacause it allowed to create weapon-grade nuclear material the urge for it by the Soviet leadership was seen as so high that any safety standarts have been large ignored during the 70s when the reactor was build something we know today is that at some point the Soviets had much less nuclear weapons particularly missiles compared to the US arsenal which no one knew in the west but it left the Soviet leadership with huge paranoia of not beeing able to respond in a nuclear war and making sure the enemy is destroyed as well.

Neither the US or France have shown more responsibility regarding nuclear technology compared to the Soviets. As shown by countless tests. Truth is someone which is trying to compare the nations eventually declaring one of them as "inherently" better will open a can of worms and end in a very unprofessional debate about who is the "biger pig". Just like what many neo-fascist do when they name Soviet crimes after the occupation of Germany showing that the "other side" was just as bad. It ignores completely the fact that already ONE incident is worse enough. Regardless who did it. It does not solve the issue and It just creates conflicts. Like proven countless times (cold war as example). Those nations with a huge nuclear arsenal posses usualy as well many nuclear reactors. Hence why neither Japan nor germany have that many compared to France or Britain.

I think we need nuclear energy at the moment. But using it as solution ? Doubtfull. It is much better to distribute our need in energy to as many sources as possible.
 
DammitBoy said:
You know we're not all white guys thumping our bibles at the klan rally right?
Yes, I know it. A lot of my family is living in the USA more than five decades, so I'm concerned about your (American) safety too. :wink:
 
i just wanted to say one thing about concrete bunkers to store this nuclear waste...


on the surface a modern reinforced concrete building will on average last 20-50 years without temperature controls and/or maintenance.

if you add in temperature controls and maintenance, it will last on average 150-200 years.

if you actively maintain it with the above, it could last indefinately.

conversely pure concrete and NOT reinforced concrete and NOT ferro-crete will last indefinately barring things like plant/animal life destroying it.

the longest pure concrete object observed to last has been around over 2,000 years.

so if you really want long-term storage, concrete is a viable solution. but it must be engineered WITHOUT iron or any other corrodeable metal for reinforcement.

most life in the earth happens in the top 100 yards of the surface.

if you go down 2-3 miles under the earth, build containment rooms for the stuff surrounded by pure concrete and maybe even special rooms with some form of like lead protection sealed so it wont corrode then you theoretically have a containment structure that could last forever barring any thing that would cause a cave-in like volcano or earthquakes.
 
Crni Vuk said:
JohnnyEgo said:
You'll have to forgive me, but I am a bit lost. What exactly are we lumping together?

For the case you had that impression. I was not talking about you. More meant in general.

My apologies. Your post having followed mine, I thought you were referring to me.

Regarding your follow-up: The world is full of hypocrisy, and the US is no exception. However, you can be both hypocritical and have legitimate points at the same time. It's the separation of message from messenger. Not something we're very good at as a species, though.

I will also say that I have spent a fair amount of time overseas, including most of Europe and a pretty big chunk of the Middle East. I have yet to find a system that is quantitatively 'better' then that of the U.S., for all of it's flaws.

Moving on. I agree with you on the idea of a robust and decentralized energy production and distribution network. Historically in this country, micro generation was the norm for early electrical networks. Partially, this was the nature of Direct Current generation, which sustained substantial line losses over longer transmission districts. George Westinghouse was the big champion of Alternating Current generation, because it could be stepped up and transmitted cheaply over long distances. This gave an early economy of scale and a strong economic incentive to centralize generation and distribution. It allowed us as a nation to make tremendous economic strides early on, at the cost of an increasingly complex and inefficient distribution network today.

Edit: Having seen the technical specifications for Soviet era core containment, pressure vessel design, and shielding for their Yankee class submarine, I can assure you that Soviet engineers placed less emphasis on crew safety and containment than American engineers.
 
JohnnyEgo said:
Three Mile Island (TMI) was the site of the worst US nuclear disaster ever. It underwent a partial core meltdown of nearly half the core. That is unbelieveably bad. Furthermore, the meltdown and the failure of venting systems resulted in a massive hydrogen bubble in the pressure core, which had the capacity to blow the core out of the containment vessel. Everything was set for disaster on a massive scale. And yet, despite a near total failure of every one and every thing involved, the worst nuclear reactor incident on US soil caused an estimated exposure of about 100 millirem in the boundary site, and about 2 millirem on average across the exposure area. Why? Because our reactors were over-engineered with inherent safety and containment as the top priority. In 1970.
From what I can read though I am NOT an expert they prevented further issues by detecting the right situation at some point and removing some or all of the gass.

I still have no clue if they have either prevented the worst case to happen or if the worst case is what happend - hope you know what I mean. Maybe it had the potential to become some "american tschernobyle" but luck was it that someone at the right time knew what to do to prevent it.

As said. I dont know it.
 
The short version is that the feed water supply got cut off, causing the reactor to immediately shut down (yeah!). Without feedwater coolant, pressure started rising within the reactor. An emergency pilot valve opened to bleed off pressure, but never closed. Coolant diverted to the reactor exited the open valve instead, causing a low flow situation on the core. The plant operators misinterpreted the high pressure within the pressure vessel as a sign that the core was immersed in coolant. They actually reduced the flow of coolant to the core, thinking this would reduce the pressure in the pressure vessel. Instead, the core went into melt down. It continued to melt for something like eight hours before the plant operators finally figured out what was going on and were able to recharge the primary loop and cool the core below super-critical. In total, over half the core melted over the course of 10-12 hours, and yet the containment held and minimal radiation was released.

Of course it was a combination of luck, skill, and timing, but reactor design is what bought us the time to figure it out before we went 'Chernobyl'.
 
JohnnyEgo said:
Of course it was a combination of luck, skill, and timing, but reactor design is what bought us the time to figure it out before we went 'Chernobyl'.
Well Chernobyl didnt happend in a matter for 5 min. either.

From my point of view (which is maybe wrong) the situation looks like in the US there was a much faster reaction and awareness about the accident by the engineers in charge compared to Chernobyle. Though I am not sure how much both incidents can be compared really as there definetly differences in the design between the ractors and the cause of the accidents. Hence the question if the Miles accident had the POTENTIAL to become another Chernobyle and how big the risk was. I have yet to find a study that is trying to adress that point. And unless we dont get someone with correct expertise like some engineer who has knowledge about both reactor types I am not sure if that can be answered.

I mean something that has been reviewed is the position of the engineers in charge over Chernobyle which have been driven on one side by their own ambition and on the other by the huge preasure of the communist party together with technical errors in the design and construction so for example when the reactor was build the didnt used fire-proof cement for the roof as it could not be delivered in time but since they needed reactors for the production of nuclear weapons it had to be finished as fast as possible so they used usual cement. All those together have created a very dangerous mixture which happend to meet the worst moment possible when they had a test runing which should have been done already before the reactor was runing. I will not even argue here that probably the safety standarts in western reactors have been eventually better. Yet there has been some controversity about it. Before and after Chernobyle.

But to say that. One has to show respect regarding the tremendious work of the Liquidator. More then 1 Million people (all together) from what I heard. It was not allowed to work more then 30 sec. before another "shift" had to get out. Almost collecting parts of the reactor by hand. I mean those people damn knew that it was pretty much suicide. You probably had a biger chance with playing Russian roulette. And yet they did it. Simply because someone had to do it.
 
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