I just realised how unoriginal Bethesda is...

[ThatZenoGuy]

That's true. I'd still like to see him repair anything that doesn't require hammering or sewing. I'd like him to learn to be a doctor who can talk about combat implants in Vault City, or use a computer in any capacity. I expect a tribal's outdoorsman, melee and unarmed to be through the roof. I'd expect middling competency in traps, first aid or barter. But barring a special perk bestowed by time heavy education, he should be utterly barred from any use of science, repair, doctor, gambling and firearms. It doesn't take all that long to becoming mediocre with a gun, but to know how to use a gun well enough to make aimed shots, to clean and maintain a gun, much less an energy weapon, that should require training.

Why do you need training to aim at someone's head?

You need practice, sure, but not training.

You need training to get a headstart, but lots of stuff can be learned through sheer trial and error.

Tribals need to repair wells, weapons, armour, etc, they know how to repair.

Tribals need to know how to heal wounds and broken bones, they know how to heal. Just not as well as a real doctor, although some know more than others, like the healer in the starting tribe.

Its a bit much to expect an RPG to limit a player's abilities, people complain enough that you 'need' good melee in the start of the game (which isn't true..But eh...).

Imagine how pissed people would get, if you locked doctor, science, repair, and guns/energy weapons, until you visit certain areas?

 

[Charwo]

All very true, Zeno. I would totally get that.

On the other hand, I don't think a tribal makes a good main character in a schizotech world like Fallout. I wouldn't mind playing a tribal in say a Last of the Mohicans RPG, where the damage capacities of Whites and Indians are matched on a one to one basis or playing a Barbarian in a Conan od D&D setting.

My point isn't that they should have locked skills. My point is that making the main character a tribal itself was a bad decision. It shouldn't have been done.

 

[ThatZenoGuy]

All very true, Zeno. I would totally get that.

On the other hand, I don't think a tribal makes a good main character in a schizotech world like Fallout. I wouldn't mind playing a tribal in say a Last of the Mohicans RPG, where the damage capacities of Whites and Indians are matched on a one to one basis or playing a Barbarian in a Conan od D&D setting.

My point isn't that they should have locked skills. My point is that making the main character a tribal itself was a bad decision. It shouldn't have been done.

Why is being a tribal a bad starting point?

To me it actually makes a lot of sense.

You start off with pitiful skills, technically picking science/repair/energy weapons makes the game a LOT harder, as you start off without any real ability to fight anything, nor are such skills useful for anything in the start.

It starts you off as a weakling, who only really shines when he/she gets a load of levelups, which, logically, will be when you DO visit places which have scientists and repairmen and such.

 

[Charwo]

Because a character's past is important in not only shaping what he is psychologically but in determining what he can actually do. There's a huge difference between being trained enough to be cannon fodder (six weeks) and becoming a skilled warrior (several years with near total commitment, as per any special forces). Except that unlike technical skills, some people are just natural warriors or leaders or traders.

In practice being a Vault Dweller or otherwise generally educated, puts the character in a position to become the competent man the SPECIAL system allows you to be. Fallout 3 you appear far stronger than you should be out of the Vault, but that's because the game is badly unbalanced. Pop on FWE and that school with the raiders becomes scar(ier). The issue isn't that being a tribal makes you weak, it's realistically a hard cap on how far your character can advance. And moreover, the Arroyo tribe isn't even Dead Horses advanced, they're much closer to Sorrows. And I'm still miffed because it's a destiny that makes no sense for most any Vault Dweller people would actually play.

SPECIAL is grossly inappropriate system for such a character. The character is a barbarian without the rage mechanic. But more than that, it's the story of the Vault Dweller after exile I find insulting. It makes no sense.

You start out as a weakling in all games with levels, that's how they work. Being a tribal isn't especially crippling in that regard, and in fact, a tribal should get automatic skill bonuses to skills they'd actually have to use (Outdoorsman, melee, first aid and traps)

 

[ThatZenoGuy]

Because a character's past is important in not only shaping what he is psychologically but in determining what he can actually do.

No? It doesn't?

The only backstory is 'he is a tribal, and his ancestor was the vault dweller'.

He could be a crazy motherfucker who shanks people.

Or he could be a docile person who has a silver tongue.

Hell, he could be a dude who is shunned by the tribe because all he does is study energy weapons all day, who knows?

 

[Charwo]

You know, I would think that last one, about studying energy weapons would be fascinating, but there isn't a shred of evidence to suggest it. In fact, people in Reno, and intact city, presumably with a hazy institutional memory, don't know what laser weapons are at all. And the only person who can study them is Eldridge, who's not only a weapon dealer but has a Rainman in his basement and is far better educated than a tribal is capable of being, at least within the realistic timeframe. Sure you can play for 13 years, in practice, the game takes 2 years and that's only if you really stretch it.

There's good reason to think that the Chosen One has never seen a padlock before, much less have any idea how to lockpick it. This is a problem with any Vault Dweller too, but with a tribal it's more so. I'm not saying you can't play a shanker or silver tongue, I am saying that certain skills should be locked to him, and therefore they shouldn't have made the character a tribal at all. Because it doesn't make sense for a tribal to have those skillsets. It was a very bad design choice and Bethesda is will justified in forcing the backgrounds that it does. They make sense for the SPECIAL mechanics.

 

[ThatZenoGuy]

You know, I would think that last one, about studying energy weapons would be fascinating, but there isn't a shred of evidence to suggest it.

Its almost as if a large amount of backstory and such is supposed to be made up by the player...

 

[Charwo]

Its almost as if a large amount of backstory and such is supposed to be made up by the player...

That's very true, but your background limits your options. For instance there's no mechanic for it, but if Fallout 4 had Lore, your pre-war character fresh out of cryostasis would not be able to have any knowledge of Wasteland creatures or Wasteland politics. If there was an energy weapon in Arroyo, I would expect it to be in the game, you could pick it up and presumably have some energy cells for it because to study it, you have to see it operate, not nearly looking at the lump of plastics and electronics. But that isn't an option. There aren't any guns, grenades, or books or bookshelves in all of Arroyo.

Now you could use the save game editor to give your character an energy pistol, but your modding the game at this point and tacitly admitting the severe limitations of the tribal background. At this point, I would have an alternate start where the main character is still a descendant of the Vault Dweller returning to Vault 13 to find it inhabited by Deathclaws, or is a farmer from Klamath trying to save the town's crops with a Geck or a citizen of Vault City, and once you solve the Geck Power Plant situation they give you your grandfather's Power Armor so you can walk to NCR.

 

[Prone Squanderer]

You guys are overthinking Arroyo to defend the premise, which is just terrible. I don't say that because I despise tribals, but because it doesn't make sense. Even assuming basic literacy with these yokels is a stretch, but fine, let's give it.

As far as starts go, Bethesda's premises work far far better, although I'd argue that a fully educated adult of the pre-war world should be at level 5 or 10, with perks spread between things the player feels the character would have learned in their pre-war life. All in all, it's a small complaint though.

New Vegas has the best premise IMO. There's enough ambiguity to allow the player to fill in the blanks.

 

[Risewild]

I don't see tagging skills as being trained at them, I see tag as the character having a natural talent for those skills. Many people in this world have a knack for particular things, and even if they never did use a gun or lockpicked a lock they will be able to do it in less time and effort than people without a talent for it.
That is what the skills are for. Just because the character starts with 25% in one skill and 50% on a different skill it doesn't mean that they already practiced that skill, it means they are more proficient when doing that skill instead (that is why the skill values increase or decrease depending on the character's SPECIAL Attributes).

Also the pre-made characters offer some insight on some skills and how some tribals use them.
For example Narg has tagged small-guns and says he is an accomplished hunter. Maybe the tribe does have some guns hidden in some secret cache that are only used on emergencies or for hunting, maybe they had guns in the past but run out of ammo and sold them to traders.
Mingan became a scout and usually travel to other nearby tribes. He practice sneak, lockpicking and steal by going to other tribes and get "free stuff" from them.
Chitsa was said to have wandered the wastes and that she is the tribe's best trader.
So the tribe does have contact with the outside world, they also deal with traders and they travel the wastes too.

The elder has a gun in her tent too, we see it in the intro. Also the Fallout bible says that the Temple of Trials was built on a pre-war ruin by the tribals:

BTW, the Temple of Trials was built on the ruins of an older Pre-War building, most likely a church. The carved head at the entrance and some of the carvings/wall decorations on the three sub-levels were done by the Arroyo inhabitants.

They also seem to have access to holodisks somehow because the Elder says in the intro:

Come in, Chosen One. There are things you must know. The village is dying. The signs are everywhere. Withering crops... dying brahmin... sick children. There is hope, however. A slim hope that few know of. The old disks speak of an item called the Garden of Eden Creation Kit. It is said it can bring life to the wasteland.
This will be your quest if you prove yourself worthy. For that proof, you must first journey to the Temple of Trials. If you survive, come back to me; we will talk more. Our life is in your hands, Chosen One. Prove yourself. Find the GECK. Be our salvation.

So they might also have holodisks that teach the basics of some skills.

 

[Black Angel]

Damn, Grandpa @Risewild nailed it, once again.

Also, remember that, once again, the Arroyo tribal were descended from the V13's dwellers. They were derived from the gene pool of humans from before the Great War, so I don't see how two generations of living like a tribal would turn them into 'stupid primitivist retards'.

 

[ThatZenoGuy]

I wonder, it's pretty likely that some have used pipe rifles, Vic has one, and he trades with them, right?

 

[SarcasticGoodGuy]

"Bethesda is shit lmao"

 

[ThatZenoGuy]

"Bethesda is shit lmao"

Ayy.

 

[Prone Squanderer]

"Bethesda is shit lmao"

XD

 

[0wing]

"Bethesda is shit lmao"

Praise the KEK.

snip

Was there any scientific research proving that people actually born with knack for specific skill or kind of activity? And I mean most people, not some exceptions. Why is this important? Well, always playing SPECIAL character is a bit limiting. What if one want to build a complete mediocre character who only succeeds with luck and complete misunderstanding of how things work? And fails for the same reasons.

 

[naossano]

My complain would be that you get exposed to modern technology way too early.
They spent time creating all the generic tribal technologies, with spears, knives, rocks, healing powders, xander and brock, and you basically ditches everything once you reach the next settlement...

 

[Risewild]

Praise the KEK.

Was there any scientific research proving that people actually born with knack for specific skill or kind of activity? And I mean most people, not some exceptions. Why is this important? Well, always playing SPECIAL character is a bit limiting. What if one want to build a complete mediocre character who only succeeds with luck and complete misunderstanding of how things work? And fails for the same reasons.

There are scientific studies that show a correlation between genetics and certain activities. So some people's genetics are better suited to certain things and other people's genetics are better suited for other things, etc. Giving them a natural advantage while doing those things.

You can make a character like that in the classic Fallout games, all you have to do is to never spend any skill points and you will be mediocre at everything. Although if you don't improve I have the feeling you will have a very hard time later on.

 

[0wing]

There are scientific studies that show a correlation between genetics and certain activities. So some people's genetics are better suited to certain things and other people's genetics are better suited for other things, etc. Giving them a natural advantage while doing those things.

Does this mean that if I create a totally different character in FO2 compared to FO1, I also rewrite the history of Arroyo regarding VD's lineage indirectly?

You can make a character like that in the classic Fallout games, all you have to do is to never spend any skill points and you will be mediocre at everything. Although if you don't improve I have the feeling you will have a very hard time later on.

Well, natural selection pushes into learning at least something anyway, so that's just another extreme walkthrough scenario. Besides, I'd still have to tag my skills. (not the perks, at least)

 

[Risewild]

Does this mean that if I create a totally different character in FO2 compared to FO1, I also rewrite the history of Arroyo regarding VD's lineage indirectly?

Maybe the Vault Dweller married someone completely different and the Chosen one got most of it's genetics from her? Maybe it got it's genetics from the grandparents, there are studies that show genetics sometimes skip a generation or two (for example eye color or hair color), maybe the Chosen one just somehow got mutated while being a embryo or after birth somehow (even without a radiated wasteland some babies are born with some mutations in the real world), etc.