Immigration - US vs Europe

[Roshambo]

O shit, I should've put a sarcasm tag.

Sorry about that, it was rather late, and I didn't see anything that indicated it readily, but then later saw it.

 

[Wooz]

The people of Mexico have been told how the Norte Americanos have stolen their country's land and wealth. For all the years of their schooling their teachers repeat the stories of how Mexico has the right to reclaim its land. They have been told of how their brothers and sisters were winning the battle and that they soon would take back California, Arizona and New Mexico.

Pretty far-fetched. I attended elementary school for several years in Mexico, and I don't recall any of this. In History lessons, we were told those territories were annexed by the US after winning a war against Mexico, and that's it.

There was no propaganda nor approval for illegal immigrants to the U.S.

 

[Quantos Leap]

Pretty far-fetched. I attended elementary school for several years in Mexico, and I don't recall any of this. In History lessons, we were told those territories were annexed by the US after winning a war against Mexico, and that's it.

There was no propaganda nor approval for illegal immigrants to the U.S.

Perhaps, but they must learn it from somewhere right? Did you check the second link? Where I'm from (Texas), the Reconquista movement is popular amongst many of the local Mexicans. I've discussed it with several of my mexican friends, a topic not unfamiliar to them. Almost every Mexican knows what it's for and about. In light of that, it usually just boils down to if they agree with it or not.

 

[Roshambo]

Pretty far-fetched. I attended elementary school for several years in Mexico, and I don't recall any of this. In History lessons, we were told those territories were annexed by the US after winning a war against Mexico, and that's it.

There was no propaganda nor approval for illegal immigrants to the U.S.

Unfortunately, it probably wouldn't have been that far back. It seems to be a current scheme of the Mexican govt to make an entire industry to bring money into the country, especially since Bush got into office and other politicians are taking advantage of and committing felonies out in plain sight to make themselves profit despite whatever bad effects it would have. The Matrica Consular was specifically designed for this, for US banks and govt programs to have some way of identifying them for records purposes. The only thing stopping them previously was the lack of an SSN - now they can use other forms of identification in order to take advantage of programs normally only reserved for citizens, including govt-secured home loans. Now, more banks are looking to provide services without any citizenship SSN involved. Fuck that, it presents way too many fraud possibilities.

So I doubt it would be far-fetched to think that the current Mexican schooling system might promote this kind of thinking to try and drive people onwards to jumping the border, as the govt goes so far as to issue an ID to just about anyone who asks for it, for the sole purpose of aiding wetbacks with US goods and services..

I still support the shooting of coyotes on the spot.

 

[welsh]

What we really need is a wall, a few miles deep, from the border into the US. We can use barbed wire on both sides so that no good wholesome Americans wander into it.

Might as well electrify it too, because things sound cool when they go snap, crackle, pop.

Between those lines of barbed wire we should set up a line of defenses.
Minefields, (Bouncing Betties so we can talk out a score of wetbacks with one blast).
Boobie-traps,
Robotically controlled machinegun emplacements that will mow any living thing in two.
Flamethrower traps.
Pits filled with stakes,
dung covered pungee sticks.
Poisonous snakes.
A moat filed with ravaneous crocadiles.
(We can get Haliburton to do the contracting. They are good at this kind of thing).

We can import Pirranha fish too.

In certain areas we can raise Grizzly bears to hunt down half starved wet backs and consume them. We should also train sharks and mine carrying dolphins to get those illegals who try to swim around the border.

Maybe a solar powered death beam that sweeps over the expanse of desert.

Illegal immigrants should be rounded up and sent to camps in North Dakota and Wyoming. Nice comfortable camps where they can be protected and isolated from the rest of us. Can't have them tainting our good old wholesome American Christian culture with their Latino Catholicism and that funny spanglish.

Is that the kind of policy you want?

Ok, in all seriousness- it is hard to calculate the size of the illegal population in the US.

Even if DA King estimates 20 million illegal immigrants reside in the US, other right-wing groups doubt that number as accurate. We do have a problem with illegal immigration. But short of making a wall that would surpass what the Soviets tried in Eastern Europe, or what Rommel built on the beaches of France, the problem has to be addressed with reform.

Locally, many of the hispanic gang members are actually second or third generation Americans born into poor urban families. But it's probably true that more of the gang members in the states more affected by illegal immigration might be illegals. I would think is likely that gangs south of the border would send criminals to the US if only to strengthen their trans-border ties. Most organized criminal organizations have done this in the past. In New YOrk we had problems with the Russian mob in part because of its ties back home. Likewise, a lot of criminal organizations begin in immigrant and poor communities in cities- in part because those areas are poorly policed.

Better law enforcement is only part of the answer. Many illegals came here legally and overstayed their welcome. A lot of them want to stay and would take significant steps to stay. And while some may be criminals, I would bet that most of them are guilty of only immigration violations, but otherwise are just as hard working as the next person.

I would be surprised if Mexican schools were teaching its kids that they should reconquer the US. That sounds more like right-wing fiction than fact.

That people who come to the US send money back home is not new. Every ethnicity that comes to the US finds ways of sending money back home. Yes it's a capital drain.

But I think a better policy would be to tighten border security but also go after the employers who hire illegal immigrants. That would seem fair. Rather than target a group of people that are trying to make a better life for themselves and have to resort to illegal means, maybe it would be better to target those that profit from that illegality.

For the past few decades, each administration has been making immigration both more complicated and more expensive. My wife's father can't come visit his daughter because of consular problems in Brazil- and the guy is only 75 years old and a doctor. There are a lot of folks who are desperate to come to the US, and don't have the million or so capital to buy property to make immigration easier. That the process keeps getting frustrating and biased will only push more decent folks to break the law to come to the US. Maintaining standards by which breaking the law is easier will only give more incentives to side step the rather frustrating and inept way of coming over legally, for the chance of coming over illegally.

What worries me is that most folks can't tell the difference between illegal immigrants and legal immigrants, and targetting one population will lead to targetting another. A little more racial hate is always a good thing for white supremist groups. You can bet the Klan is loving this.

That said, I agree that coyotes should be shot. Not necessarily shot on sight, but fed to real coyotes.

 

[Roshambo]

Locally, many of the hispanic gang members are actually second or third generation Americans born into poor urban families. But it's probably true that more of the gang members in the states more affected by illegal immigration might be illegals. I would think is likely that gangs south of the border would send criminals to the US if only to strengthen their trans-border ties. Most organized criminal organizations have done this in the past. In New YOrk we had problems with the Russian mob in part because of its ties back home. Likewise, a lot of criminal organizations begin in immigrant and poor communities in cities- in part because those areas are poorly policed.

No, not poorly policed, but ignored because the police can't just go in and arrest illegals, due to some stupid Federal sanctuary courtesy or some dumb shit like that. If you think crime in gangster Chicago or NY was bad, try taking a look at just one 9k+ and growing Mexican gang in Los Angeles, and the police can't even do shit even if they get fired at. 9k+, of course, being their LA population only, and they constantly funnel more into LA and San Diego. Arizona also has a severe problem with gangs coyoting over their own, as the border patrol often has to drive in armored trucks. Now add in a few more Mexican gangs, and LA turns into a greater mess.

Hell, it's getting so bad, we might as well put a bounty on illegal Mexican gangers. That way, it would help the poor folks in Compton, and also give them something to shoot at besides each other. It would also introduce money back into the neighborhoods, as well as give the black gangs something constructive to do. It's win-win, baby!

Better law enforcement is only part of the answer. Many illegals came here legally and overstayed their welcome. A lot of them want to stay and would take significant steps to stay. And while some may be criminals, I would bet that most of them are guilty of only immigration violations, but otherwise are just as hard working as the next person.

It just isn't law enforcement, but the law system. There is no problem catching them, and there is quite a lot of equipment already. The problem is the fact that they will try again, and again, and keep coming over with many new people who think it is a way of life. There is nothing to really discourage illegals from coming into this country. They try to illegally cross, it's the coyote that's arrested, the rest are put into waiting cells. If someone was wounded, they will likely be released straight from the hospital and out onto US streets. The others fill up jails while they get to wait for a judge to deport them, which is creating one hell of a bottleneck in the judicial system right now.

So in essence, the border guard fills the bucket to bail out the boat taking on water, and the judicial system pours half of the bucket back into the boat. While another four bucketfuls leak into the boat.

I would be surprised if Mexican schools were teaching its kids that they should reconquer the US. That sounds more like right-wing fiction than fact.

I would guess that selective schools do this, especially around the border. Really, telling these border-jumping Mexicans how to abuse the US welfare system is almost like US high school's Career Day, which fits right into the Mexican govt's plan with the Matrica Consular. So while they might not explicitly teach it, or if they do, the fact still stands that the Mexican govt. wants to profit from it and does so, with the aid of US lawmakers to sell out US citizens and their jobs. Like how 80% of US jobs from the Big Three car and truck dealers went to Mexico.

That people who come to the US send money back home is not new. Every ethnicity that comes to the US finds ways of sending money back home. Yes it's a capital drain.

There is a difference between someone sending money back home to try and get the rest of their family over, or while working on a work visa, and illegally coming into a country to suck all the aid they possibly can and then ship it back to Mexico so they can take advantage of someone else's hard work. There is NOTHING meritous about the latter at all.

But I think a better policy would be to tighten border security but also go after the employers who hire illegal immigrants. That would seem fair. Rather than target a group of people that are trying to make a better life for themselves and have to resort to illegal means, maybe it would be better to target those that profit from that illegality.

35-45% of those assholes aren't interested in a "better life", they are interested in a quick and easy buck no matter if it's from welfare or from jail. That is why crime rates are going up lately, because it is cold outside. In jail, you get kept warm and fed.

There is quite a difference between legal and illegal immigrants. The illegal ones already don't give a fuck about the laws and people, generally speaking.

But I do agree that going after those who hire illegal aliens should be punished. Unfortunately, you just suggested that we fine most of our higher lawmakers due to their connections with companies that utilize illegal labor, most of our national fast food chains, Wal-Mart, the produce industry that keeps lying about how without illegals produce will go up to insane prices, and quite a few more. It's kind of like trying to figure out who hasn't received corporate kickbacks in the Congress lately. Alaskans have known their senators are bought off by the oil companies all the time.

Seriously, even though we know the problem and know of a solution, the politicians would not put it into effect because it results in them making less money and looking bad, so look for some vapid and useless attempt that doesn't make them look responsible.

For the past few decades, each administration has been making immigration both more complicated and more expensive. My wife's father can't come visit his daughter because of consular problems in Brazil- and the guy is only 75 years old and a doctor. There are a lot of folks who are desperate to come to the US, and don't have the million or so capital to buy property to make immigration easier.

Well, the average US citizen doesn't have the million or so capital to live off from as the masses of wetbacks wage-scalps their job, nor the money to buy a gun to protect them from the masses of gangs holding up LA traffic FOR HOURS to rob drivers as "toll money", as if a gun would help against a gang doing that. Or how about how the gangs spread their influence? Immigration is also a different matter than visitation - so instead of looking to immigrate, gramps would be looking to get a passport instead of a green card. A different matter entirely, really.

That the process keeps getting frustrating and biased will only push more decent folks to break the law to come to the US. Maintaining standards by which breaking the law is easier will only give more incentives to side step the rather frustrating and inept way of coming over legally, for the chance of coming over illegally.

Well, then there's another thing. It's called "closed borders". That means if you run them, YOU GET SHOT. You get planted right there.

Hmmm...no, I don't see how this differs from how any other country has dealt with an invasion of illegal sappers.

As it looks like the illegal gangers coming here, eventually join gangs if they weren't sent as part of one, and then take the US ganger mentality and profit back to wherever they are from (guns instead of simple gangs with sticks), it seems to create even more problems for the country they were deported back to as it spreads the gangs. So perhaps deportation isn't the best answer, either, as I originally hinted.

A woman was shot in the head just a mile from Melrose Hill last year as she drove her husband and three children home after a Thanksgiving dinner. Police suspect an MS 13 gang member from El Salvador fired the fatal bullet.

I personally would have no moral problem treating every one of those gang's members to the same "Happy Thanksgiving", in place of deportation. Unfortunate that this country doesn't have any balls anymore, except to act retarded with them (thanks, Georgie), as everyone is afraid of being sued for discrimination - which a few wetbacks have come dangerously close to arguing more than a few rights only citizens should have. The country to which the illegal ganger would be deported to has no money to deal with them, so make the ganger disappear and everyone who matters benefits. It really isn't that hard.

What worries me is that most folks can't tell the difference between illegal immigrants and legal immigrants, and targetting one population will lead to targetting another. A little more racial hate is always a good thing for white supremist groups. You can bet the Klan is loving this.

Indeed, because they have a valid target. Also, illegals should not be excused, treated, or even filed in the same category as legal immigrants - as they are already lawbreakers.

That said, I agree that coyotes should be shot. Not necessarily shot on sight, but fed to real coyotes.

No, they should be shot, on sight, in front of the illegals, especially when many of the coyotes already shoot at the border patrol. Then it sends a clear message to the other coyotes and the coyote gangs, as well as anyone else looking to cross. I also support shooting down a truck that refuses to yield, regardless if it endangers the coyote or illegals, as the truck has unidentified contents and the purpose is unknown and it is trying to break the border. The purpose can be assumed, but in the interests of security, swiss the damn thing...