India-USA Sign 10 Year Military Agreement

John Uskglass

Venerable Relic of the Wastes
Maybe we can finally put a cap on the expansion of Chinese political power. A combined Indo-American alliance could, hopefully, check the totalitarian power of China over the century, hopefully. Still. A lot of problems to get through, I suppose: namely making sure that India develops as quickly as China.

Thoughts? Comments?

http://www.iht.com/articles/2005/06/29/news/india.php

NEW DELHI A 10-year military agreement just signed by the defense secretaries of the United States and India is intended to provide for numerous advances in the relationship, including joint weapons production, greater sharing of technology and intelligence as well as an increased trade in arms.

A statement signed by India's defense minister, Pranab Mukherjee, and the U.S. defense secretary, Donald Rumsfeld, in Washington on Tuesday night said that the United States and India had "entered a new era" and declared that the two countries' defense relationship had advanced to "unprecedented levels of cooperation."

Ten years after India and the United States signed their previous agreement on defense, and seven years after Washington broke military relations after India's first nuclear tests, the new framework upgraded the agreement between "the world's two largest democracies" from a "defense relationship" to a "strategic partnership" that is intended to strengthen "our countries' security" and "build greater understanding between our defense establishments," according to the document.

The agreement was greeted with mixed reviews in New Delhi. Some analysts interpreted it as a significant manifestation of Washington's recently stated commitment to help India transform itself into world power in the 21st century.

Raja Mohan, a professor at Jawaharlal Nehru University in Delhi specializing in relations between the United States and India, described the agreement as a "huge step forward."

"There has been a lot of skepticism about America's intentions, but this lays out a fully fledged framework for the next decade," he said. "It's a serious document."

But others were more doubtful, asserting that the agreement had more to do with U.S. strategic concerns than with a single-minded desire to engage with India.

Many of these analysts interpret the recent U.S. courtship of India as part of a wider goal of containing the growing power and influence of India's Asian rival, China.

Lalit Mansingh, India's foreign secretary between 1999 and 2001 who subsequently served as ambassador to the Washington until 2004, agreed that this was a significant agreement. "We have much greater shared interests than we did 10 years ago, and we are talking now about co-production of arms," he said. "This is quite clearly a new step towards strategic partnership."

However, he also sensed a shadow of shared U.S. and Indian unease over China lingering over the document, which he said would be the subject of close scrutiny in Beijing. "China is like the ghost at the banquet - an unspoken presence that no one wants to talk about," Mansingh said.

"No one in Washington or Delhi would admit that this has anything to do with China," he continued with a reference to ideological neoconservatives in the United States. "But the U.S. neocons say that the long-term threat to the U.S. can only be from China, and India also realizes that it has a neighbor with whom it has border disputes, whose economic and military growth is greater than its own."

The agreement paves the way for increased joint military exercises and aims for more "opportunities for technology transfer, collaboration, coproduction, and research and development" and expanded collaboration on missile defense. "This defense relationship will support, and will be an element of, the broader U.S.-India strategic partnership," the agreement concluded.

Mukherjee was in the United States in advance of a visit by Prime Minister Manmohan Singh, scheduled for July 18, when the Indian delegation will be hoping to secure further proof of U.S. warmth, in the form of backing for its campaign for a permanent seat on a reformed UN Security Council.

Many of the aspirations in the framework need to be negotiated in detail and are subject to approval from lawmakers in both countries. The document was nevertheless seen in Delhi on Wednesday as an important signal of intention.

Mohan stressed that the document should not simply be viewed in the light of U.S. fears about Beijing's rising influence.

In a speech Tuesday before the document was signed, Mukherjee urged Washington to go further and lift a ban on nuclear technology transfers to India, imposed in the wake of India's nuclear tests in 1998. He also suggested that U.S. defense industries could outsource some of their functions to India - in areas such as repair, overhaul and servicing.

In an apparent attempt to preempt any domestic concern that the deal would lead to an excessive reliance on the United States, Mukherjee made a point of stressing in a separate speech to the Carnegie Institute on Tuesday that India would retain its independent foreign policy, rejecting any notions of a "unipolar" world.

Uday Bhaskar, director of Delhi's Institute for Defense Studies, said this was a crucial element of Indian policy and said that the framework agreement should not be seen as a move by India toward dependence on Washington.

"I don't think that India has the DNA to allow it to become a Japan or a Britain in terms of adopting a subordinate status to the U.S. and allowing them to guarantee the nation's security. India's strategic culture would not allow it," he said.

Other analysts in Delhi highlighted the ongoing conflict between the U.S. policy of friendship toward Delhi and its continued military support for India's nuclear rival, Pakistan.

"While the U.S. is trying to build this long-term relationship with India, it is also selling weapons systems to Pakistan," said Brahma Chellaney, a defense analyst with the Center for Policy Research. "It is a contradiction which won't be easily resolved."broader U.S.-India strategic partnership," the agreement concluded.
 
I think if a country gets a chance to sign into a military agreement with the U.S. it's in their best wishes to. Hopefully this will benefit both nations, India more than ours of course but if they do become a world power than it would deffinatly help the U.S. considering India has the largest population in the world. Possibly later on we could even combine militaries, maybe we'd even be able to match China's haha.
 
China has the hardware, India has the software, they are bound to move past their historical diferences and come together. If that really goes through, then we`re heading for the first serious challenge to American hegemony since the end of the cold war. If not this will be the New American Century indeed.
 
So tell me CCR are you the least bit worried about what India may do without the USA advice? Whats going to happen when the technological edge India recieves finally breaks the India-Pakistan stalement and India decides war isnt so likely to end in an Indian defeat? To say the very least when/if this happens the muslims will surely see the hindu/muslim war as a rallying cry for their faith and suddenly see an ally of India (us) as taking the side of hinduism. Thats even hoping they dont fire nukes at each other...

Basically I see this as only strengthening the divide between the Christian and Muslim world...

Sincerely,
The Vault Dweller
 
Yes, maybe we can put a cap on the expansion of Chinese political power, because we Americans are entitled to rule the whole fucking planet.

CCR said:
check the totalitarian power of China over the century

Hah.
 
Yes, maybe we can put a cap on the expansion of Chinese political power, because we Americans are entitled to rule the whole fucking planet.
I don't care what you think Wooz, the Chinese are worse then we are, and America should do everything it can to try and stop Chinese growth and expansion. The Chinese are the greatest supporters of authoritarianism and amoral government in the world.
 
Yes, they're known for repeatedly invading a few countries, and instauring its own puppet regimes in South/Central America.

Amoral Government?

Your country's administration enforces a quasi-concentration camp in Guantanamo. It invaded two countries based on lies fed to the public. It plucked out the Geneva Conventions' eyesocket and skullfucked it. Several times. It recently started a program to use hyper-radioactive Pu238 for military purposes, introduced fingerprint scans for Non-Americans entering the country, Abolished a lot of citizen freedoms, including the Miranda Rights, and instaured heavy censorship and nationalist propaganda.


All the above happened in the previous five years, and you tell another country's government is ammoral? What the fuck?
 
Yes, they're known for repeatedly invading a few countries, and instauring its own puppet regimes in South/Central America.
They invade countries and they have several puppet regiems in South/Central Asia.

Amoral Government?
Tian Amen?

Your country's administration enforces a quasi-concentration camp in Guantanamo. It invaded two countries based on lies fed to the public. It plucked out the Geneva Conventions' eyesocket and skullfucked it. Several times. It recently started a program to use hyper-radioactive Pu238 for military purposes, introduced fingerprint scans for Non-Americans entering the country, Abolished a lot of citizen freedoms, including the Miranda Rights, and instaured heavy censorship and nationalist propaganda.
Funny enough, all of these are in China, and unlike your view of the US it really happens.

Also, most of that is just plain wrong. We still have Miranda, Geneva does not apply to terrorists, Pu238 rounds are depleted and don't cause damage to people who are'nt hit by the round, most of the rights we have the Chinese never had, etc....

China is worse then we are, you have to be blind to not see it. Obvious.
 
My beloved and estimated CCR, there are several things wrong with your post:

They invade countries and they have several puppet regiems in South/Central Asia.

Indeed, true. Tibet. That's one, not fifty. Puppet regimes? You mean like Pinochet and other Hitlers instaured by the US in South/Central America? Trained guerrilas in one country then trained contras in another country? School of Americas style?

We still have Miranda

Wroaung. You do not have the right to remain silent anymore. Remaining silent is an act of non-collaboration and punishable by 5 years of prison.

Geneva does not apply to terrorists,

Sure, just call every arab a terrorist and bomb the shit out of them, that makes sense.

Newsflash: Official (reported) civil death count in Iraq is over 22,000.

Everyone knows those people were mouth-frothing terrorists that were responsible for the 9/11 attacks.

most of the rights we have the Chinese never had

True, which makes it even more sad.


What "et cetera"?

China is worse then we are, you have to be blind to not see it. Obvious.

What I'm saying is that you're being extremely hypocritical, calling China an immoral country, while blindly supporting Emperor Dubyah's Fourth Reich. And a pompous dolt for believing the US has the right to control another country's sovereign RIGHT to foreign policy.
 
John Uskglass said:
Geneva does not apply to terrorists
thats rather conveniant. people trying to defend a country from invaders from the other side of the globe, are just labeled terrorist & hence denied basic human rights.
so, when eskimos invade the USA & you guys fight back, you dont have any rights either, because you are all terrorists! neither do the brits that come & help defend you, because those are foreign terrorists!

great reasoning pal. mr high & mighty just flushed the geneva convention & the human rights down the toilet.

John Uskglass said:
Pu238 rounds are depleted and don't cause damage to people who are'nt hit by the round
ooh, right, like agent orange? or like the depleted uranium anti tank rounds used in the gulf war? or even the standard depleted 5.56mm rounds?

yup, all perfectly harmless

/me goes off to watch Dr. Strangelove or: How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Bomb
 
Wooz said:
We still have Miranda

Wroaung. You do not have the right to remain silent anymore. Remaining silent is an act of non-collaboration and punishable by 5 years of prison.
Erm.

Yes Wooz. We still do have miranda rights. You might not if your implicated in terrorist activity. It's a sticky situation, but citizens freedoms haven't been depleted at all, except a few situations that were rare examples, not the norm.
 
Ah wait, forgot something.

Pu238 is not for rounds. that's U238, Uranium, m'kay?

Pu is Plutonium. F in Science, young man. The recent Pu238 investment in billions of $USD has nothing to do with the Depleted Uranium (DU) rounds. The article is posted a few lines down in this forum.

And the DU round, upon impact, vaporizes huge amounts of extremely toxic, cancerogenous substances. Which means anyone taking a look in the APC/Tank that has been destroyed using that type of AP ammo will breathe a happy dose of toxic waste. Ever heard of the "Gulf Syndrome" of Desert Storm vets? There's an alarmingly high rate of malformed children amongst their families.

Same thing about Bosnia-Herzegovina, where the same round type was used.

Coincidence. But like I said before, there's an American Way of selling the exotic, deformed babies.

EDIT:

Dove said:
Yes Wooz. We still do have miranda rights. You might not if your implicated in terrorist activity. It's a sticky situation, but citizens freedoms haven't been depleted at all, except a few situations that were rare examples, not the norm.

Well, "implicated in terrorist activity" would include anyone calling you a terrorist and denouncing it to the police, am I right? If you refuse to speak until your lawyer decides what to do, you're fucked.

Also, I think some people might have misinterpreted my post: While I agree that the US isn't a totalitarian, citizen right-deprived country like China, nor its actions comparable to hitler's Germany, it's slowly becoming one. I know people that have been detained by the police in a building (note: not in a prison) after an anti-war protest in NYC, with no food or waternor access to toilets for more than twenty-four hours. And no, they weren't throwing molotov cocktails nor looting shops, either. Along the same lines, a cyclists' protest in Miami was brutally repressed, injuring several senior citizens.
 
Well, "implicated in terrorist activity" would include anyone calling you a terrorist and denouncing it to the police, am I right? If you refuse to speak until your lawyer decides what to do, you're fucked.
Believe me, if they locked up an 80 year old man accused of armed robbery and refused his Miranda Rights, the ACLU would be on it like gay flies on Santorum.

Also, I think some people might have misinterpreted my post: While I agree that the US isn't a totalitarian, citizen right-deprived country like China, nor its actions comparable to hitler's Germany, it's slowly becoming one. I know people that have been detained by the police in a building (note: not in a prison) after an anti-war protest in NYC, with no food or waternor access to toilets for more than twenty-four hours. And no, they weren't throwing molotov cocktails nor looting shops, either. Along the same lines, a cyclists' protest in Miami was brutally repressed, injuring several senior citizens.
Nice anecdotes you have there. Thankfully, they are meaningless; I won't accuse the French of being fascists for beating up Anarchists and Communists, you should not do likewise.

thats rather conveniant. people trying to defend a country from invaders from the other side of the globe, are just labeled terrorist & hence denied basic human rights.
so, when eskimos invade the USA & you guys fight back, you dont have any rights either, because you are all terrorists! neither do the brits that come & help defend you, because those are foreign terrorists!

great reasoning pal. mr high & mighty just flushed the geneva convention & the human rights down the toilet.
Geneva has never applied to insurgents not backed by a internationally recognized government. Seeing as Afghanistan and Iraq have legitimate governments, and these insurgents/terrorists do not represent a real government, they're beyond Geneva.

Indeed, true. Tibet. That's one, not fifty. Puppet regimes? You mean like Pinochet and other Hitlers instaured by the US in South/Central America? Trained guerrilas in one country then trained contras in another country? School of Americas style?
Post-Khmer Rouge Cambodia, Vietnam, Laos, Maoist rebels in Nepal...that's actually almost as many people in all of the South/Central American puppet regiems, of which there are few these days.

Wroaung. You do not have the right to remain silent anymore. Remaining silent is an act of non-collaboration and punishable by 5 years of prison.
Uh..what? No, not really. Maybe in some extreme Keifer Sutherland in 24 like situations, but 99.999% of the time it's still the same old Miranda.

Newsflash: Official (reported) civil death count in Iraq is over 22,000.

Everyone knows those people were mouth-frothing terrorists that were responsible for the 9/11 attacks.
Wars=Dead People. That's still a fraction of the people killed under the Saddam regiem.

True, which makes it even more sad.
Entire world is going through illiberal period. See: rebirth of Far-Right in Europe, Putin, the PRC, etc...this is a scary time and people need to feel secure against determined terrorists.

What I'm saying is that you're being extremely hypocritical, calling China an immoral country, while blindly supporting Emperor Dubyah's Fourth Reich. And a pompous dolt for believing the US has the right to control another country's sovereign RIGHT to foreign policy.
I think myself and Dove know better what is happening in our own nation then you. Especially considering that it is looking less and less likely that the Republicans can maintain their control over all branches of Government.
 
All the above doesn't make you less of a nationalist hypocrite.

:*
 
So tell me CCR are you the least bit worried about what India may do without the USA advice? Whats going to happen when the technological edge India recieves finally breaks the India-Pakistan stalement and India decides war isnt so likely to end in an Indian defeat? To say the very least when/if this happens the muslims will surely see the hindu/muslim war as a rallying cry for their faith and suddenly see an ally of India (us) as taking the side of hinduism. Thats even hoping they dont fire nukes at each other...
Not really an issue. Nuclear wepons /w the means of delivering them is the great equalizer. India could have a GDP twice as big as ours in 50 years, but as Pakistan has nukes India will not wisk New Dehli going up in a mushroom cloud.
 
John Uskglass said:
Geneva has never applied to insurgents not backed by a internationally recognized government. Seeing as Afghanistan and Iraq have legitimate governments, and these insurgents/terrorists do not represent a real government, they're beyond Geneva.
so, you invade something, put up a new governement & instantly the previous reigning power becomes illegitimate?

so the mighty army of luxemburg invades belgium, puts up a new governement, and i take up arms. this would mean i dont have any rights at all because i fight for an outdated governement?

thats such a load of crap...
 
Anybody who rebels against any establishment can be declared to have no rights because they're openly confronting a ruling body.

Would American Revolutionairies be any less demonized as the Iraqi insurgents?

Besides, Geneva doesn't apply to terrorists and rebels, because it was made as an agreement between nations that recognized proper military conduct. Since terrorists and rebels aren't members of any established or recognized military body, they aren't entitled to protection under Geneva.

Whether or not it's bad form, though, to treat non-military combatants like shit is another matter entirely.
 
Am I the only one whom this agreement eerily reminds of the Hitler-Mussolini Pact of Steel?
 
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