Inside the Vault - Alan Nanes

[Sorrow]

I dunno, should I ask Boyarsky or Cain?

Damn, it would be nice to know which of his statements (especially those about EC Comics) are true and which are false.

But it's still just speculation, where you have been stating it as fact.

I haven't been stating it as a fact confirmed by developers. I was stating my perception of Fallout's style being similar to tabletop miniature games (both the perspective and size of characters) in opposition to a style that isn't similar (Fallout 3's FPP view).

Whenever Fallout's perspective was an intentional stylisation or a functional choice or adhering to certain tradition, it does resemble a tabletop miniature game and shares with it the certain aesthetic qualities, which distinguish it from games like Morrowind, Oblivion, Operation Flashpoint, etc.

Simply, recent rise of the enemy ideology of "innovation", "immersion" and recreation of "reality" requires a counter-ideology which praises other qualities represented by tabletop games and tabletop miniature games.
While FPP games always create something inferior to real world - in terms of interaction, field of view (tunnel vision), range of motions and graphics, following the convention of tabletop miniature games allows to create terrain for whole cities, all characters being represented beautiful animated miniatures, insides of houses featuring charming miniature chairs, tables, rugs and stoves and computer effects like movies, music, animation, etc.

What draws me to Fallout's graphics is the same thing that draws me to tabletop miniature games like Warhammer.
Except that Fallout has more of it.

 

[xdarkyrex]

Field of view is my number one complaint about FPP games.

the rest I can deal with, it just feels like your playing a game, not a real-life simulator.

But I would LOVVVEEEE a game that can work on a better field of view (VR visor).
I don't see that happening any time soon though.



What I don't grasp is... why would you want to be a miniature instead of NOT being a miniature?

 

[Vault 69er]

Why do you assume that everybody wants to "be" their character?
I myself prefer to see my role as the "guiding force" of my character. I'm them, but I'm me at the same time. I'm also a narcissist when it comes to my characters so I like to *see* them.
FPP just kills that for me.

 

[Sorrow]

What I don't grasp is... why would you want to be a miniature instead of NOT being a miniature?

Because miniatures are charming. If I wanted to "be" someone and perceive a great detailed world from FPP perspective I would go for a walk .

 

[xdarkyrex]

I would go for a walk .

If you live in a a setting anything like fallout, I envy you more than you can imagine.

 

[Sorrow]

I still prefer my world when I go for a walk. It has trees .

 

[whirlingdervish]

I'm also a narcissist when it comes to my characters so I like to *see* them.
FPP just kills that for me.

I feel a similar way about FPP.

I enjoy FPS games, but only multiplayer against other real people that I can see running around me. I also cannot play FPS games unless I can clearly see my weapon and my hands at all times.

If I don't get to see something that's part of my character, I get this bizarre floaty feeling like I'm just not connected to the game world at all.

 

[Vault 69er]

If you live in a a setting anything like fallout, I envy you more than you can imagine.

I don't know about where Sorrow lives but you should see some of the more run down areas in London.. they make Fallout look like Disneyland.

 

[xdarkyrex]

If you live in a a setting anything like fallout, I envy you more than you can imagine.

I don't know about where Sorrow lives but you should see some of the more run down areas in London.. they make Fallout look like Disneyland.

Ummm, any muties?

 

[Vault 69er]

If you live in a a setting anything like fallout, I envy you more than you can imagine.

I don't know about where Sorrow lives but you should see some of the more run down areas in London.. they make Fallout look like Disneyland.

Ummm, any muties?

Well, I'm pretty sure the guy right next door to me is a Ghoul.

 

[Sorrow]

If I don't get to see something that's part of my character, I get this bizarre floaty feeling like I'm just not connected to the game world at all.

Me too. Generally FPP games feel very impersonal to me.

Also, as I said before, I like the aesthetic aspects of miniature games enhanced by possibilities of computer to - the whole "being in game" conception is completely alien to me.

 

[xdarkyrex]

If I don't get to see something that's part of my character, I get this bizarre floaty feeling like I'm just not connected to the game world at all.

Me too. Generally FPP games feel very impersonal to me.

Also, as I said before, I like the aesthetic aspects of miniature games enhanced by possibilities of computer to - the whole "being in game" conception is completely alien to me.

Not much of an escapist, eh?

To each their own.

I do admit, I like rule structures llike in P&P games, and thats one thing I'm a tad disappointed about.

 

[Vault 69er]

See, again you're assuming that immersion only means FPP and "being" the character.
I get immersed in the world, in my character's journey. Too much sometimes, I hate it when it all has to end. But still, I become more immersed seeing them in action than pretending I'm really there in some convoluted fashion.
Think about it - you're not seeing through their eyes in FPP, you're seeing from a camera just in front of them. You see their arms.. not your arms. How's that any more immersive than seeing their body?

 

[xdarkyrex]

See, again you're assuming that immersion only means FPP and "being" the character.
I get immersed in the world, in my character's journey. Too much sometimes, I hate it when it all has to end. But still, I become more immersed seeing them in action than pretending I'm really there in some convoluted fashion.
Think about it - you're not seeing through their eyes in FPP, you're seeing from a camera just in front of them. You see their arms.. not your arms. How's that any more immersive than seeing their body?

http://www.degeneratepress.com/travel/italy_1999/images/obelisk.jpg
http://www.deviantart.com/deviation/20125872/
http://www.pinktentacle.com/images/neo_ruins_2.jpg
http://www.pinktentacle.com/images/neo_ruins_3.jpg

I find this beautiful.


From a camera from the sky above... it loses its power.
Perspective can make a huge difference when it comes to the artistic aspect of a thing. Just ask a photographer.

This is why I also enjoy 3rd person perspective (from behind, I mean), because it allows me to be somewhat disembodied, but still seeing from the perspective of my character.

 

[Vault 69er]

Don't get me wrong, I like a good view too. That's why I like games with dynamic cameras like NWN2 and Spellforce. I can take in the vistas, take pretty closeup shots of my character and when it comes down to the nitty gritty I go for the isometric view and can move around with the mouse instead of using WASD to go every-bloody-where.
Purely iso games I enjoy too. Purely FPP on the other hand.. not so much. It feels restrictive to me.

 

[xdarkyrex]

Don't get me wrong, I like a good view too. That's why I like games with dynamic cameras like NWN2 and Spellforce. I can take in the vistas, take pretty closeup shots of my character and when it comes down to the nitty gritty I go for the isometric view and can move around with the mouse instead of using WASD to go every-bloody-where.
Purely iso games I enjoy too. Purely FPP on the other hand.. not so much. It feels restrictive to me.

I think we may have come to that insurmountable point of debate... artistic preference

I also enjoy a good iso game. Obviously, considering I'm here at a fallout forum. But it seems we just have a different preference when it comes to what we find most visually stimulating.

I love the look of iso games to death... but they lack those moments of "O-M-G" when you see a breathtaking sunset rendered in 3d, or are standing on a vista overlooking a ruined city with blasted skyscrapers rising up in all their desolate glory.

 

[Sorrow]

I get immersed in the world, in my character's journey. Too much sometimes, I hate it when it all has to end. But still, I become more immersed seeing them in action than pretending I'm really there in some convoluted fashion.

Me too. I really feel connected to the world in miniature on computer screen - I always liked miniature things like military models, toy soldiers, doll houses, Warhammer miniatures, etc.
I like to click on the miniature weather vane in Shady Sands and read it's description. The same for chairs, stoves, rugs, computers, curtains, toilets, beds...
They are so cute ...

 

[xdarkyrex]

I like to click on the miniature weather vane in Shady Sands and read it's description. The same for chairs, stoves, rugs, computers, curtains, toilets, beds...
They are so cute ...

A little off topic, but how badass would it be if you could still see item descriptions by pointing your targeting reticle at things in the new fallout and then clicking the "use" button?


Damn somebody go put that in the wish list thread

 

[Kyuu]

A little off topic, but how badass would it be if you could still see item descriptions by pointing your targeting reticle at things in the new fallout and then clicking the "use" button?


Damn somebody go put that in the wish list thread

No no no no. You're forgetting that bloom and shiny next-gen graffix have rendered such things obsolete. After all, you can see that weather vane for yourself and don't need an archaic text description, because, you know, in the original Fallouts you couldn't see that weather vane for yourself and *needed* the text description.

Hehe, rendered. I'm so clever...

 

[iridium_ionizer]

Sure the question “Where did Fallout designers get their ideas for perspective?” is an interesting one. But really, a better question would be, what would the original Fallout look like if Interplay of 1997 was transplanted into 2007 with the same resources that Bethesda has?

Likely it would remarkably similar to what Fallout did. The Alternate Universe (AU) Fallout would be in 3D and have the advanced graphics of today. It would use first-person perspective for dialogue segments. Why? Because the dialogue gameplay demands it. You need to see the faces to respond properly.

Likewise with the action. There were successful real-time strategy and first-person shooters in 1997, but they chose to go with turn-based combat. That choice in gameplay dictated the perspective. With today’s technology one can imagine a multitude of camera options – third person with panning, “action movie-esque” sequences showing the other guys shooting and then your character getting hit – but the bottom-line is that isometric is the simplest way to conceptualize and thus play in turn-based combat.

“Immersion” is an overly hyped buzzword that marketing types love to hear. They know if people buy into it, then they have a sure-fire hit. It’s easy for a well-financed company to make a good-looking game. It’s hard to make a good-playing game. So marketing people (who definitely are influencing what developers and reviewers are saying) emphasize the immersion. Why would they emphasize the game-play that may not pan out? It’s just like how “cinematic” was the buzzword 2 years ago.

And the irony is that an isometric perspective is at least as cinematic as a first-person perspective. For every first-person perspective shot in film (see Crank, Doom, Being John Malkovich, Psycho, The Shining, etc.) how many crane shots (aka isometric) have there been? Lots. To Live and Die in L.A., The Player, High Noon, Gone With the Wind, and countless others. It is a staple of modern cinema, so why isn't it a staple (or at least an option) of modern gaming?