man, get ready to face the ruthless/cruel/pitiless Sander machine.
Interplay Financials
- Thread starter Brother None
- Start date
I can now just imagine now, those randomly walking Enclave soldiers re-spawning every minute... and running every where kids saying lol/wtf/fu all around.
This games should be call MMOG I don't see any Role playing in them. Well maybe except of WoW.. I heard that it got some RPG servers.
This games should be call MMOG I don't see any Role playing in them. Well maybe except of WoW.. I heard that it got some RPG servers.
No, that's not even close to what you said.Kukident said:
You were talking about hating it when people have a negative outlook and don't think about solutions. This whole bit you just typed is something you only now typed up.
But this argument, interestingly, assumes that I hadn't thought about workarounds and just took a negative view for the sake of it, which is bullshit because I have thought it through extensively and repetitively (and argued it to the full extent a couple of times throughout these forums as well).
It was a simplistic response to an equally simplistic whine about having a negative outlook.Kukident said:
Eh, okay. Good luck with not posting, then.Kukident said:
I always wonder why people feel the need to warn us that they're not going to be posting anymore, though.
Sander said:
Internet.
Kukident is a good poster, though, shame to see him leave. And if he had a legitimate complaint I'd do something about it, but if you don't like the tone of NMA's rhetoric, then ok, not the place for you. That's hardly reason for us to change, tho'
sai | GLYPH
First time out of the vault
@ Sander
I'll concede that a single player game experience is contradictory to the mmo design theory... obviously.
But in translating fallout to another genre...
Concerning Time: The experience of time is two-fold. Visceral, and cognitive. In a single player game, both can synchronize, since both can be centered around one single player. In multiplayer, regarding the travel-lag, you can still provide the visceral passing of time: day/night lighting cycles.
Concerning Team Play: I was under the impression that Fallout was about trying to recreate the tabletop gaming experience as best as possible. Group involvement was rather characteristic of this kind of game... maybe? Despite the fact that you, in Fallout, do not play with other PCs, there are still other inhabitants of the world - some of whom will even join you. So I don't see how team play in itself is anti-fallout, but the application of it could very well be.
Where I see the major problem with a Fallout mmo, is consequence. There is no way to design a consequential world in an mmo environment unless it's overly simplified.
I'll concede that a single player game experience is contradictory to the mmo design theory... obviously.
But in translating fallout to another genre...
Concerning Time: The experience of time is two-fold. Visceral, and cognitive. In a single player game, both can synchronize, since both can be centered around one single player. In multiplayer, regarding the travel-lag, you can still provide the visceral passing of time: day/night lighting cycles.
Concerning Team Play: I was under the impression that Fallout was about trying to recreate the tabletop gaming experience as best as possible. Group involvement was rather characteristic of this kind of game... maybe? Despite the fact that you, in Fallout, do not play with other PCs, there are still other inhabitants of the world - some of whom will even join you. So I don't see how team play in itself is anti-fallout, but the application of it could very well be.
Where I see the major problem with a Fallout mmo, is consequence. There is no way to design a consequential world in an mmo environment unless it's overly simplified.
sai | GLYPH said:
One of the cardinal rules of tabletop gaming is to avoid splitting the group. In an MMO splittage will be a given. I was thinking that the time paradox thing could be solved by abstracting away time as a factor in the game. You'd need to: 1) not provide any in-game way of telling time (PIPBoy resting = out) and 2) remove day/night cycles and 3) studiously avoid making references to time in player discussions ("What've you been doing since last time?" "Oh, I shot a scorpion over there and then had time over for a sandwich." "OK, myself I went to New Reno and back."). This is obviously all extremely silly.
sai | GLYPH said:
For one thing, people are supposed to be rare and pretty non-restockable in a post-apocalyptic world. If a player goes on a rampage and kills everyone in the Hub, people wouldn't magically move in to take their place. So the Hub would officially have to be a ghost town from then on and all the design work spent on it would have gone to waste.
OR everyone could just repop at the next spawn cycle, giving that nice Fallouty "actions have consequences and the world is real" vibe.
Per said:
It is? You should tell on of my MERP DMs that.
That said, the argument that MMOs help on the group-based elements of pen and paper just...doesn't work. Cooperative gameplay is fine for that, thousands of idiots typing n00b in one world isn't.
Tangent --> Hate Speech
Tangent --> Hate Speech
Pardon me while I cherry pick this road apple, and roll it into a little ball and scarab beetle it on a side track.
Kukident:
Kukident:
Kukident:
Look at that "h" word.
If you noticed the "h" word's rise in American Political smear campaigns.
Perhaps you saw - a - status quo,
likely white-y descendants of Klu Klux Klan,
'good' *christian* conservatives one and all,
after white washing their "isms",
after invoking 'black fear', 'red fear', and 'queer fear',
successfully crucify any competition as "haters".
Some minds can never reconcile the reality of facts, much less differences of opinion.
Can't get over it, or under it, or cut a deal, and then move on to the next ... difference of opinion.
A deep felt 'go to hell' is truer in conviction than a church mouse's curse, tarring others as 'hate speech'.
The hate speech *schtick*, is a line of political rhetoric regurgitated by manipulators or their stooges.
The hypocrisy and hubris of it's moral source is well known,
and the hate speech *schtick*, the hate speech patter, the hate speech --lie -- is the parting shot of losers.
Look at that "h" word. A veiled threat.
And if my observation doesn't apply to your world experience,
consider how my point of view, my world experience, has established my observation.
Consider.
No threat there.
//////////////////////
*Massive* Decentralization
BN,
perhaps the next MO fashion swing will be less a Diablo battle-net, and more a DM'd co-op.
Recruit the DM's from the pool of internet forum admin's .
The sheep can role play massively breasted elven archers.
The shepherds that shear the sheep can live large as 'mean daddy's', as DM's.
Subscriptions -- submissions --- 'sub' in there somewhere ... sense lucrative tingle ...
Win - Win?
4too
Tangent --> Hate Speech
Pardon me while I cherry pick this road apple, and roll it into a little ball and scarab beetle it on a side track.
Kukident:
Kukident:
Kukident:
Look at that "h" word.
If you noticed the "h" word's rise in American Political smear campaigns.
Perhaps you saw - a - status quo,
likely white-y descendants of Klu Klux Klan,
'good' *christian* conservatives one and all,
after white washing their "isms",
after invoking 'black fear', 'red fear', and 'queer fear',
successfully crucify any competition as "haters".
Some minds can never reconcile the reality of facts, much less differences of opinion.
Can't get over it, or under it, or cut a deal, and then move on to the next ... difference of opinion.
A deep felt 'go to hell' is truer in conviction than a church mouse's curse, tarring others as 'hate speech'.
The hate speech *schtick*, is a line of political rhetoric regurgitated by manipulators or their stooges.
The hypocrisy and hubris of it's moral source is well known,
and the hate speech *schtick*, the hate speech patter, the hate speech --lie -- is the parting shot of losers.
Look at that "h" word. A veiled threat.
And if my observation doesn't apply to your world experience,
consider how my point of view, my world experience, has established my observation.
Consider.
No threat there.
//////////////////////
*Massive* Decentralization
BN,
perhaps the next MO fashion swing will be less a Diablo battle-net, and more a DM'd co-op.
Recruit the DM's from the pool of internet forum admin's .
The sheep can role play massively breasted elven archers.
The shepherds that shear the sheep can live large as 'mean daddy's', as DM's.
Subscriptions -- submissions --- 'sub' in there somewhere ... sense lucrative tingle ...
Win - Win?
4too
Re: Tangent --> Hate Speech
So what you're saying is that "they are haters" is often used by radicals of whatever sort to dismiss the other side?
Yeah, I guess that's true. Me, I just find it amusing that several communities get away with treating NMA much worse than NMA treats anyone, simply because our opinion is the less popular one. Simply because, at the end of the day, we're critical of a game while they prefer to be drowned in hype.
Hypocrisy indeed.
Well, they tried that with the DM client for NWN. And Dungeons & Dragons 4th edition will come with some kind of electronic client that'll allow you to play a D&D session online, on a kind of simplified map interface.
So it's been done, but not very successfully so far. I think part of that is that people who do this ignore the differences between computers and tabletop gameplay. If you want to emulate tabletop sessions, you're going to have to scrutinize the difference between the media better than BioWare did.
4too said:
So what you're saying is that "they are haters" is often used by radicals of whatever sort to dismiss the other side?
Yeah, I guess that's true. Me, I just find it amusing that several communities get away with treating NMA much worse than NMA treats anyone, simply because our opinion is the less popular one. Simply because, at the end of the day, we're critical of a game while they prefer to be drowned in hype.
Hypocrisy indeed.
4too said:
Well, they tried that with the DM client for NWN. And Dungeons & Dragons 4th edition will come with some kind of electronic client that'll allow you to play a D&D session online, on a kind of simplified map interface.
So it's been done, but not very successfully so far. I think part of that is that people who do this ignore the differences between computers and tabletop gameplay. If you want to emulate tabletop sessions, you're going to have to scrutinize the difference between the media better than BioWare did.
NWN was pretty succesful, though. But even there most Persistent Worlds were nothing more than miniature MMOs, with I think 60 people max on-line and 'DMs' only paying attention to the core few they always knew.Brother None said:
sai | GLYPH
First time out of the vault
Per said:
I wouldn't call it splittage. I'd call it frequency. In real life it's pretty hard to find people that want to play a table top game. Therefore, you're likely to end up playing with the same group over and over. In a multiplayer settings, the sample is increased, so your choice of companions may be more frequent. In this situaton however, players still tend to stick to a constant group - electronic bonding, how lovely.
Per said:
The issue here isn't game mechanics. It's fourth wall. However, I don't see how a relative perspectival incongruency is that awful of a fourth-wall breaker if:
1) All the mechanics and visceral impact are well maintained.
2) The only time it comes up is in explicit discussion
I don't see why that's reason to cut it all out and proclaim it a failure, unless you just really want it to be a failure.
The only mechanical issue here is fast-travel time matching up with 'real-time'. And that can be solved easily by isolating fast travel time to show passage only, without numeric qualification.
I really don't see how this is a much worse 4th wall breaker than say... having to deal with the interface or input devices.
Per said:
So you're agreeing with me on this one. (Why do I still feel like I'm being schooled?
)"Daddy, Are We There Yet?"
"Daddy, Are We There Yet?"
@ sai | GLYPH
Interesting, "4th Wall" not a familiar term for me, and I associate 4 with the "4th Dimension", t = time.
Google "4th Wall" and see it's stage theatre roots. Pseudo 'wall' between audience and actors.
[School is never *out*.]
Familiar with concept of 'window of perception' and am fascinated by time perception - breaking - this mental construct,
whether it be visualized as a wall or a window. Will not stray further into the immersion thing here.
MMO's have some real experiential boundaries.
Travel in space is travel in time. Time travel. Burn all four dimensions.
Experiential boundary, an inertial factor relevant to MMO's is WAITING.
Waiting and the friction and MASS of boredom. All, all, all, delta all happening in real space and time, the now.
Now, the individual's Interest is lost in participating in the theatre of the game by the burden of boredom.
The friction and inertia between perceptions burns energy.
Windowing pierced by old/young/unborn 'delta' - t -.
Will not stray into psycho babble, but offer up the common experience of auto travel, as -- and later -- with kids ---> "are we there yet?"
4too
"Daddy, Are We There Yet?"
@ sai | GLYPH
Interesting, "4th Wall" not a familiar term for me, and I associate 4 with the "4th Dimension", t = time.
Google "4th Wall" and see it's stage theatre roots. Pseudo 'wall' between audience and actors.
[School is never *out*.]
Familiar with concept of 'window of perception' and am fascinated by time perception - breaking - this mental construct,
whether it be visualized as a wall or a window. Will not stray further into the immersion thing here.
MMO's have some real experiential boundaries.
Travel in space is travel in time. Time travel. Burn all four dimensions.
Experiential boundary, an inertial factor relevant to MMO's is WAITING.
Waiting and the friction and MASS of boredom. All, all, all, delta all happening in real space and time, the now.
Now, the individual's Interest is lost in participating in the theatre of the game by the burden of boredom.
The friction and inertia between perceptions burns energy.
Windowing pierced by old/young/unborn 'delta' - t -.
Will not stray into psycho babble, but offer up the common experience of auto travel, as -- and later -- with kids ---> "are we there yet?"
4too
sai | GLYPH
First time out of the vault
Re: "Daddy, Are We There Yet?"
And I'm saying experience is a dichotomy. Very often, satisfying the visceral alleviates the burden of satisfying the cognitive. And in a situation where it doesn't insult the user, I don't see how it's such a huge problem.
It's a game. It's smoke and mirrors to begin with.
Only cognitively.
Well, I didn't mind it in Fallout 1 and 2.
4too said:
And I'm saying experience is a dichotomy. Very often, satisfying the visceral alleviates the burden of satisfying the cognitive. And in a situation where it doesn't insult the user, I don't see how it's such a huge problem.
It's a game. It's smoke and mirrors to begin with.
4too said:
Only cognitively.
4too said:
Well, I didn't mind it in Fallout 1 and 2.
Briosafreak
Lived Through the Heat Death
He was just saying that he didn't knew the concept, where did you get that idea?
sai | GLYPH
First time out of the vault
Briosafreak said:
Ooooooh ok! I thought he was telling me to look it up, which paints the sentence before it in a somewhat mocking tone. My mistake.