Iraq anyone? or North Korea?

welsh

Junkmaster
I am surprised that no one has brought this up yet.

We had some interesting posts on this topic, and a few on North Korea as well, but now, since the new board- nada.

So what do you think?

IS the US fucking it up or doing the best it can do? What should the US do?

What about the Euros? What should they do or not do? The UN?

Nuke or ignore North Korea?
 
Disregarding the fact that some of these regimes should be put down, I'm worried that the USA seem to take the "world police" role and do what they like.

I mean look at Iraq, USA and UK claimed they had alot of weapons yet they haven't found anything "big" in Iraq, which is really quite funny.

North Korea, hmm..I still find it amazing that people still hang on to the old communism, it's not like it's worked for any goverment that long. They will probably fall within 50 years or so, probably earlier..
 
I was mostly for the war against Iraq, and the way it went wasn't disastrous either, but the US does need to get its act together now...And the weapons of mass-destruction bs got tiring after a while.

North-Korea...is not being handled well, but it isn't being handled badly either.

JP Balkenende (our prime-minister) met with Bush just a few days ago, and suddenly Bush decides to ask the UN for help. Yeah, baby, Balkenende rules.
 
Okay, I'm taking a risk here at responding to politics but keep in mind that I've only just started a world history class and that I've keep my head above most news, so I'm not just a completely ignorant kid. Keep in mind this is coming from a high-school kid.

I'm comparing North Korea's situation with another one in the past: the Cuban Missile Crisis. We (the U.S.) were lucky to have Kennedy's strong and prudent leadership. With the Soviets installing nuclear missiles in Cuba, there was little doubt that they were aimed at the United States. With the potential of major loss of life, any brash decision on Kennedy's part would have been disastrous. But the measures he made were careful. He placed a blockade and presented the Soviets with an ultimatum to back down. And Kruschev folded. Thus, we did not loose the lives of our naval men or the innocents in Florida.

Comparatively, the North Korea situation is slightly less dangerous to the United States at least. It's unlikely that North Korea has a rocket that is capable to reach the west coast. And its suggested that North Korea only had enough fuel rods to convert into one or two nuclear weapons. It can be argued that North Korea's claim for nuclear armament for personal defense is justified, since India other countries have done the same. It's a damaging and tense situation in Asian countries situated around Korea but at least China's Hu Jintao is setting up peace negotiations. Thus so, I don't understand the gun-ho attitude that some Americans are taking with North Korea.

In a potentially more dangerous situation, John F. Kennedy did not jump the gun and endanger lives. I don't know if Bush, in all his eminent wisdom, is likely to prove more prudent.
 
Hey Gunslinger-

If you get to do a paper on the Cuban Missile Crisis for your World History class, or just are interested in this and want to read more-

Check out-
Graham Allison- Essence of Decision (for an analysis)
Robert F. Kennedy- Thirteen Days (for the insider view)
Tomas Diez Acosta- October 1962: The 'Missile' Crisis As Seen from Cuba (for the other side's story)
and the chapter from Donald Kagan's Origins of War and the Preservation of Peace for a comparison that links the Missile Crisis with the Second and First World Wars and the Pelopenesian and Punic Wars.

Of these, I think you'd like Kagan's book best.
 
Gunslinger said:
I'm comparing North Korea's situation with another one in the past: the Cuban Missile Crisis. We (the U.S.) were lucky to have Kennedy's strong and prudent leadership. With the Soviets installing nuclear missiles in Cuba, there was little doubt that they were aimed at the United States. With the potential of major loss of life, any brash decision on Kennedy's part would have been disastrous. But the measures he made were careful. He placed a blockade and presented the Soviets with an ultimatum to back down. And Kruschev folded. Thus, we did not loose the lives of our naval men or the innocents in Florida

Holy tapdancing Frith in the Sky...Is this the crap you get fed in American High School?

That doesn't even resemble the truth, as far as I know. Kennedy was a terrible president and one of the most agressive ones too, most others wouldn't have replied to the Cuban threat with a dangerously timed counter-strike. And lest we forget, Kennedy is also fully responsible for the Pig Bay fiasco...

It's a matter of nuance, but a heavy matter noneoftheless. I mean, Kennedy reinforced the Berlin troops, let "Cuban revolutionaries" invade Cuba at Pig Bay and taunted someone with a knife of his throat with a blockade...

When you look at it carefully, the guy was really, REALLY lucky not to have started WW 3, he came close enough several times.

Kennedy is, as far as I'm concerned, one of the worst presidents the USA has ever seen. There is only one person that stopped the Cuba missile crisis from turning into WW 3, and that Kroetsjev.

"Folded", indeed...
 
I support idea of N.Corea having nukes only to protect themselves since it is obvious that US decided to crush down any resistance left in the world.Soviets,Iraqis are gone.Only independent states left are Iran,N.Corea,China,India & Pacistan.
As for Kennedy...well he showed his real face with Pig Bay (i am suprised they dont teach you about that is school) and WWIII was narowly avoided.Later the American propagand will fed milions with "truth" that Kennedy was angel sent by god and Krustchev just a schizophrenic pussy.
 
Kharn said:
Holy tapdancing Frith in the Sky...Is this the crap you get fed in American High School?

That doesn't even resemble the truth, as far as I know. Kennedy was a terrible president and one of the most agressive ones too, most others wouldn't have replied to the Cuban threat with a dangerously timed counter-strike. And lest we forget, Kennedy is also fully responsible for the Pig Bay fiasco...

It's a matter of nuance, but a heavy matter noneoftheless. I mean, Kennedy reinforced the Berlin troops, let "Cuban revolutionaries" invade Cuba at Pig Bay and taunted someone with a knife of his throat with a blockade...

When you look at it carefully, the guy was really, REALLY lucky not to have started WW 3, he came close enough several times.

Kennedy is, as far as I'm concerned, one of the worst presidents the USA has ever seen. There is only one person that stopped the Cuba missile crisis from turning into WW 3, and that Kroetsjev.

"Folded", indeed...
Holy Crap and a Dash of Horse Radish- Is this the crap you get fed in the Netherlands?

Just kidding, actually neither is quite right.

Kennedy wasn't quite the macho cool guy that Gunslinger protrays nor is he the aggressive warmonger that Kharn is depicting. Actually, if you read Kagan, you start to get the impression that Kennedy is a bit of a wimp, and because he was kind of wimpy with regard to Russian moves on Berlin and botches the Bay of Pigs, he's got to come off strong on Cuba. WHether this is for international reasons of domestic is, in my opinion, a bit questionable.

However, one of the things that Kennedy is remembered for during the Crisis was leaving the room. Some people interpret this as clever management- letting his select committee confer without his oversight and thus biasing the discussion. IN fact, Kennedy was barfing in the bathroom because he was so damn scared.

But, in response to Kharn, the committee that Kennedy pulls together is quite belligerent and wants to go with the air strike. Had there been certainty of a strategic air strike, Kennedy might have had little choice but he is remembered for having thought a preemptive strike was wrong in this case. "SO now I know how the Germans felt before Poland," or some such quote is traced to him.

It is actually McNamara who is one of the first people to say, very early that in terms of the strategic balance the missiles in Cuba don't really matter, since the US has missiles in Turkey, thus balanced.

The problem however, is that the missiles are in Cuba, and this means a tow hold in the Americas. One can easily see how this fits into a "domino thinking" kind of mindset which is scary when one considers that in the early 1960s the prospect of war was often though an inevitable conclusion to the strategic balance.

Kharn said:
When you look at it carefully, the guy was really, REALLY lucky not to have started WW 3, he came close enough several times....

In fact painfully close to World War 3. The plans were to invade if the Russians didn't back down. However, apparently Americans were not aware that the Russian troops on the field had tactical nuclear weapons and prepared to use them against any invasion force. However, there was a strong belief that should the US strike at the missiles in Cuba, the russians would hit the missiles in Turkey. If so, then World War 3 is just down the path-an attack on Turkey is an Article 5 violation to NATO- and bang zoom we go nuclear!

So in a sense Kharn is right, Kennedy is leading the country down the path to war. But in a sense Gunslinger is right. Rather then act on the belligerence of most of his closest advisors, Kennedy decides to take a mid-step- the blocade thus offering time to the Russians to think this through while signalling a commitment to do something.

Whether Kennedy acts out of strength or weakness, depends on your view. Certainly there is a lot of sloppiness on both sides, like when the US destroyers depthcharge Russian submarines (because that's standard operating procedure!)

Certainly the Russians back down and a compromise is reached which tends to set a rather interesting side benefit. Through compromise, neither super power is willing to push the other to far in the region of greatest interest (Europe) and the tensions begin to move abroad- to Asia and then other hot spots in the developing world.

I think the next time the US comes this close is 1973 during the Yom Kippur War.

Interesting note, there is a regular conference, in Cuba, where people from both sides
 
Back on Iraq-

Couple news bits caught my eye-

(1) US troops are generally not enforcing the law on the streets of Baghdad. In fact, it seems orders say "hands off." Good idea?

(2) AP news article says that Saddam kept a crew of scientists to make nuclear weapons first chance he got. Does this justify war?

(3) ROTC recruitment for army going down. After 9-11 same ROTC was high (as was general enlistment). Military thinks this is because of the War. First sign of general dissatisfaction and lack of support for the war?

(4) Rumsfeld says no more troops but train Iraqis- former military, police and intelligence, to do the job and get the UN involved. Good idea?

(5) Has the general public gotten apathetic? If so why?
 
Welsh, I was being a bit over-the-top, to balance, the same way I shout "Lord of the Rings movies suck!" whenever someone is mindlessely fellating it, although I did like those flicks.

Interesting note, there is a regular conference, in Cuba, where people from both sides

... do what?

(1) US troops are generally not enforcing the law on the streets of Baghdad. In fact, it seems orders say "hands off." Good idea?

I don't think it's relevant whether or not US troops enforce the law because a) they would be unable to, seriously and b) if you were the law yourself, what does it matter who enforces it?

(2) AP news article says that Saddam kept a crew of scientists to make nuclear weapons first chance he got. Does this justify war?

No. Duh.

(3) ROTC recruitment for army going down. After 9-11 same ROTC was high (as was general enlistment). Military thinks this is because of the War. First sign of general dissatisfaction and lack of support for the war?

...I...seriously don't care. Sorry. European. I believe something like 80% of the Dutch people have a "serious lack of trust in President Bush" (Netwerk, few days ago)

(4) Rumsfeld says no more troops but train Iraqis- former military, police and intelligence, to do the job and get the UN involved. Good idea?

Rumsfeld should bloody well shut his gob. Wasn't he supposed to be opposed to UN intervention?

In any case, there's no justification to ask other people to clean up the mess the US made voluntarily (nobody can say this was a "no-choice" scenairo as with Afghanistan), but I know the UN will. They're just softhearted.

It's a good idea, though it would mean a huge breach in the American hold over Iraq...Are you sure Rumsfeld said this?

(5) Has the general public gotten apathetic? If so why?

Yes. Because they do. I mean...c'mon...
 
Aaah, finally an interesting discussion. And all my favorite people (Kharn, Welsh and others) are participating! Splendid! :D

I'm glad USA overthrew Saddam's regime and I think it would be good if they allowed internationalist forces to take over in Iraq. I can think of at least two reasons for this:

1) Presence of multinational troops in Iraq would give Coalition's intervention additional credibility. There would be no grounds on which European hipocrites could accuse USA of illegal occupation of Iraq.

2) Maintaining law and order would be considerably easier if there were more troops.

This military operation has in a way backfired on USA, and Bush's administration in particular. Weapons of mass destruction haven't been located yet, occupation is draining a lot more money from US budget than anticipated, cuts in healthcare and education and constant casualties in Iraq have detrimential effect on public support for the intervention and for republican regime in general. Still, overthrowing of Saddam is likely to ensure that people of Iraq have better future, and considering how much oil that country posseses, that future will be very bright and could arrive sooner than anyone hoped. What's more, when USA chose to intervene with disregard of decisions of US Council, they shook the very grounds of this useless and incompetent organization. With some luck, this might even lead to complete cancellation of UN and its replacement with a more competent and efficient organization. Some of you might be shocked by my grim views of international peace organization, but there are many reasons why I find UN to be nothing but a waste of funds. For example, this 'peace' organization never managed to stop a single war in its whole history. Examples: North Korea, Vietnam, Falkland, Middle East, Iraq, Croatia, Bosnia, Kosovo, Iraq again... Whether its a minor local conflict or an international war, UN has completely and utterly failed in its role of a peacekeeping organization. I can tell you from my personal experience - here in Croatia, UN troopers, with all their tanks and weapons, were the laughing stock of both our and enemy soldiers. The unit were my friend's dad was used to engage in skirmishes with the enemy right before their eyes, within borders of what was supposed to be a demilitarized area! Not only does UN fail in its peacekeeping duties, but other UN's organizations such as UNICEF, UNESCO, WHO, FAO and others are completely inefficient in performance of their tasks. Want more examples? More than 50 million people die of starvation every year. Nothing was done to prevent the destruction of city of Dubrovnik by the aggressor during the war in Croatia (that city is supposedly protected by UNESCO, mind you). Nobody intervened when talibans destroyed millenia old statues of Buddha in Afghanistan. With all FAO's help, African countries still have neolithic agriculture and their people are starving. I ask you, what is the purpose of existence for an organization so weak and incompetent? Hopefully, it won't be long until its shut down completely, because financing a bureaucracy so huge and inefficient is a waste of money that we could spend far more productively.

As for North Korea issue, I think any present action against them would be rushed. It would most likely provoke China and possibly cause them to invade Taiwan. A war between America and China would be inevitable. Even though USA would most likely win, simply because China would be isolated and with no hope of enduring a prolonged war, there would always be a possibility of a nuclear conflict, which would truly be a disaster for everyone... except us Fallout fans, because we would finally get a chance to experience our fantasies in real life. :wink: I believe USA should wait a few more years to see how situation evolves. Democratic changes are likely to happen in China, and if not, North Korean communist regime isn't likely to last much longer - North Korea can't survive in complete isolation like it did in the past 50 years (as their economy is completely ruined and its people are starving), so it will have to open up to the world, primarily to its democratic neighbour - South Korea. End of isolation means influx of information and knowledge, as well as improvement of life conditions. Sociologically, a massive unrest or rebellion is most likely to happen when life standard is improving. So you see, the current regime in North Korea will collapse eventually, and it will no longer pose a serious threat.

What worries me more is Taiwan, and Chinese intentions concerning that matter. In my opinion, USA should protect Taiwan at any cost. If China is crazy enough to annex that island even at the cost of war against America, let it be so. They will completely lose their credibility and whole world will stand side by side with USA, united against China. But I sincerely doubt even China would undertake such a radical move. They keep openly threatening to take hostile action against Taiwan, but they've been doing so for the past fifty years.

About JFK, some of his decisions regarding foreign policies were rushed and very dangerous, but I admire his courage, determination and honesty. He was the only American president in 20th century that tried to shut down Federal Reserves and print interest-free, debt-free money which would be used to finance the state budget. Ever since 1911. (when Federal Reserves were founded) US state debt to the banks constantly kept increasing, and in mid-nineties it exceeded 5 trillion dollars. Kennedy simply wanted to change this trend and put the bankers out of business. Secret international society of bankers used their influence over CIA and certain circles in US military to carry out his assassination. Interestingly, Richard Nixon, Jimmy Carter and George Bush Sr. all have connections with the assassination. For example, at time of murder Richard Nixon was on a plane flying out of Dallas, and Bush's phone number was found in the address book of Jack Ruby's friend. What's even more interesting is that last president (before Kennedy) who started to print interest-free money (the popular "greenbacks") was Abraham Lincoln, and we all know how his life ended. Here's one paragraph of an article in London Times which appeared shortly after first greenbacks were introduced:

"If that mischievous financial policy, which had its origin in the North American Republic, should become indurated down to a fixture, then that Government will furnish its own money without cost. It will pay off debts and be without a debt. It will have all the money necessary to carry on its commerce. It will become prosperous beyond precedent in the history of civilized governments of the world. The brains and the wealth of all countries will go to North America. That government must be destroyed or it will destroy every monarchy on the globe."

Need I mention that UK government (which was likely under complete control of the secret bankers' society, after all, English were at that time known as "bankers of the world") supported the civil war in America, and the sole reason why it didn't openly join the Confederacy and help them defeat Lincoln's Union is because it would have caused massive unrest and displeasure in United Kingdom - namely, the people of United Kingdom were strongly opposed to slavery and they simply wouldn't put up with their government allying their country with those that condone it.

Ah, but I got a little carried away with my conspiracy theories. Anyway, what I wanted to say about JFK is that he by all means wasn't the worst president in the history of America. He was simply a little clumsy with foreign policies (like many other presidents - look at Bush Jr.), but his death may have been one of the worst tragedies that ever befell United States of America, because it further strengthened the grip that various shadowy corporate organizations have over their government.
 
Ratty said:
For example, this 'peace' organization never managed to stop a single war in its whole history. Examples: North Korea, Vietnam, Falkland, Middle East, Iraq, Croatia, Bosnia, Kosovo, Iraq again... Whether its a minor local conflict or an international war, UN has completely and utterly failed in its role of a peacekeeping organization.

You do realise that when the UN succeeds in its role as a peace-keeper, there is no war? Hence you can't say "they failed, because a number of wars DID happen". Research how many wars DIDN'T happen, and then come back.

Of course, numbers on that vary, because you can't be sure if something would've turned into a war. Anyway, it's rediculously oversimplified by stating "the UN failed because this number of wars happened".

Pah. The notion of the UN being replaced is ludicrous at best. The US currently has no power counter-balance, what do you think UN II would look like? Let's say...extended NATO.

"Here is the world, lap dog to the US"

Bah! To even have a spark of hope that a replacement of the UN would be better than current UN is naive at best (no offense)
 
OK Kharn, I'll answer, but I really hope to get people here talking about this rather than to weigh in.

Kharn said:
Welsh, I was being a bit over-the-top, to balance, the same way I shout "Lord of the Rings movies suck!" whenever someone is mindlessely fellating it, although I did like those flicks.

Yeah I know. But as Gunslinger said, in his post, give the poor kid a break.
Kharn said:
... do what?

Just to talk about the crisis, the dangers at present, share ideas, to remember it. That kind of a thing. As I see it- having Americans and Cubans talk rationally about anything is a good thing.

Those poor bastards in Cuba have suffered too damn long.

I don't think it's relevant whether or not US troops enforce the law because a) they would be unable to, seriously and b) if you were the law yourself, what does it matter who enforces it?

Problem is that the US is an occupation force and supposedly there to resolve Iraq's problems. By not doing anything they make themselves seem incompetent to Iraqi's which furthers the impression as an unnecessary occupation force. At the end of the day the Occupation force is either seen as impotent or omnipotent by most Iraqi's (if it something happens its either because the US can't do something or won't do something).

Then you have the cases of Iraqi's getting robbed and shot under the eyes of American troops with guns and then wondering why the Americans do nothing. Doesn't generate much love.

Then is the other problem- by failing to provide security you enhance insecurity among people, and more violence, less investment, less rehabiitation, more problems.

No. Duh.?

Yeah I know. But is that enough to go to war. I mean there are a lot of countries that have people capable of making nuclear weapons. If they paid for the experts from abroad, so what? Is that enough for war?

(3) ROTC recruitment for army going down....First sign of general dissatisfaction and lack of support for the war?

...I...seriously don't care. Sorry. European. I believe something like 80% of the Dutch people have a "serious lack of trust in President Bush" (Netwerk, few days ago)[/quote]

Ok, so this is not so relevant to the Dutch. But here is the issue. The folks most likely to join or go ROTC or enlist are the most patriotic and gungho. Either they do it for adventure or because they are patriotic for a cause or they want a career. Assuming the career kids stay, that enrollment goes down means that the most patriotic or gungho are not willing to risk their necks for something that they don't believe in.

Therefore the group most willing to be activists in support of the war- who are willing to fight the good fight because they buy the argument for going to war, aren't buying it anymore.

It could also mean that the mood of the young people is shifting to the left on this.

(4) Rumsfeld says no more troops but train Iraqis- former military, police and intelligence, to do the job and get the UN involved. Good idea?

Rumsfeld should bloody well shut his gob. Wasn't he supposed to be opposed to UN intervention?[/quote]

Yes, well, I guess when the chief speaks the indians are supposed to listen.


In any case, there's no justification to ask other people to clean up the mess the US made voluntarily (nobody can say this was a "no-choice" scenairo as with Afghanistan), but I know the UN will. They're just softhearted.

It's a good idea, though it would mean a huge breach in the American hold over Iraq...Are you sure Rumsfeld said this??[/quote]

Yes, I am reading an article from the Associated Press that says it (in the last paragraph too!)

I kind of agree in the sense that its the US responsibility for creating this mess. At the same time, I do think this is an interenational issue and probably the UN could handle this better than the US. It seems the UN has more experience at this kind of thing than the US- although the UN record hasn't been perfect either.

However, I think Brosafreak has some thoughts that differ.
Briosafreak?

(5) Has the general public gotten apathetic? If so why?
Kharn said:
Yes. Because they do. I mean...c'mon...

I read an article today about some people from the law school at my university about their perceptions from a recent trip to Iraq where they are trying to help in the creation of more effective "rule of law". But the writer makes an interesting point. A lot of the peace folks in Iraq are really short of the basic needs. It runs from money to office supplies, and a lot of these people have become targets. At the same time most of the pro-peace/anti-war folks who were so active demonstrating have disappeared.

WIth a little effort, the anti-war crowd in the west could offer some help to the peace activists on the ground in Iraq. But their gone or they just don't care.

So it seems like everyone had a chance to demonstrate, yell at Bush or support Bush, and now that these folks really need help, they ain't getting any from anyone. War's over, everyone goes home and if there are people suffering, well, life's tough.

That sucks. Regardless of whether you support or were against the war, whether you are pro_Bush or anti-Bush, there are lots of folks suffering and they ain't getting much in the way of help.

Actually this would be an ideal thing for college students to get involved in. Regardless of what side you took on the war, I think everyone could get behind the idea of peace.
 
welsh said:
OK Kharn, I'll answer, but I really hope to get people here talking about this rather than to weigh in.

Yes yes, let it flow, the subject is interesting enough.

Those poor bastards in Cuba have suffered too damn long.

Huh-huh, going there for some voluntary work in...less than half a year.

Problem is that the US is an occupation force and supposedly there to resolve Iraq's problems. By not doing anything they make themselves seem incompetent to Iraqi's which furthers the impression as an unnecessary occupation force. At the end of the day the Occupation force is either seen as impotent or omnipotent by most Iraqi's (if it something happens its either because the US can't do something or won't do something).

Then you have the cases of Iraqi's getting robbed and shot under the eyes of American troops with guns and then wondering why the Americans do nothing. Doesn't generate much love.

I suppose you are aware of the Srebenica-disaster? Same story, impotence just breeds trouble.

I know what you're getting at...I suppose American troops should have a level of active power. This breeds trouble too, though, Iraq really needs UN troops from muslim countries, this just doesn't work.

Yeah I know. But is that enough to go to war. I mean there are a lot of countries that have people capable of making nuclear weapons. If they paid for the experts from abroad, so what? Is that enough for war?

Actually I meant to say "No, obviously." as in this is not a good reason to go to war for obvious reason.

This proof is too circumstantial and easy, not to mention how no crime has been commited yet (punishing someone for future crimes is just wrong, EVEN in international politics, though the nuance is different then).

I kind of agree in the sense that its the US responsibility for creating this mess. At the same time, I do think this is an interenational issue and probably the UN could handle this better than the US. It seems the UN has more experience at this kind of thing than the US- although the UN record hasn't been perfect either.

Yeah, like I said, the UN has no real duty here (beyond that they didn't try to stop America, really), but it's their raison d'etre.

I just hope the negotiations don't take too long.

That sucks. Regardless of whether you support or were against the war, whether you are pro_Bush or anti-Bush, there are lots of folks suffering and they ain't getting much in the way of help.

Actually this would be an ideal thing for college students to get involved in. Regardless of what side you took on the war, I think everyone could get behind the idea of peace.

Don't be the idealist, welsh. I know the sentence "That's just how humans are" causes more trouble than it fixes, but it's still true.

My parents were real Left-Wing activists back in the day and I suppose they still are (though in a legit political party) and I grew up amongst people that constantly had good hopes for another day and enough faith in basic decency to drive one rally to the next on, but even I don't believe in Post-War interest.

Well, beyond the ocassional activist. My oldest brother, for instance, went to work in the Balkan for a while after the troubles over there (the odd...3 years ago? 4?)

People only care as long as their attention spans last, which tends to be rather short. "People will always suffer, we can't help it" etc. etc.

Though low interest in the more youthful people is always a bit more worisome, yung uns are supposed to still believe the world can be changed before they grind into a halt...
 
Ratty, you are freaking wild man. That conspiracy theory stuff should be bottled and turned into a book. If you wrote fiction this stuff would be epic.

I want to respond to your points in more detail but for now, just a couple of things.

(1) I agree with Kharn, that the UN is probably more useful than not. There have been a number of cases where UN involvement has failed, in other cases where it was laughable. But there have been cases where the UN has been irreplaceable and has contributed much. Cases of Cambodia and Namibia are often seen as UN successes. The move from colonization to sovereignty would probably not have been as effective without the UN (although some would say this is a mixed blessing). The UN has been behind much of the international law that countries generally follow.

(2) I agree, Taiwan is freaking scary. But I think if China were to try to invade, it will probably be painful or the Taiwanese will cave. Either way, much of the world will not care. However, for China to do this could also be financial suicide right now. So I would not expect anything like this for awhile.

(3) North Korea- yes we've been ignoring them. Everytime the North Koreans are hungry for cash they wave around the nuclear weapon and now the missile.

(4) Iraq- what a fucking mess. The question is whether Bush is blowing it, or has already blown it, or, we need to be more patient.
 
Kharn said:
You do realise that when the UN succeeds in its role as a peace-keeper, there is no war? Hence you can't say "they failed, because a number of wars DID happen". Research how many wars DIDN'T happen, and then come back.

Of course, numbers on that vary, because you can't be sure if something would've turned into a war. Anyway, it's rediculously oversimplified by stating "the UN failed because this number of wars happened".
The number of wars UN managed to stop from escalating is pretty much negligible. There were some relatively successful peacekeeping operations such as that in Somalia, or forcing Israel to give up Sinai, but other than that, UN's record of war prevention is pretty much disasterous. You mentioned Srebrenica, so I assume you know that responsibility for that massacre falls upon the Dutch units of UNPROFOR that were situated there and failed to stop the Serbs from entering the city and slaughtering the civilians. Hell, recently the government of the Netherlands fell over that! As for Croatia, UN managed to sustain a status quo for about two and half years, but that still didn't stop frequent skirmishes and even brutal attacks against civilian targets. In the end, the war was resolved when Croatian army ignored UN and captured the occupied territories by force. The status quo situation which dragged on since 1991. was resolved in less than four days and with casualties of only 200 on our side. If our late president hadn't been bold enough to go against the wishes of foreign powers and launch a full-scale attack against the occupators, I imagine we would still be at war, Serbs would still be holding 40% of our national territory, people would still get killed every day and Miloshevich would still be in power in Yugoslavia!

Really, if you look back at all the wars and crisis situations that occured since WWII, you'll notice that period from 1945. till today was just as rough and full of killing and suffering as any other period of world's history. It's obvious that UN has completely failed at its ultimate goal - to achieve global peace. The only good thing in all this post-WW2 mess is that World War III didn't happen (yet). Again, no thanks to US - all of the situations that could have possibly led to new global conflict were resolved between White House and Kremly, outside of UN Council meetings. I imagine that if Kruschev and Kennedy had simply decided to let U Thant (secretary general in 1962.) settle their little incident, we would now be eating glowing vegetables, while using one of our three arms...

Pah. The notion of the UN being replaced is ludicrous at best. The US currently has no power counter-balance, what do you think UN II would look like? Let's say...extended NATO.

"Here is the world, lap dog to the US"

Bah! To even have a spark of hope that a replacement of the UN would be better than current UN is naive at best (no offense)
I cannot say what the best replacement for UN would be, but I do know that UN costs a lot more than it helps, and it should most certainly be shut down. They fail to fulfill their task as peacekeeping organization, they are too weak and incompetent to even begin solving the problems such as hunger and poverty... I mean, come on, they couldn't even organize some sort of protection for Plitvica Lakes, Croatia's most beautiful national park! Serbs threatened to blow up the waterfalls that took nature millions of years to build, and all UN had to do was detach a unit to guard the waterfalls and keep the Serbian forces out of the park, and they couldn't even do that much. Maybe creating an "extended" NATO isn't such a bad idea. A more powerful NATO with USA on the top would at least be swift and strong enough to undertake military action when all the diplomatic options are closed. This has happened too many times, and it was always NATO, and not undecisive UN, that intervened and solved the situation. Though I'm always in favor of peace, sometimes military action simply can't be avoided. Tell me, how can one negotiate peace with people like Miloshevich or Saddam? How can a weak peacekeeping force like UN maintain peace and safety and cope with someone whose entire rule, his very power, is entirely founded and based upon violence and destruction? There are still a lot of brutal regimes in this world, many more wars and crisis situations will arise throughout the globe, and if we wait for UN to handle the situation their way, millions of people will die in vain.
 
Hehe. Seriously i think the US and the GB must admit that the invasion was wrong, before they get any support from the UN, that or start licking French arse as much as they can. Probably they have to lick some German arse as well.

Innteresting to see how suddenly the US has gone from "we think about punishing those that was not behind us" at the end of the war, to" please help us" now after less than halv a year of "peace"

North corea is a very corrupt regime that will, without problem, starve their own people so that they can get support the outside world. The thing many here does not seem to realise is that they can do this for a very long time. This is because the North corean population is very uneducated, and they do not know shit about the world on the outside, all they know is what they are beeing told by their rulers. They know no other life than hard work and starvation, and is then not very likel to rebel.

I think the US and GB has fucked upp bad, in Iraq There is many reasons for this I will ention those i can think of right now, and then take the rest when i can thinka about it.

They show very little respect to the custom down there, and to the people. Showing more respect to the people down there, would probably lessen the amount of anger amongst the population. To back upp my point here is the fact that the dude that is responsibole for the rule of the country, from the US side has promised to se a much more softer line against the population, contrary to what bush has said about continuing the hard line.

They are not exactly heroes. I quote a norwegian christian worker dwn there that said this not long after the bombing of the UN headqarter: "they (the americans) are not capable of protecting the basic needs of the people, but protecting themselves behind a lot of barbed wire" What kind of saving heroes is it that fight of saddam and then cant help the people getting what they need to survive. If they dared to risk their sorry arses so that the people got what they needed to continue their lifes, as they used to be, exept without saddam then they might be heroes. Right now they are only cowards hiding behind their big guns and barbed wire.

Now there is a side of me that says "Leave to it, let em feel what happens if they try to do it on their own" Then my rational side comes and says: "Death of thousands, Iraq islam state like iran, more terrorists, more dictatorship" So i will support a UN force down there, but i also seriously think the US and UK should leave this compleatly in the hands of the UN, wich means i would not let either of the occupation forces controll the action, but rather let otehr countries be responsibole. This is so the soldiers down there could get the support of the population.

Ratty, if there is a certain country that leads the UN, like US in your example then there would be very little support to gain from the people of the world, The point of the UN is to Not only win the war, but also the peace. For the un to be capable to do this people must be able to trust that the UN is not carrying out some countries political agenda. A UN as the one you suggest would proabably only lead to more wars and unstability, and sittuations like the one in Iraq right now.
 
DSD- That's funny. Count on you to lift the discourse!
"I think it was a bad car to start with?"
"I keep a piece on my night stand to remind me of the cars that suck?"

Loxley- I agree with your point about North Korea but I think it has more to do with the propaganda machine. If you look at NK now, its a lot like how China and Russia used to be. Little outside influence allowed, very controlled visits, and an ideology that supports a cult of personality.

Considering how the North Koreas are, I doubt a soft line is the answer. They have proven themselves very apt at breaking deals in the past.

With regard to Iraq- the US image its cultivating does not help the situtation. The Iraqis are counting on the US to fill a role that Saddam had played, and failing to do that undermines that authority.

Ratty- I think to be fair with the UN you have to consider what kind of structure you have in that institution. Its easy to think of the UN as a federated body, because I think that's what most of us think of. In fact, the UN is fairly weak and highly subject to the wills of the states that both formed and maintain it. That said, giving the UN more power to be more effective is somethng a lot of countries don't want, so they keep it weak.

At the same time it plays an important role in much of the "less newsworthy" of international relations and remains an important forum for discussion and interaction. In a sense it provides the critical role in international relations that government plays in the creation of markets in economics. If we were to dump it, could we make a better one? I really doubt it.
 
Loxley said:
Hehe. Seriously i think the US and the GB must admit that the invasion was wrong, before they get any support from the UN, that or start licking French arse as much as they can. Probably they have to lick some German arse as well.

Innteresting to see how suddenly the US has gone from "we think about punishing those that was not behind us" at the end of the war, to" please help us" now after less than halv a year of "peace"
Yeah, right. USA is far more powerful than France and Germany could ever possibly be. It will be France and Germany who will be kissing their asses. When they turned their backs on US (which is a pretty dumb thing to do, considering they thus dishonored their alliance with the most powerful country in the world), they brought themselves into a very unpleasant situation, which only worsened when Coalition's invasion of Iraq turned out to be more than successful. Now Schröder and Chirac have to do whatever they can to save the relations with USA, and the least they can do is lend a hand in post-war Iraq.

You really don't seem to understand the present situation in the world. USA is a superpower that can easily crush any resistance in Iraq without ever considering any outside assistance. They don't need France, they don't need Germany, and they most certainly don't need UN. Do you honestly believe America is "kissing Europe's ass" and "begging UN for help"? Loxley, my boy, they could handle the situation in Iraq with their eyes closed! What they are doing is merely offering their former allies a chance to take part in what goes on in Iraq and make up for the stupid mistake they made. If this also improves their image in the eyes of the world and saves them some money - all the better!

North corea is a very corrupt regime that will, without problem, starve their own people so that they can get support the outside world. The thing many here does not seem to realise is that they can do this for a very long time. This is because the North corean population is very uneducated, and they do not know shit about the world on the outside, all they know is what they are beeing told by their rulers. They know no other life than hard work and starvation, and is then not very likel to rebel.
Exactly. But, as I stated in my post, North Korea has brought itself into such a situation when it can no longer sustain itself in isolation. It's a matter of time when it will open up to the world, first to South Korea, then to China, then to rest of the world. End of isolation will also mean influx of information, knowledge and wealth, which creates a basis for an uprising against present regime. See? Kim Jong's regime cannot last!

I think the US and GB has fucked upp bad, in Iraq There is many reasons for this I will ention those i can think of right now, and then take the rest when i can thinka about it.

They show very little respect to the custom down there, and to the people. Showing more respect to the people down there, would probably lessen the amount of anger amongst the population. To back upp my point here is the fact that the dude that is responsibole for the rule of the country, from the US side has promised to se a much more softer line against the population, contrary to what bush has said about continuing the hard line.

They are not exactly heroes. I quote a norwegian christian worker dwn there that said this not long after the bombing of the UN headqarter: "they (the americans) are not capable of protecting the basic needs of the people, but protecting themselves behind a lot of barbed wire" What kind of saving heroes is it that fight of saddam and then cant help the people getting what they need to survive. If they dared to risk their sorry arses so that the people got what they needed to continue their lifes, as they used to be, exept without saddam then they might be heroes. Right now they are only cowards hiding behind their big guns and barbed wire.
And what did you expect? That Iraq would magically transform into land of democracy and prosperity as soon as American soldiers set foot in it? It doesn't work that way Loxley. Americans overthrew Saddam's regime and their presence will ensure that new government is democratic and fair. They can only stay there and keep an eye on the situation, but they cannot (and should not) interfere in everyday life of Iraqi citizens. They cannot act as police, they cannot establish courts to prosecute criminals, they cannot go from house to house fixing powersupply and returning people's stolen dishwashers and TV sets. It is up to new government (which got appointed a few days ago) to organize the police, the courts, the prisons and all other services a country needs to function properly. Americans can lend a hand here and there, but they can never act as a substitute for a real government. It is up to Iraqi to take responsibility for their own lives and bring things back to normal.

You have to understand that US army is an occupation force, located in a hostile territory where everyone is a potential enemy. This isn't a matter of heroism, chivalry and nobility, this is a matter of survival. Are you honestly proposing they should drop their big guns, leave their barbed wire and go around helping people like a bunch of boyscouts? That isn't the way army works, especially not in a state of war and on hostile territory. Nobody's expecting Americans to be noble knights who will go around tossing flowers at passer-bies. They came to Iraq to fight a war, and they won it. Now its up to Iraqi to build a better country themselves, under American supervision and with a little help from them and the rest of the world.

Now there is a side of me that says "Leave to it, let em feel what happens if they try to do it on their own" Then my rational side comes and says: "Death of thousands, Iraq islam state like iran, more terrorists, more dictatorship" So i will support a UN force down there, but i also seriously think the US and UK should leave this compleatly in the hands of the UN, wich means i would not let either of the occupation forces controll the action, but rather let otehr countries be responsibole. This is so the soldiers down there could get the support of the population.
Are you joking? If we let UN alone run things in Iraq, it'll just lead to more killing. UN couldn't keep peace in your school cafeteria, much less in a country torn apart by internal conflicts and a legacy of one brutal regime.

Ratty, if there is a certain country that leads the UN, like US in your example then there would be very little support to gain from the people of the world, The point of the UN is to Not only win the war, but also the peace. For the un to be capable to do this people must be able to trust that the UN is not carrying out some countries political agenda. A UN as the one you suggest would proabably only lead to more wars and unstability, and sittuations like the one in Iraq right now.
Yes, well, that was just a thought. I can't really say what global peacekeeping organization should be like, I just know that present UN is weak and useless.
 
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