Is Elder Lyons a sneering Imperialist?

[CT Phipps]

Star Wars is only decently fun, not "massively good", and even then only the first 3 movies are decently fun. Pop cultural success doesn't equate to quality, and this goes double for anything bethesda squeezes out.

Given the massive effect it has had on many people's lives in ways of morality, development, and personal meaning, I'm not sure what you mean by "decently fun." There's no actual objective determinator for quality but what a work of fiction means to you. The worst fiction is those which has no impression and Fallout 3 has a massive fanbase for a reason.

The story isn't that the BOS was a bunch of Knights in Shining armor? they are presented as nothing but a generically shallow "good faction" whose members spout corny shit like "Steel be with you" because they are trying to ape the Jedi knights too while they are at it. The deserter faction is so small and insignificant to the story that they are barely even worth mentioning. All they do is heap praise on your dadee and then you have no other path in game than joining them with a big smile on their face.

They're presented as a generically good faction which has lost half its members to desertion and is on the verge of losing the war. They're also people who don't give you the time of day until the Final Third of the game. Your first encounter early in the game has you dismissed as a brainless savage. You also have Ashur develop them further as not quite the noble paragons they think you are.

And they heap praise because you, unlike they, get shit done.

 

[Dr Fallout]

I'm going to play Fallout 3 soon, so I'll be able to look up everything here. I'm interested to see if Phipp's view is correct or supported.

 

[Walpknut]

No offense but if people are really letting Star Wars teach them morality then that explains why shit's so tribalistic online.
"They have lost half of their members" yet their HQ is full of soldiers all fully decked in armor and they even manage to make a giant robot work. They heap praise on your character even if you do nothing. Even if you actively work against them on the token Mustache twirling options.

 

[CT Phipps]

I hope you enjoy Fallout 3!

No offense but if people are really letting Star Wars teach them morality then that explains why shit's so tribalistic online.

Honestly, Star Wars is a superior morality to the racist homophobic militaristic bullshit I was raised with.

"They have lost half of their members" yet their HQ is full of soldiers all fully decked in armor and they even manage to make a giant robot work. They heap praise on your character even if you do nothing. Even if you actively work against them on the token Mustache twirling options.

Given they have one outpost other than the Pentagon, I'm not sure that's a real argument.

As for making a giant robot, that's their ace in the hole....except it doesn't work until the very very end and gets nuked.

Not really, because you have to kill them after you take the mustache twirling option in Broken Steel.

 

[Dr Fallout]

I hope you enjoy Fallout 3!

I've played it before, long ago so I want to see how it aged.

 

[Walpknut]

Star Wars is the most basic Black and white morality narrative you can conjure up, it was never meant to be anything than a pop corn flick, the fact that people have elevated it to what it's now is pretty worrying.

The map the game is set in is small, the BOS HQ is bigger than the other cities, every guy has Power armor and all of them give the goofy "Steel be with you salute". You have to pay 10 dollars to even get to become hostile to you after fighting a bunch of Bullet sponge Enclave soldiers. They really have no depth, and the very fact that they manage to make a giant robot work is one of the many elements that completely break any tone FO3 even tries to set. Not to mention all the "Good fight" shit and the inability to join any other faction in the base game. The most complex they ever get is one of the scientists being kind of grumpy and then they ask you to find cameras for Good Guy points.

 

[CT Phipps]

Star Wars is the most basic Black and white morality narrative you can conjure up, it was never meant to be anything than a pop corn flick, the fact that people have elevated it to what it's now is pretty worrying.

As Buddhism would say, it's important to start with a strong simple idea and build on than build a morality on a basis of hot air.

The map the game is set in is small, the BOS HQ is bigger than the other cities, every guy has Power armor and all of them give the goofy "Steel be with you salute". You have to pay 10 dollars to even get to become hostile to you after fighting a bunch of Bullet sponge Enclave soldiers. They really have no depth, and the very fact that they manage to make a giant robot work is one of the many elements that completely break any tone FO3 even tries to set. Not to mention all the "Good fight" shit and the inability to join any other faction in the base game. The most complex they ever get is one of the scientists being kind of grumpy and then they ask you to find cameras for Good Guy points.

The Brotherhood of Steel has power armor because that's their thing but the game reduces power armor's effectiveness that it isn't a gamebreaker. As for not having depth, the whole point is that it's about trying to do something good with them versus their previous selfishness and how it isn't always possible. Their story has also been enriched by Fallout 4 in that it didn't work out in the end.

But yes, every time you say "they're morally perfect" you have to incorporate the Outcasts. They're a pretty damn huge part of the backstory and shows the BOS isn't.

Oh and Ashur too.

As for not being able to join another faction, that's true but Broken Steel gives you the option of wiping them out so you can free rule the Wasteland alone.

 

[Dr Fallout]

you can free rule the Wasteland alone.

Except you... don't actually. You have nothing behind you but the Brotherhood in terms of organized support.

 

[CT Phipps]

Except you... don't actually. You have nothing behind you but the Brotherhood in terms of organized support.

With no Enclave and no Brotherhood, who is going to stop you?

 

[Dr Fallout]

With no Enclave and no Brotherhood, who is going to stop you?

If the game was realistic, any dumbass with a hunting rifle. Headshot from 300 feet.

But if we go with game logic, no one... oooohhhh wait... how can one man rule the Wastelands? He can't be everywhere at once, and most settlements will ignore him if he's gone (read: most of the time).

 

[CT Phipps]

If the game was realistic, any dumbass with a hunting rifle. Headshot from 300 feet.

Which is why Power Armor exists. Which he now has a near-monopoly on.

But if we go with game logic, no one... oooohhhh wait... how can one man rule the Wastelands? He can't be everywhere at once, and most settlements will ignore him if he's gone (read: most of the time).

The Lone Wanderer can certainly recruit people. The thing is the Brotherhood of Steel had an ideaology which wouldn't allow him to rule over the land.

Now they're out of the way.

 

[Dr Fallout]

Which is why Power Armor exists. Which he now has a near-monopoly on.

Fat Man, Rocket Launcher, Anything heavier than that can penetrate it.

The Lone Wanderer can certainly recruit people. The thing is the Brotherhood of Steel had an ideaology which wouldn't allow him to rule over the land.

Now they're out of the way.

True, but that means he rules over a small collection of settlements, like the Sole survivor. He's also dependent on people willing to join him, and wouldn't that make him more of a trading company owner then a ruler? It means he relies on his mercenaries to be willing to administer or accept his rule over their homes.

 

[CT Phipps]

Fat Man, Rocket Launcher, Anything heavier than that can penetrate it.

Yep, why NCR won against the BOS but thankfully nobody has that since you've killed Talon Company and the regular citizens just have rifles.

True, but that means he rules over a small collection of settlements, like the Sole survivor. He's also dependent on people willing to join him, and wouldn't that make him more of a trading company owner then a ruler? It means he relies on his mercenaries to be willing to administer or accept his rule over their homes.

Better to reign in hell than serve in Heaven. Besides, if the Capital Wasteland is like 90% of the world then that's still ruling over a decent-sized kingdom. Certainly, I imagine the good people at Paradise Falls don't think it's better to be the enslaved than the slavee.

The Pitt, of course, means that the Capital Wasteland is a far less impressive conquest but it's a place where, with the Purifier running under Rivet City, that the Bandit King Sole Survivor could use Wernher's mercs to give water and food to his armies.

It's the beginning of an Empire.

Alternatively, a Good Karma PC could eliminate the BOS to remove the Purifier from their control and stop them from taking over the Capital Wasteland. To prevent them from corrupting his father's work the way they canonically do in F4.

 

[Dr Fallout]

Yep, why NCR won against the BOS but thankfully nobody has that since you've killed Talon Company and the regular citizens just have rifles.

Raiders?

Better to reign in hell than serve in Heaven. Besides, if the Capital Wasteland is like 90% of the world then that's still ruling over a decent-sized kingdom. Certainly, I imagine the good people at Paradise Falls don't think it's better to be the enslaved than the slavee.

The Pitt, of course, means that the Capital Wasteland is a far less impressive conquest but it's a place where, with the Purifier running under Rivet City, that the Bandit King Sole Survivor could use Wernher's mercs to give water and food to his armies.

It's the beginning of an Empire.

Alternatively, a Good Karma PC could eliminate the BOS to remove the Purifier from their control and stop them from taking over the Capital Wasteland. To prevent them from corrupting his father's work the way they canonically do in F4.

Controlling hell is impressive. Controlling the desolate wasteland of the Capital Wasteland is not. All you own are small settlements and some minor trading companies. Nothing really big or worthy. It's not even the start of an empire, but Pitt... Pitt is something.

 

[CerberusGate]

The Lone Wanderer can certainly recruit people. The thing is the Brotherhood of Steel had an ideaology which wouldn't allow him to rule over the land.

Now they're out of the way.

Too bad from actual Fallout 4, there is no sign or indication that the Lone Wanderer bore any significance.

James maybe but the Wanderer, his actions ultimately were for naught.

 

[CT Phipps]

Too bad from actual Fallout 4, there is no sign or indication that the Lone Wanderer bore any significance.

James maybe but the Wanderer, his actions ultimately were for naught.

There's plenty of signs the Lone Wanderer had a massive effect on events, not the least of which being that the only reason the BOS still exists is the Lone Wanderer but he does seem conspicuous by his absence in terms of history.

Is it possible Arthur Maxson deleted him/her in order to protect his own image? He is, in every possible way, an inferior leader.

 

[CerberusGate]

Is it possible Arthur Maxson deleted him/her in order to protect his own image? He is, in every possible way, an inferior leader.

It's possible though due to the lack of any actual input from the Capital Wasteland (thanks, MacCready for being even more useless), there is no real certain answers to that point.

It's like Bethesda were too scared to provide definitive answers on what the LW did so, they left it blank on purpose while not mentioning anything he did.

 

[CT Phipps]

It's possible though due to the lack of any actual input from the Capital Wasteland (thanks, MacCready for being even more useless), there is no real certain answers to that point.

It's like Bethesda were too scared to provide definitive answers on what the LW did so, they left it blank on purpose while not mentioning anything he did.

It's also bizarre because it's clearly the Good Karma ending which have always been canon anyway.

 

[mithrap]

There's plenty of signs the Lone Wanderer had a massive effect on events, not the least of which being that the only reason the BOS still exists is the Lone Wanderer but he does seem conspicuous by his absence in terms of history.

Is it possible Arthur Maxson deleted him/her in order to protect his own image? He is, in every possible way, an inferior leader.

Let's not confuse hero with leader. A leader doesn't have to be a hero, a hero is not necessarely a good leader.

By any definition, the lone wanderer is a hero. Dedicated to a cause greater than himself, ready to sacrifice himself for it etc. Sure. But a leader? I don't think so. In F3, you never actually get to lead anything. Neither strategic plans, nor business, nor squad, not even the preparations for the project purity. You never lead anyone anywhere, except yourself and at most, one of your teammates. The lone wanderer doesn't even get to give the last badass speech before battle : Lyons does, in front of him. For an obvious reason : she may not be a hero, but she's a leader. Hell, even the main mission is not even your initiative, it's James'.

How is Maxson unfit to be that leader? Sure, he turned out to be an incompetent, heretical brat, but when you think about it, he actually had the perfect background for a perfect leader. He grew up next to the men he now commands. He learnt to lead directly from a high elder, and since he was a child. He has a lot of actual military experience compared to the lone wanderer (who fought by the BoS's side for a few months, whereas Maxson gave everything he had for more than a decade, including in an actual trench war). How come he turned out to be utterly incompetent is not explained, but in terms of background, his is pretty solid as leader. Also considering that the brotherhood accepts succession based on dynasty, and considering Maxson's background, I'm not sure he'd have something to fear from the lone wanderer. If anything, he'd use him as an example, except if the lone wanderer... well, wandered alone, leaving the ranks of the brotherhood. Which he did, if I remember correctly. If anything, that's not something that's allowed in a military order such as the brotherhood. You retire when you die, not when the battle is over.

 

[CT Phipps]

My interpretation of Arthur Maxson is that he's a puppet who skipped his leash. He was a guy who the Elders of Lost Hills (having apparently made peace with the New Republic--possibly by not being IDIOTS and surrendering) put into power once they got their radios working. However, he's an obnoxious blowhard for much of his career, which can be explained by the fact he was a teenager when he came to power.

Danse is mentioned to be responsible for burying a lot of Arthur's bodies and I wouldn't be surprised if Arthur's legend is as much Danse's doing as anyone else's.