Is it possible?Economic collapse and War's brewing?

Discussion in 'General Discussion Forum' started by TorontoReign, Nov 28, 2011.

  1. Crni Vuk

    Crni Vuk M4A3 Oldfag oTO Orderite

    Nov 25, 2008
  2. Ilosar

    Ilosar Vault Fossil

    Apr 20, 2010
    There's a line between withdrawing support and playing along Israel's every single wish. Because what that does is making them feel entitled and agressive, and more or less make Palestine their chew toys for that. I mean, if, say, Iran did to a Christian or Jewish country what Israel does to Palestine, the West would immediately cruch them. But because it's Israel, and it's surrounded by enemies, and because they have lots of support in Washington, ect. ect. Nobody cares that they treat a whole population like dirt and wall them in (like this has ever solved anything). I don't support either Muslims or Jews, but there's a massive double standard that really undermines every effort that could be done at peace. So long as the US fancies itself the negociator and protector of the region yet favors Israel so hugely there can be no fair talk of peace in the foreseeable future.

    More or less the only ones that I support in this conflict are the Palestinians themselves, they are the true victims. Remember when they asked to be recognized as a State and either got rejected out of hand or make the US and Israel cut funding to UNESCO? And after that the West claims that the Arabs are the sole problem?

    While Israel is not a theocracy, it still is a State founded by Jews, for Jews, so of course the religious elements is very strong (despite Muslims being about 20% of the population, they have more or less no power). But no good thing can happen if radicals such as these guys take power.
     
  3. Tagaziel

    Tagaziel Panzerkatze Staff Member Admin Orderite

    Dec 10, 2003
    Palestinians are both the victims and aggressors. Don't downplay Palestinian terrorist activities, which contribute a great deal to Israeli paranoia and the state of unrest in the region.
     
  4. TorontoReign

    TorontoReign Sandman oTO Staff Member Moderator Orderite

    Apr 1, 2005
    This. Both The Palestinians and Israelites are to blame though. Neither is innocent. They have been fighting over that fucking land for years, and they will continue to fight over it. Why? Because God said they could. So I guess God likes persecution. So they think they can harass each other because they are both in the right. They are both wrong. Most Americans that I know blindly support Israel because it is the "Holy Land" without knowing shit about the region. Israel needs to back off a little on the Palestine issue.
     
  5. Ilosar

    Ilosar Vault Fossil

    Apr 20, 2010
    I was more specifically talking about the people living there. Many terrorists are foreigners taking up arms against Israel (not the leaders, however).

    Also, Palestinian terrorism is more of a response to a threat than anything else. Israel can't be taken out by pure strength, as has been proven time and again, so wearing it's political will out is the solution the Muslims have settled for. And since Israel responds by sending their own bombs and walling in an entire populace, the attacks won't stop anytime soon. If someone is capable of taking the first step here, Israel is. There are many reasons why they don't, but until it's done peace in the Middle East is a distant dream.

    Way too much blood has been spilt on and for this land for it to be called holy anymore, if you ask me.
     
  6. aboniks

    aboniks Still Mildly Glowing

    204
    Jan 17, 2012
    The US (or any other sovereign entity) can, at any time, for any reason, or no reason, tell any creditor to pound sand. justification

    The trouble with doing that in the case of China is that a) no one else is going to loan us any money, and b) no one else is going to lend us any money. Our entire standard of living is based on economic vaporware.

    We've put ourselves in a position that's completely untenable. We can't hope to pay them back, because we don't export anything except weaponry, fast food, and anorexic celebrities. We also don't seem to be able to raise capital by instigating wars in countries with decent GDP that would want to buy enough of our weapons to pay China back.

    We'd collapse into...well...Detroit...if China closed our national credit line. Paying them back isn't even an issue any more, really.

    We're just plain fucked without a manufacturing base, and they know it. If we start getting our heads out of our asses and actually find the motivation to get factories open to produce something exportable, I suspect that China would try to throttle our access to the needed capital.

    They'd be insane not to keep us dependent, since we've already sold out to them utterly, and couldn't stand on our own without a serious kick in the ass. They probably won't get agressive about calling our markers until we run out of raw materials to send them.

    If we hadn't done this shit to ourselves, I'd be upset. As it stands...meh. We've degenerated so far that we probably deserve to be a client state for a few hundred years.

    EDIT: tl;dr - We're China's crack whore. We could tell the cops they hit us, but we'd still be sucking a lot of dick afterwards.
     
  7. Sabirah

    Sabirah Water Chip? Been There, Done That

    930
    Jul 10, 2011
    Subhan Allah some of you people are negative. It will get better guys. It always does. :)
     
  8. Crni Vuk

    Crni Vuk M4A3 Oldfag oTO Orderite

    Nov 25, 2008
    I am sure thats what the people said before the 1. of September 1939 as well :shock:
     
  9. TorontoReign

    TorontoReign Sandman oTO Staff Member Moderator Orderite

    Apr 1, 2005
    China won't be in such good shape for too much longer. They are prone to civil unrest. The dollar may be dead soon, and a new currency will replace it. It is already in motion. Thanks for the post. Interesting information. The Federal Reserve can suck my balls. I hate those bastards.

    So who thinks the economy will get worse? Are we technically in a Recession or a Depression? The media spins shit so much it is hard for me to tell. I know that I have never been this financially fucked in my life. It is harder and harder to fill up a fucking tank of gas. I can barely afford groceries. Washington talks, and talks, and talks, but it is a never-ending cycle of sameness. The illusion of a two-party system is a sham. I hate what our country has become. But I guess it isn't just USA that is having problems either. The world is literally in chaos.

    I know the people I talk to every day are very pessimistic. Everyone I know is broke. There is no change in sight. The political candidates for 2012 are pitiful. I am at a loss. The government is cracking down on the internet, and the planet is facing numerous existential threats. The NDAA allows the government to do some pretty "sheisty" stuff to say the least. Hackers are attacking numerous Government websites in a new form of "Activism", or what some would call "Terrorism". The Occupy movement made many waves in the establishment, but whether it could be called a success is debatable. At least some people are standing up to this bullshit, but is it enough?
     
  10. Crni Vuk

    Crni Vuk M4A3 Oldfag oTO Orderite

    Nov 25, 2008
    China is growing very fast that means they will also get sooner get to the stages of any usual industrial/economical evolution.

    In other words the issues we face today will be much bigger for China.

    Someone described like a engine always ruining on its top speed and thus overheating. I think that fits somewhat to the Chinese economy.
     
  11. TorontoReign

    TorontoReign Sandman oTO Staff Member Moderator Orderite

    Apr 1, 2005
    Exactly. That is the perfect way of explaining it. Think about how much Russia relied on increasing their military. All other aspects of their society were put to the rear. That is where problems develop.
     
  12. aboniks

    aboniks Still Mildly Glowing

    204
    Jan 17, 2012
    I'm disinclined to put too much blame on the Fed, personally. It looks to me like someone hired them to chop wood, but told them they were only allowed to use hair curlers or super glue to chop with. They're not perfect, of course. Just too much Canute in one place.

    In between. Don't tell the media though, or we'll have to listen to a thousand cheerfully vacuous blonde news bobbleheads saying "It's a re-de-cession-pression!" If you look back at the 30's with a critical eye, and what lead up to them, I think there are some similarities, but we're not really there yet. Life is getting harder, I agree. We're starting at a higher baseline though, I think. We both have more, and expect more, so we're more sensitive to things that disrupt our 'normal' quality of life. Not saying a lot of people aren't having serious problems, but imo we're not in depression territory yet, collectively.

    Existential threats give me an intellectual chubby. I think that [spoiler:b14a69f3de] the best thing that could happen to this planet would be the extinction of the human race, if it can be managed in a way that doesn't just cause more problems for whatever other life survives[/spoiler:b14a69f3de] so I'm cautiously optimistic. As for our interwebz, I think we'll do okay in the long run. Governments actually need civilians to be on the networks a LOT more than civilians do...we can always take the ball and go home if they get too big for their britches.

    As for cyber-terror...dunno. The gubmints claimed sovereignty in a non existent territory and now the locals are telling them to suck a dick. The 'hackerz' are just the newest group of natives to stand up to a colonizing power. Asymmetric as fuck, isn't it? Should be way more interesting to watch than football, in the next few years.

    Not really. And it won't be enough, until it becomes too much. If people get desperate enough in large groups, there will be some nasty spasmodic reactions, but they'll be too violent to accomplish anything except tighter thumbscrews. Occupy is just an appetizer, I think, but the rich/powerful can just pull back behind the blackwater curtain and run shit for the foreseeable future. Until that illusion of security created by wealth is publicly shattered, not much is going to change on a large scale.

    /cynical rant
     
  13. Yoshi525

    Yoshi525 Vault Senior Citizen
    Orderite

    Dec 10, 2006
    ^ Resonance.

    For the past 8-10 years, I've been torn between caring deeply about the human race and being apathetic (or worse). As the years have past, my internal dialogue has started to lean more towards the apathetic side - as fucked up as it sounds, part of me would really like to see some fireworks go off. The quantity and quality of said fireworks varies depending on mood; at there brightest they could probably be equated to this corpulent, consumerist-construct being erased in coruscations of cleansing nuclear fire. Normally I'm somewhat more optimistic though :wink:

    I can't help but feel that we are entering the twilight of the west, don't mistake me - at present things really aren't bad. Cracks are starting to show though, which in itself is indicative of little, the nuance of it is the inability to fill the cracks. Meh, I could be way out and probably am - I've a somewhat schizo personality and dark fantasies tend to entice. I'm frequently amazed by the human craving for order and stability, which in our society too often equates to a degree of predictable, repetitive, numbness. I can't relate to this at all, in many ways I'm a chaotic outsider to the flock's order. No delusions are harboured that I'm anyway above the flock, it's more of a sideways separation in the metaphorical spatial-ecology of my quasi-Orwellian habitat. Outdoor survival is something I've become well versed in, partly due to enjoyment and partly a failsafe in case the shit really does hit the fan. It's easy to detail dystopian ideas on the internet, somewhat harder if those ideas ever materialise in a neighbourhood near you. Blessedly, I love the cold wet outdoors of this mist-shrouded, windswept island far more than the generation-x comforts of urban Britain. Viewing human relationships as accessories, rather than essentials helps too.

    If chaos does ensue, I will follow it with a morbid fascination and indulgent sense of irony. Unless aforementioned chaos includes a nuclear exchange between NATO/Russia, at the time of a northerly East-Anglian wind. In which case I'll watch in horror as fallout blows over, from the remains of RAF Waddington. Damn AWACS.
     
  14. aboniks

    aboniks Still Mildly Glowing

    204
    Jan 17, 2012
    That is some Mark Twain shit right there, and profound with it.

    +1
     
  15. popej

    popej First time out of the vault

    82
    Oct 30, 2008
    Some of the things Yoshi says strike a chord with me. I'm largely apathetic towards the human race these days to. I love my family and my partner but I dislike the 'self-important ignorance' of the human race in general. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy life and living but I don't harbour any illusions as to some 'greater meaning' for the human race. Hypocrit? Yes, I'm human.

    None of it matters a jot when an asteroid the size of the moon could end it all in seconds. What use are our religions (actually don't answer that one), celebrities, petty conflicts and high paying jobs then?

    Nature is about the only thing deserving of our respect, in the grand scheme of things. It's bigger than us, stronger than us and it doesn't give a shit how many cars you own!

    Sorry, that's all rather depressing. :)
     
  16. TorontoReign

    TorontoReign Sandman oTO Staff Member Moderator Orderite

    Apr 1, 2005
    I stumbled across this today....

    While quietly casting lines to draw Tehran into talks on their nuclear dispute, President Barack Obama is reported exclusively by DEBKA-Net-Weekly’s military and Washington sources to have secretly ordered US air, naval and marine forces to build up heavy concentrations on two strategic islands – Socotra, which is part of a Yemeni archipelago in the Indian Ocean, and the Omani island of Masirah at the southern exit of the Strait of Hormuz.

    They are witnessing the heaviest American concentration of might in the region since the US invaded Iraq in 2003.

    Then, 100,000 American troops were massed in Kuwait ahead of the invasion. Today, those sources estimate from the current pace of arrivals on the two island bases, that 50,000 US troops will have accumulated on Socotra and Masirah by mid-February. They will top up the 50,000 military already present in the Persian Gulf region, so that in less than a month, Washington will have some 100,000 military personnel on the spot and available for any contingency.

    The plot thickens......