Is it wrong to compare Fallout 1+2 with 3 in terms of story?

I always said that it was very unfair to compare FO3 to Fallout;
but most FO3 fans seemed to assume that I meant it's unfair to Fallout. :lol:
 
Fallout 1 felt realistic and the story felt important. I wanted to save the vault and actually hated the muties when the began butchering places.

Fallout 2's story was just shite. I never cared about saving my village, they all seemed like simpletons and assholes. One minute you're among tribals... then cowboys... then gangsters... then asians... then storm troopers! It's like one big joke, and it's to blame for most of the crap that came after.

Fallout 3 the story wasn't THAT bad, but all the characters were like empty shells, so I just didn't care enough.
 
the OP


any opinion on a game is just an opinion, no game is better then any other



people unable to grasp that concept are people with an IQ lower then 90(borderline retarded). I'm not sure whats funnier, the old school fallout hardkore nerd elitism or the new school fallout dipshit fanboyism or w.e lol, imo just 2 groups of idiots duking it out on the internet and it's hilarious, boggles my mind that it's been going strong since 08 though
 
It's impossible to compare Classic Fallout to Bethesda's Fallout-Doom, simply because it would be like comparing a professional acting company to a high school play.
 
It's impossible to compare Classic Fallout to Bethesda's Fallout-Doom, simply because it would be like comparing a professional acting company to a high school play.

Except that Bethesda aren't a bunch of high schoolers, they are professionals, and if a professional company produces high school level work, they should be prepared for critics to call them out on it!

It's definitely not "wrong" to compare the game world and storyline (or lack thereof, as the case may be).

Fallout 2's story was just shite. I never cared about saving my village, they all seemed like simpletons and assholes. One minute you're among tribals... then cowboys... then gangsters... then asians... then storm troopers! It's like one big joke, and it's to blame for most of the crap that came after.

I have to admit, I kind of agree with this. I really enjoyed FO1 but I just can't seem to get into FO2. :? I find it difficult to roleplay when the setting borders on outright parody.
 
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I have to admit, I kind of agree with this. I really enjoyed FO1 but I just can't seem to get into FO2. :? I find it difficult to roleplay when the setting borders on outright parody.

Fallout was a cohesive and well done original. Every single fallout game that has followed it, has suffered bad "copy-of-a-copy" like symptoms, because of a lack of understanding for the setting. It's far worse with Bethesda, not because none of them understood the setting [they didn't], but because they don't care what they setting was, they want a simplified/ easy to grasp & identify concept; hence: Wacky-50's-Land ~with Bacon & eggs! :(

Far easier for the mass consumer to "get", than the concept that the setting is the future as they thought it might happen; where there is new and unheard of technology ~but with a 50's design aesthetic. Where [also] even the very physical laws of the universe are bent around their ignorance, fear, and awe ~ of the atom bomb, and all things nuclear.
 
Meh, Fallout 1 was a good standalone game. Very art, tbh, very tight. Had a bit of a problem with the whole brotherhood of steel and mutant horde high "knights vs. orcs" fantasy tropes in disguise invading the game at one point, but it was pleasantly morally ambiguous compared to most other stuff. (Or rather, had decent twists, and a very, very nice atmosphere and vibe).

Fallout 2 was just plain unfinished. Also unfocused and uncohesive in any way you look at it. It's story is also a complete mess and jumble of random stuff that people are picking up the pieces even today. Reconstructing what that game was supposed to be to get it into a state of coherence is not very different from actual archeological work, I can tell from experience. It's fun, it's cannon (for some reason), but as published, as patched and even as pedantically modded by people with "trying to stay as faithful to the original design" as possible, it's still a compete mess. A spectacular and highly addictive one though. It's more of a trippy western than anything else, really XD


Fallout 3... well, it was more faithful to the original than Fallout 2 in many respects. Unfortunately, it was the wrong ones. They just took the predictable and generic (but somewhat iconic) elements from fallout 1 (which get overlooked as such because of all the memorably distinct ones), picked up the half-baked semi-implemented villans of fallout 2, and the ethic myopia of a wargame/shooter... and well, got something which is technically a fallout game, but nowhere nearly as interesting.

New Vegas was just a properly developed fallout 2 for the most part.
 
Fo2 main story lack of focus indeed. It feels like they are saying out loud that the story isn't the point of the game, which is understandable considering they lampshade the fact that your character being a chosen one is ridiculous and that the GECK is more a macguffin that a relevant object. But i wouldn't call it a mess. It has good writting, a well-thought gameworld, most of it as a meaning & some depth, and the main story itself get focus back near the end, and is a nice counterpart to the one of the first game. I also prefer when the main story is still relevant in the side stories, but this is a design choice, not necessary plot holes. (Although, Fo2 story is still less interesting that Fo1-FoNV story, and maybe even less than FoT story)

Of course, we are talking about the main story. Fo2 is the best game of the series in many other areas.
(notably, they have the most contents in each locations, as each one had its team)
 
Fo2 main story lack of focus indeed. It feels like they are saying out loud that the story isn't the point of the game, which is understandable considering they lampshade the fact that your character being a chosen one is ridiculous and that the GECK is more a macguffin that a relevant object. But i wouldn't call it a mess. It has good writting, a well-thought gameworld, most of it as a meaning & some depth, and the main story itself get focus back near the end, and is a nice counterpart to the one of the first game. I also prefer when the main story is still relevant in the side stories, but this is a design choice, not necessary plot holes. (Although, Fo2 story is still less interesting that Fo1-FoNV story, and maybe even less than FoT story)

Of course, we are talking about the main story. Fo2 is the best game of the series in many other areas.
(notably, they have the most contents in each locations, as each one had its team)

Well, so, I guess you can compare the main story between the games.

One theme that was consistent in the series up to that point was anti-authoritarianism. Yes, in FO1 you have knights and wizards who give you the magic armor and weapons you need to save the world from the orcs, but they're dickish about it and by not getting involved they make it your personal empowerment fantasy (and then the overseer does what he does further driving the individualist theme). In Fallout 2 you're an indian going around a messy trippy western road trip being laughed at, manipulated, threatened, lied to and harrassed by most autority figures or officials you meet and it turns out you were right all along, the world is pretty crazy and violent and you and the dudes in you're village had the right idea. Vault Dweller and The Chosen One were the ultimate "only sane man"

I think the problem with Fallout 3 story is that it's more "Murica saves the day". The fallout series always catered to the paranoid individualist (so it's adolescent appeal transcends the gory and tastless parts of it and goes much deeper), Fallout 1 made it seemless, Fallout 2 made it tongue-in-cheek. Fallout 3 went from "yeah, f**k Murica" to "Murica f**k yeah!", and that kinda doesn't really work. It plays out the 50ties power fantasy, it doesn't subvert them, and 50ties (and power fantasies derived from them) were one of if not THE most conformist and totalitarian era in US history. Fallout series was not about recreating the 50ties, and Fallout 1 in particular was VERY MUCH not about affirming it's values.

Militaristic faschism vs. Militaristic faschism you always get in more wargamey games and most "modern" or WWII shooters makes a game set in Fallout universe seem like "not really a Fallout game". In the first game you have grotesque ultra conservatives (overseer and BoS respecitvely) against grotesque radical avantgarde (mutants), and they all suck and saving the world or dooming it so thankless that it makes you a tragic hero in a single cutscene/dialogue. In the second game (due to production quirks more than intentional effort) you save the world... accidentaly, more or less, you're only really looking to save your village (or not even that but you ran into this dude wh gave you a quest to go someplace called Navarro and you next thing you know you're on this secret easter egg location like the ones with the Monty Phyton references except this, one, lol, get this, has the President of the united states in it, ahahhahahahah).

Third one has white knights beating the natzies. That's 50ties wank dream, Fallout is kinda supposed to be 50ties worst trip! Th design doc shoulda been - 50's aesthetic YES, 50's values - god no, anything but that!
 
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I think it is faire to include FoT too in the comparison, seing how they handle an overpowerfull BOS that could end up wrong, and the fact that the super-mutants ultimate weapon of mass destruction is just a research lab to cure sterility, with a femal scientist that is desperate to have children. It is better than Fo3 on the land of perspective, grey morality & power abuse.

About "Murica f**k yeah!" i am not really sure how they actually handle it. In some moments, it feel like they have the full patriotic vibe, like with Liberty Prime, how they handle the chinese, the fact that they handle the great war siding more with the US, while US/china were previously as bad as each other. On the other hand, they have kept the Enclave as main antagonist, they put the Enclave radio, full of patriotic crap. They also have many computers, logs, holodisks that tell that not only the great war and the life in the vault were horrible, but even the world before the war. The Fallout pre-war US is depicted as a crapsack world, even in Fo3. My take on it is that they tried to stay a minimum faithfull, for consistency purpose (minimal level of consistency) while, at the same time, reduce the anti-patriotism thing, in order to reduce the controversy, and increase their playerbase. It is not unlikely that a good part of their new playerbase is patriotic and wouldn't want to hear any of that "anti-us-gov propaganda shit".

It is also possible that those who wrote computers logs were other writters, unchecked, more faithfull to the Lore, while the dialogs were main by the main team, and be more checked by the marketing team.

It is sad that it has became mainstream, losing a lot of it guts & soul in the process.
With a bit of luck, it might be less mainstream someday...
Or Obsidian could make a new post-apo self-published IP, that would change the cosmetic enough to be not sued by Beth, but bring back the soul & heart of Fo. InXile did great with Wasteland 2, but they had to be more faithfull to WL1, which i think they did well, but it is not the same without dialogs tree, the more serious tone of Fallout, the sneaking, the reputation system etc... (which is fair, as Wasteland & Falllout are two differents franchise, with their own identity)
 
Fallout 1 felt realistic and the story felt important. I wanted to save the vault and actually hated the muties when the began butchering places.

Fallout 2's story was just shite. I never cared about saving my village, they all seemed like simpletons and assholes. One minute you're among tribals... then cowboys... then gangsters... then asians... then storm troopers! It's like one big joke, and it's to blame for most of the crap that came after.

Fallout 3 the story wasn't THAT bad, but all the characters were like empty shells, so I just didn't care enough.

Fallout 2 and 3 have the same story problem don't they? "I just really just don't give enough of a fuck to save your life. Sorry."

And the tribals? Give me a fuckin' break man. I'm sure the Chosen One just ran the Temple of Trials to get the fuck out of that village and wear some real clothes for once. I'm tired of everyone in the village staring at my dick.

And Vault 101? Shit. Man that was a fuck-up from the start. I didn't even bother saving Amata or dealing with security guards. Butch asked me to save his mom from rad-roaches? Really. Your a prick to me my whole life, then you see me with a gun and all of a sudden get real nice. There was a quote I always liked, would rather learn from the streets instead of going to high school everyday just to get my ass beat. "Sure butch, i'll save your mom". I put a cap in both of those motherfuckers. Give me a poem for my birthday. Fuck you. And then when you finally meet up with you Dad. Alright, alright, I fought Supermutants, giant irradiated Mole Rats that seem to pop up outta nowhere and scare the fuck out of you. Well, until you unload the clip in their skull. RAIDERS that probably would have sniped me from 100 yards away given the chance just for the clothes off my back. I had to walk around giant fucking cockroaches man! Why did you leave. "Oh, well, I never intended for you to follow me..." Wait. Wait, wait, wait. We have a power-mad insane overseer in Vault 101 bent on not letting anyone out, and you DIDN'T want or expect me to follow you? 'the fuck you think was gonna happen when you left? "Ah, alarms are going off, security guards are beating motherfuckers down at sight, and my dad's no where to be found, but it's all good. I think I'll skip work today, sit in and just drink/wait it out". So then he says "the life down there has to be better than up here". Exactly, so why in the fuck did you leave, not only dooming my life down here, but forcing me out in to this irradiated fucking backwater where I can't find one town without someone hitting me up for clean water..

Just saying.
 
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Fallout 2 and 3 have the same story problem don't they? "I just really just don't give enough of a fuck to save your life. Sorry."

Yes but for very different reasons. And, strangely enough, the Fallout 3 reasons actually work badly on fewer people than the Fallout 2 reasons, the big problem is that the Fallout 3 reasons simply don't work on an average diehard Fallout fan.

Fallout 2 simply plugs the main story out basically right off the bat, plugs it back in very rarely, and you kinda find out about world saving in the final dialogue or one or two dialogues back at the final location. First you're looking around for a suitcase (you don't even know that it is a suitcase) most people never herd of and those who did are kinda sure it's gone. Then you find it, and the people who sent you looking for it disappear. And you barely had any time to develop an attachment, or build a relationship - technicaly, when you find the suitcase and they dissapear you can even feel relief because you're not on a clock anymore. And then you find them by turning every rock over, and you save them becaue there's nothing better to do. There's no real way to have a stance on the whole thing, you find the suitcase or the game ends, and then... nothing.

Fallout 3 has more of a proper, reasonable story (plotholes notwithstanding, Fallout 2 doesn't have anything to have plotholes IN), but the content and the motivations and the characters and organizations involved - you can actually not care about enough for personal reasons/taste. That story is more US patriotic (it's very clearly a game made in a different america), more family values oriented, more... well, more tons of stuff which doesn't appeal to an average Fallout fan. Probably does to a wider audience though.
 
That story is more US patriotic (it's very clearly a game made in a different america), more family values oriented, more... well, more tons of stuff which doesn't appeal to an average Fallout fan. Probably does to a wider audience though.


Well, what is the most "patriotic" era/decade (decade being the more suitable word here) of American civilian life you can think of? Please don't say after 9-11. American's were prepared into invading Afghanistan in order to prepare them for the subsequent invasion of Iraq. I'm not saying the oval office were the ones behind 9-11, but I also know they wanted Iraq and Hussein real bad, and why not erase some of America's own historical bone-head fuck up's while you can at the same time? By this, I mean helping out Osama and the Mujahadeen (later taken the name of Al'Qaeda) in fighting the Soviet's in the 80's, and then that guy using the weapons we gave him to fight us. I mean if that doesn't look like stupidity in it's own essence I don't know what does. But DESPITE THAT, going back on task.

What was the most patriotic decade in the United States, besides after 9/11 (for reasons stated above), and besides after the American Revolution (since the Federal government started imposing taxes of their own on the states, which was the whole reason the states fought the revolution was to escape tyranny (taxes) imposed on them by King George and the British Parliament in order to pay for the War of 1812 (French-Indian War), a war the Americans not only didn't want, but fought and died in anyways). So in disregard to the two things I stated above, what is the most patriotic decade of American history. Well, kind of you to ask. It was the 50's. We had just won the World War, our troops (most of them anyways) were coming home, and we were able to prove American superiority and that we have a place in world affairs, instead of those in America who exercised the idea of American isolationism (an idea very popular in and before World War I, and before World War II and it's beginning years. Once the press started to produce all of that propaganda though (which was produced on levels which hadn't been seen since the Civil War), the isolationist idea slowly died down, and isolationists were slowly being called fascists. We've dealt with a lot in our short life-time, America's short life time I mean, not the members of NMA.

• Colonization of the America's
• Native American tribes attempting to starve out our first (British-American) settlement Jamestown which even led our colonists to cannibalism
• The British make us help them fight the French in the French-Indian war/War of 1812, something they still TO THIS DAY justify (no offense)
• fighting the British, a world superpower,
• fighting the Native-Americans (who as a half-Native ((Sioux tribe in case you wondered)) the US probably shouldn't have fought at all, but worked together)
• fighting eachother (the Union v.s. the Confederacy),
• fighting Trans-Atlantic Imperialism
• fighting ourselves again, this time in the political/diplomatic arena against whether we should be involved in Europe's affairs (fighting Isolationism which at the time many politicians were in agreement with)
• fighting European Expansionism-Imperialism-Superpowers, a little war known as The Great War or World War I ("double-ya double-ya one", as the old-timers from the baby-boomer era would say)
• AGAIN fighting European forced-expansion, this time in the form of Fascism
• Fighting Japanese Imperialism-Fascism in a Naval-Air war which was bigger than any man who ever lived on this Earth had ever seen (this is stacked with what I posted above me)
• A very short time of relative peace for our civilians, in the meantime the American-British allies were planning another possible war against the Soviets
The American people are happy, and very patriotic (Fallout's essence) after the second World War and in light of our new technological gains
• A long battle against communism (real wars being: Korea, Vietnam, Afghanistan)
• Communism falls (kinda) and we're in peace and all patriotic again
• Another long battle with terrorism
• Fighting the economy
• And finally we hit the modern-world

So, do you get what I mean? The 50's was one of the only real moments of American superiority and pure-patriotism. Not just Jack is a patriot but Sue isn't, but EVERYONE loved America. Even the Brits and French (who were still kind of holding a grudge for not stepping in sooner in World War I to save their country from being taken by the Germans, which we pulled the same shit in World-War II) were growing fond of us. NATO becomes a reality. The United Nations replaced the United League (which we refused to join after WWI). We are now actively working over BOTH seas in the affairs of others. Isolationism had been stomped on (for better or worse). But a new, maybe even bigger enemy was rising over the horizon. Communism and the possible threat of world-wide nuclear war. It can't even be called a war since it's more like a rock fight. The moment someone gets pegged in the head with a rock it's over, but not before that person pegs the other guy back. Both go home with a relatively bad headache, and deciding a rock-fight was a relatively bad idea to solve their problems.
 
^ Oh, I get what you mean perfectly, analysing the American fifties is a big part of my major thesis. And it's not really that everyone loved america in the fifities - fifites were one of the most opressive and totalitarian times in USA history, which is actually the real reason the 60ties exploded with unrest when all that broke apart. The media and the nostalgic look on "simpler times" were all about how EVERYONE was a patriot, while in reality America went through an uncharacteristicaly scary political period of purges, televized witch trials, racialy inspired bombings and all sorts of crap which set the stage for everything that followed (the major civil unrest in the sixties, the economic disasters of the seventies, the dismantling of local manufacture in the 80ties) etc etc...


Which is just the thing - 50ties are the "We are teh bestest" propaganda, bigotry and totalitarianism era of the states, and Fallout was never about enforcing the values of the 50ties. It's actually quite obvious that it was made by the people who grew up admist the cultural and economic fallout, pun lol, of all the crap that went boom in the seventies because of all the crap that was going on behind the scenes in the fifties while the media put up a sanitized vision which was broadcast by the new mass media (making it seem like everyone was happy, and transmiting messages of mindless optimism to people who were unused to it - TV was new tech, whouldn't you know it...).

So Fallout 1 and 2 are games, and quite visibly so, made by and for people for whom disilusionment with America is kinda the default. Heck, even inspiring action/war movies that could've (and probably did) influence them were movies about mercenaries, individuals, disilusioned/disenfranchised soldiers (think Mad Max, Aliens, Rambo, Terminator, Predator, whatever etc.)

Heck, the second half of the 20th century is one big reaction to the 50ties, that's how creepy, sanitized, censored and artificial they were. So it's not incidental that the Overseer does what he does in the end, or that the president of the USA turns out to be the main villan of FO2. Fallout series was a big f**k you to the 50ties (helped by the fact that a lot of pop culture for 40 odd years preceding it was also that, so it you're making a troperific / derivative story it's unavoidable).


Fallout 3 played a 50ties fantasy - straight. And was lapped up in part by a generation which grew up in an 9/11 America, small wonder there. This is one of the main bases of why Fallout 3 doesn't agree with many original series fans, even if they're not aware of it or understand this completely, "America saves the day" just isn't supposed to happen in a Fallout game, Fallout wasn't about recreating the artificial optimism or patriotism of the 50ties, it was about using it's creepyness to great effect. Heck, any sort of black and white morality conflict doesn't work too well either, patriotism or no patriotism.

(EDIT: And one more point - 50ties were reeeeeealy into selling merchandize through the idea that technological progress has finally brough about paradise. And the tech boom and advances in day to day life because of it was unprecedented - antibiotics, mass produced refrigerators, washing machines, media outlets, chemistry, steel, wonders were happening. A lot of the 50ties optimism is technophilic to the extreme, and fallout basicaly starts out on the premise that it's was all worth f**k all and that technological progress blew s**t up right back into stone age and barbarism. Except the more tech someone has the more inhumane/paranoidly elitist he's going to be, with less justification. A common trope for decades after the fifties, as they, like the Vault project, failed to deliver on their promises, and for those to which it did deliver - they turned out to be Vault City. Those aristocratic bigots are living the 50ties ideal, that was Fallouts take on the whole thing.)


And well, this happened with other games too. There was a time best selling shooters were about a space marine fighting deamons on mars, there was duke nukem, various quakes, unreal tournament, guns were supposed to be colorful and funny... and now there's a million call of duty, modern warfare and simmilar stuff - you could litterally see tastes and times change before your eyes.
 
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Don't know if you like these kind of games, but BioShock: Infinite explores a lot of those same themes. It also has an old-shooter style gameplay, and is nothing like Call of Duty. Guns and weapons are indeed very colorful.

It also explores a lot of Fallout's own small secondary themes. Such as Sci-Fi (not mass effect-esque Sci Fi either). Except they aren't dealing with the fifties, they are going a little bit further back. The era right before the first World War.

Also, where are you from if you don't mind me asking? Your writing style seems to be British-Anglo Origin, which means you could be from any nation in the Commonwealth. Or you could be from Europe, because they seemed to have developed a very Saxon-like style when writing English.
 
^ Yes, bioshock also runs on the direct opposite of the technophilic late 19 to end of first half ot the 20th century (of which the 50ties were the most advanced stage so to speak), by creeping and weirding you out with not only technology run amok (regardless of the stage of the tech in question) butwith the really, really creepy way it made societies exposed to it and embracing it completely forget about ethics, human rights and so on and so forth.
 
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