J.E. Sawyer on Fallout weapon skills

Brother None

This ghoul has seen it all
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J.E. Saywer writes on his own website about his thoughts on the weapon skills in Fallout's SPECIAL.<blockquote>1) In a game where a player makes an investment in a variety of skills, I believe those skills should be applicable from the beginning of the game to the end of the game. In F1, that wasn't the case with Small Guns/Big Guns/Energy Weapons. In F:NV, it was true for Guns and EWs, but it resulted in a lot of weapon role redundancy between the two skills.

2) I believe taking different skills should change the gameplay of the character. This really has never been true between Small Guns/Guns/EWs. You pretty much use all of them the same way, especially because of role redundancy or application overlap (cf. Laser and Sniper Rifles in F1, Anti-Materiel Rifle and Gauss Rifle in F:NV). It's also not true of Unarmed/Melee Weapons.

3) Not really my beef, but often comes up from other players: EWs in F:NV don't feel suitably powerful compared to conventional firearms. This comes from 1), where I wanted players in the early game to have access to items that consistently made use of their EW skill. Thus, you end up with Laser Pistols and Plasma Pistols that don't feel dramatically different from 9mm Pistols and .357 Magnum Revolvers. They're all starter weapons.

4) Again, not a personal concern, but an issue for many players: there are a ton of weapons and ammo types in F:NV. Even taking subtypes out of the mix, there are far more base types than in any other Fallout game, and an arsenal of weapons -- some people like this, some don't. My concern as a designer is that people are overwhelmed by the number of items and cease to be able to sort, distinguish, and make intelligent choices about what to use, and when. And the more weapons there are, the more difficult they are to balance.</blockquote>Thanks GameBanshee.

Furthermore, a second, equally interesting exchange is taking place on J.E. Sawyer's Formspring:<blockquote>We often develop technology not because it's great immediately, but because developing that technology helps us move toward its potential. We've had various forms of hybrid vehicles (gasoline combustion engine + ???) around for a long time. Most of them were pretty bad and impractical. We've had biofuels around for a while, but most of those are STILL bad and/or impractical. We saw tanks developed in WW1 that were absolute garbage.

All of those things were kind of crummy for a while, but if we hadn't gone through the stage of "Yeah... this is... okay, I guess," we would never have reached the subsequent stages. Coil/rail gun technology used to be completely impractical. Now it's reached the stage where maybe/sorta we could mount an enormous one on a destroyer and blast through a bunker with a huge slug from miles away. We're probably not going to have Eraser- or Fallout-style Gauss rifles for a while, but we see the potential.

In the Fallout universe, I think that the military appeal of weaponry that uses a small number of more-or-less universal ammunition types would be great. Today, we have NATO standards so that allies armies can share ammunition. But what if you could use the same ammunition type for powering a sniper rifle that you'd use for a devastating close-range weapon (e.g. a Microfusion Cell powering a Laser Rifle or a Plasma Rifle)? For a military force in the field, the flexibility of that would be immense.

Anyway, I considered the EWs in F:NV to have reached the point where they were starting to replace conventional weapons, but had not yet completely eclipsed them -- sort of like the early days of firearms, when they were still being used concurrently with bows.</blockquote>
 
Yeah, but the whole point of a separation of EWs and regular weapons was to explain the radical difference of operations between the two.
 
Stanislao Moulinsky said:
I see what he means but I think they did a good job at differentiating the various weapon skills in New Vegas.

I agree.
However, I think that simplifying the skill system even further, when it comes to weapons skills, would be a bit too radical.
 
Atomkilla said:
Stanislao Moulinsky said:
I see what he means but I think they did a good job at differentiating the various weapon skills in New Vegas.

I agree.
However, I think that simplifying the skill system even further, when it comes to weapons skills, would be a bit too radical.

What he proposed though (on Something Awful he also stated he wants to try the solution as a mod, and if it's moddable, I admit I'm not sure why it wasn't already attempted by the community) is not a simplification, but a change altogether, instead of grouping firearms by their types of ammo, they'd be grouped based on their role, say "Automatic" and "Precise" (his definitions, not mine):
Bros, I am thinking of making a supplemental mod as an experiment. The experiment would do the following things:

* Replace Guns and Energy Weapons with (temp names) Precise Firearms and Automatic Firearms.
* Move flamey things into Explosives.
* Re-balance what were previously Guns/EWs with EWs typically being superior versions of Guns. E.g. a Laser Rifle is better than a Hunting Rifle (Precise), a Gatling Laser is a better version of a Minigun (Automatics).

I'm not sure if it will produce good results, but I think it's worth trying out.
 
That is more interesting and makes more sense but I'm not sure if I prefer it over the actual Guns/EW division. The problem is that, when you come down to it, it would make guns inferior to EW thus "forcing" a player to use them even if he doesn't want to or goes against the character he's roleplaying. It makes more sense in-universe but gameplay should always come first.

Putting flamey weapons into Explosives is a good idea, though.
 
I just don't want my beloved Brush Gun to become a shitty weapon. :> Cowboy-style is how I roll, yo.

Especially because I hate how Fo3-esque energy weapons are looking like and I tend to chose my weapon and armor based on style, not on stats.
 
Atomkilla said:
WorstUsernameEver said:

That definitely isn't simplifying, but is still quite radical.
Nonetheless, if it is moddable, it is certainly worth a shot.

Undoubtedly, but we have already moved away a lot from the original title's skill subdvision anyway, may as well just focus on making a deep, good system.

And yeah, in the blog post he acknowledged that role-playing a cowboy/grunt character would be more difficult/impossible, which would be disappointing, although I don't think it's a realistic expectation to think that the system can cater to every possible character you can imagine in detail.

My preferred alternative would personally to make energy weapons give a different gameplay experience, but that's quite fuzzy, and I can't really manage to think of anything that fits the lore and also offers something different from guns while still being balanced and viable throughout the entire game. Not that it's my job to.
 
Atomkilla said:
Stanislao Moulinsky said:
I see what he means but I think they did a good job at differentiating the various weapon skills in New Vegas.

I agree.
However, I think that simplifying the skill system even further, when it comes to weapons skills, would be a bit too radical.

I also agree. They simplified it enough as it is. I think the New Vegas system was perfect really. If anything they should add more skills because survival rocked. I do understand him wanting to combine unarmed and melee though. I don't want to be forced to use energy weapons either.
 
I dunno about deep and good. Sawyer's answer to a lot of quandaries in the SPECIAL skill system always seems to be to just remove skills. Very brute force, I'm not sure I like it. This was the case back in the Van Buren discussions too, he always wanted to simplify and got a lot of shit for it.

Was the old system perfect? Hell no. But I'm not sure I agree with his idea that they all must be equally useful throughout the game. A lot of RPG systems have low-level and high-level skills, or allow you to switch (Tag!) halfway through.

Making energy weapons high-level versions of old-style weapons is a terrible solution. The split between energy and guns has always been one of those key choices in combat builds.
 
I don't know, I'm finding it difficult to be convinced that having low-level play and high-level play skills on the same field can ever be a good idea. That's actually one of the thing I still don't like of SPECIAL as it is now, because Survival and Guns simply are not important in the same way, especially when most of the game emphasizes combat in spades.

P.S. : I don't think that SPECIAL, as it is now (FO3 and NV), is a particularly good system, btw, that was more of a general discourse.
 
WorstUsernameEver said:
I don't know, I'm finding it difficult to be convinced that having low-level play and high-level play skills on the same field can ever be a good idea.

Don't need to be in the same field. Plenty of games adjust for it. The DSA system gives skills weight, so that key skills are harder to upgrade. The problem with SPECIAL is not that its skills are better and worse, it's that the system makes no distinction in upgrading the better or worse skills, either in skill weight or in perks.
 
Brother None said:
But I'm not sure I agree with his idea that they all must be equally useful throughout the game.

I agree with this in a big way. In the original Fallout, I never really had an issue making the transition from small guns to energy weapons or big guns. It actually felt pretty natural to me.

Has Sawyer ever explained this desire to have every skill be useful from the beginning of the game? I have seem him reference this a motivation many times, but I don't know if I have seen him make the philosophical argument behind it.
 
Brother None said:
Sawyer's answer to a lot of quandaries in the SPECIAL skill system always seems to be to just remove skills.

Hah, yes. My jaw literally dropped when I saw the skill list for Van Buren - it was pretty much identical to that of Fallout 3's! The fact that he simply put the skill 'Firearms' was pretty damn horrendous. This is Bethesda style - simplifying and dumbing everything down.

I'm kind of liking the layout of Wasteland skills - hell, they could include even far more as long as you make the game big enough to make use of all of them. They could of course make a more restricted system where you have to tag a combat skill, an active skill and a passive skill (i.e. Guns, First Aid and Speech), but that doesn't sound too interesting to me.
 
Sub-Human said:
Brother None said:
Sawyer's answer to a lot of quandaries in the SPECIAL skill system always seems to be to just remove skills.

Hah, yes. My jaw literally dropped when I saw the skill list for Van Buren - it was pretty much identical to that of Fallout 3's! The fact that he simply put the skill 'Firearms' was pretty damn horrendous. This is Bethesda style - simplifying and dumbing everything down.

I'm kind of liking the layout of Wasteland skills - hell, they could include even far more as long as you make the game big enough to make use of all of them. They could of course make a more restricted system where you have to tag a combat skill, an active skill and a passive skill (i.e. Guns, First Aid and Speech), but that doesn't sound too interesting to me.

Honestly that is what I usually do anyway. I like to tag Speech no matter what for some reason. Then I usually pick one of the Gun ones, but sometimes go Melee. Then I have a miscellaneous skill which will vary.
 
Brother None said:
The problem with SPECIAL is not that its skills are better and worse, it's that the system makes no distinction in upgrading the better or worse skills, either in skill weight or in perks.

Isn't that.. kind of the point? I have no qualms with either solution, though I'd imagine from Sawyer's perspective going with less skills all on the same playing field would be better to avoid having the players making terrible decisions. I just don't personally see what's so terrible with reorganizing weapon skills though. I never felt like energy weapons, or even big guns, were different in a meaningful gameplay perspective. They had cooler crits animations than guns though, I'll give you that :P
 
Why should he avoid the players making terrible decisions? That's up to the players.

Also weapon skills are important because it's such a big part of gameplay, even more so in the modern Fallouts, so the ability to properly customize my character is key to it being successful as a role-playing game in that aspect. New Vegas only succeeded at that through perks, and barely.
 
Brother None said:
Why should he avoid the players making terrible decisions? That's up to the players.

There's nothing inherently bad about it, but the vast majority of role-playing games that have been mainstream successful lately minimized the chance of the player screwing up, and that's clearly something that J.E. Sawyer believes in, not only because it's more mainstream-friendly but because he thinks it's better. Not sure if I agree, but I think his (Obsidian's ?) philosophy is that the choice should change stuff, but per se, never allow you to outright fail.
 
Fail is a separate question though. You can beat Fallout with any character build, but you can make things very difficult for yourself.

And yeah, that philosophy is very popular now, and it's very, very wrong. There's no point to playing a video game if it doesn't allow me to fail.
 
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