Joel Burgess and Nathan Purpkeypile on Level Design at GDC

Tagaziel

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As The Vault reports, Joel Burgess (lead world designer) has recently published a transcript of his Game Developers' Conference presentation focusing on the level design philosophy of Bethesta Game Studios.

Co-written and co-presented with Nathan Purkeypile (world artist), it provides insight into how Bethesda develops their environments and the principles lying at the foundation of their work:<blockquote>There are two points to make here. The first and most obvious: this approach allows a small number of artists to support a much larger team of designers, who can in turn generate a lot more content than those two artists otherwise could. The example provided by Skyrim shows just how effective this approach can be, when only two artists were required to provide the core art behind so much content.

The second, less-obvious point is the more important one, however. Think of the other 80 people in that team photograph. Because such a relatively small group was able to handle the dungeon component of the game, it allowed the rest to focus on the myriad other needs of the game, whether it was landscaping the massive world, writing and scripting the many quests, contributing to character art and animation, working in the guts of our game code.

Of course, there’s another reason that Skyrim had only two full-time kit artists; kits are really complicated things to work on. Kits require not only the artistic ability to produce high quality visuals, but also a technical competency in their art tool, a deep understanding of the editor and design workflow, and so on. This unique blend of left and right brain is somewhat at odds with what many art professionals value. I've worked with great artists who make excellent kits but hate working on them - so they don't.

So when you’re trying to identify somebody with the the aptitude and interest to be a great kit artist, you’re basically looking for a unicorn. They're rare.</blockquote>Link: Skyrim's Modular Level Design on Joel Burgess' blog.

Thanks, The Vault.
 
Production methodologies, tech and tools, workflow, pipeline - it’s all informed by a need for efficiency.

And yet pretty much everyone that's used the GECK or Bethesda's tools in general will tell you that they're about to fall apart for every little thing and are full of broken scripting functions, unwieldy tools to write dialogue, etc. etc.
 
You couldn't boil Skyrim down to a six-hour game and expect to provide the same experience. Scope isn't a random attribute of our games; it’s a major feature
This is ironic because it only took me about six hours to lose interest because of how mundane and copy-pasted everything was due to this ridiculous design bottleneck.
 
Crni Vuk said:
not to mention the main quest is always rather short.
Right? Maybe four or five hours at the maximum; because of enemy scaling there isn't even the possibility that you'll have to spend a lot of time gearing up.

Oblivion, Fallout 3, and Skyrim are all a mile wide and an inch deep, and that inch is mostly filled with a foul-smelling liquid.
 
Consider this list of features, which together make up the rough measure of Skyrim’s world-building needs:

16 sq. mile Overworld
5 Major Cities
2 Hidden Worldspaces
300+ Dungeons
140+ Points of Interest
37 Towns, Farms & Villages
There's your problem! Quality is more important than quantity for me which is why Bethesda's games, and many other sandbox games, really don't appeal to me. The focus is on creating more and more stuff, not creating the best stuff possible. What is the purpose of 300+ dungeons when only a fraction of them have something unique and interesting in them?

Interesting article on kits, though I'm amused that they have only recently started using "helper markers". I wonder if it isn't something gained from using a new engine or just a feature they never used before.
 
Actually I would rather see them do maybe 2 or a maximum of 3 locations, but done well. Like 2 Really well thought out and big cities, with their rulers that might even have some strong rivalry. Not an high number of cities and one pathetic location with 20 people, calling it "the capital of our nation/province ...". Wow.

Not to mention, more is sometimes less. Its better to have just a few locations, but which make sense. You can still keep exploration. But 150 locations of "interest"? How to make it NOT interesting then when it is so much ...

Seriously. As designer, I would have no clue how to fill all of it without making it repetitive. I mean even if you want to do that mammoth work of creating interesting content, you can not avoid repetitive content, quests, dungeons, locations and NPCs that feel either like filler or something that is very similar. This time you have to rescue someone from assassination, next time you do the assassination, another quest you rescue again someone from bandits ... and so on. This really does not help to create meaningful NPCs either. A good game, any game, that is trying to create a believable world has to give it room to breathe. To develop the NPCs, just as how an character has to "level" up the player has to get to know the NPCs. Its impossible to write all of them in a way that everyone likes them, but chance is high that if you have a few very different character that people will always find one they really like a lot and care about. I mean take your time have your companions tell sometimes things from their life. Or just go in to a few details and so on.

I think such an approach would fit much better to worlds Bethesda is creating, making them "smaller". Because in the end, their worlds even with all that content, felt to small and cramped. Well fast travel probably helped with that as well ... but still.

to be fair though, as far as the locations go, Skyrim felt A LOT better then Oblivion here. It seems like they really tried to make some or most of the somewhat believable, and particularly the smaller villages really do feel like that. But some of their cities still fall apart, because they are like "we have this major civil war out there!", about what? Two towns that are like 5min from each other with maybe 5 soldiers around? I guess the whole empire must consist of maybe 1000 citizens ...
 
I played Skyrim a whole weekend, but I got off the main quest very early on, because it was retarded [spoiler:55417d624c]Mountain hermit #1: "Try saying "THOOOM!", berk."
You press a button and... "THOOOOM!!"
Mountain hermit #3: "Ooh!"
Mountain hermit #6: "Aaah!"
Mountain hermit #1: "Oho, you must be the Chosen One!"

this is where I walked off the mountain and went looking for awesome magical loot and shiny stones instead...
[/spoiler:55417d624c]

The locations were fine as long as you didn't have to go underground too much. Aaand didn't talk to anybody.
If they had two main artists on it then that could explain the results: there were two or three nice-looking locations + a few original dungeons, but the rest of them were rather copy-paste off of these few. It was actually not bad to walk on a mountain and blink up at the aurora and wave my oversized axe at the stars.

Btw, did anyone else think that the mechanist ruins were like a super 3D version of Arcanum dwarfs' mines?
 
Tagaziel said:
Well, it's a given, considering that the Dwemer are the Dwarves of the the TES universe.

I was just surprised that they're mechanist dwarves of the TES universe.

edit: I guess I should mention that my first encounter with TES games was with Oblivion which I didn't really play at all and then Skyrim which I played a little, but didn't go through with the main quest...
 
as far as the lore goes they are not really dwarves, but just an race that actually lived under the earth.

http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Dwemer

Technicaly the Elder Scroll setting has no Dwarves in the traditional tolkin like sense. Not to mention they also had actually the size of a normal human and would rather look more like typical elves.
 
Ya they're ''dwarves'' because giants named them such and it stuck for some reason. They were human-sized elvish-like people actually. TES has a lot of variety when it comes to elves.

About the article, they could really, really have stuck to 75-100ish dungeons (instead of a whopping 300) and added something unique in each. Unique weapons, named enemies, really different layout, that sort of things. They did have many original dungeons, but they tended to be lost in the morass of generic ones.

As for cities, they should have gone for 2, 3 max (Whiterun, Solitude, Windhelm), and make them really stand out. Make them big, with a loading screen if you must because of consoles. ''cities'' in Skyrim barely feel like small towns, and after playing Assassin's Creed putting 30 people behind walls just doesn't cut it anymore. Oh and the ''minor cities'' were jokes. Winterhold, provincial capital? 4 houses and a ruined one. Seriously, there's more people in the nearest bandit cave...
 
Ilosar said:
Seriously, there's more people in the nearest bandit cave...

At first I was going to say that, y'know, realistically speaking, when we look at some historical real-world cities, the places would have looked fine, but then you got to that line and I laughed out loud. Never thought of it that way :clap:

Named enemies would be good, but I found fighting stronger enemies in Skyrim and Oblivion very tedious because of the combat system. I think that's something that works in a DnD or even turn-based game. It wasn't the kind of action I was looking for - but true, combat system is another issue entirely and I guess there are people who like it for the reasons I dislike it.
 
Ilosar said:
As for cities, they should have gone for 2, 3 max (Whiterun, Solitude, Windhelm), and make them really stand out. Make them big, with a loading screen if you must because of consoles. ''cities'' in Skyrim barely feel like small towns, and after playing Assassin's Creed putting 30 people behind walls just doesn't cut it anymore. Oh and the ''minor cities'' were jokes. Winterhold, provincial capital? 4 houses and a ruined one. Seriously, there's more people in the nearest bandit cave...

Imagine Fallout: New Vegas done on Assassin's Creed engine, with the proper mod tools.
 
Tagaziel said:
Imagine Fallout: New Vegas done on Assassin's Creed engine, with the proper mod tools.

I'm not sure how some aspects would work, but the stealthy approaches would get a whole new feel
 
Not to mention towns with people. Not as crowded as in AC, but definitely bigger and more believable. Hell, that'd work great with a worldmap.
 
Gaspard said:
Ilosar said:
Seriously, there's more people in the nearest bandit cave...

At first I was going to say that, y'know, realistically speaking, when we look at some historical real-world cities, the places would have looked fine, but then you got to that line and I laughed out loud. Never thought of it that way :clap:

Named enemies would be good, but I found fighting stronger enemies in Skyrim and Oblivion very tedious because of the combat system. I think that's something that works in a DnD or even turn-based game. It wasn't the kind of action I was looking for - but true, combat system is another issue entirely and I guess there are people who like it for the reasons I dislike it.
realism? Alreay in the dark ages a few cities like Constantinople or Tenochtitlan had very high populations. And in the ancient world there have been as well a few very huge cities with big populations, like Rome or Athens and various Egyptian cities. Sure you cant compare those really with New York or Mexico City. But still. Even with realism you will not get far in Beth games, because they do a very bad job as far as verimilitude goes. Albeit I have to say they really tried to do a better job in Skyrim this time. But particularly when they try to get on "size", giving you the feeling this is the center of the province or somehing, they do a bad job. its always the same. They just cant really give you the feeling of "size". And then they go with this epicness, all the time, big huge war, evil deamon invasion ... and an epic battle with 20 people ... oh boy ... its like they dont even try it sometimes believing their playerbase would be stupid or something. And its not like it would be impossible to do those things.
 
DF-Daggerfall_City_Map.jpg

Bethesda already did a game with properly sized cities. Well, not perfect, but good enough. Population ~200.
And yeah, walking through cities this big isn't all that much fun.
 
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