Madrid Terrorist Bombings

[Wooz]

I was talking about current coalition members' intelligence and material situation regarding a terrorist attack, not historical legacy.

In any case, extremist islam groups *could* find a historical link against Poland, think Sobieski and the Muslim Turks under Vienna. That also was major "Muslim incursion".

Strangely enough, there is a Muslim minority in north Poland.

 

[victor]

I've never understood why claiming to have done the attack is a proof of guilt. Maybe they're saying that to get publicity, you know? I mean if I were to call the Mayor of Madrid or whoever, and say that I had done the attack, would I be guilty? It would be "Oh my god, Baboon is t3h terrorista!". I could stuff a van full of pipboy dolls and park it next to the train station too. Oh, and a Red Ryder BB gun (special edition) with it to connect me to the crime.

I still have my doubts about Al-quaida being responsible for the attack, that's all.

 

[John Uskglass]

In any case, extremist islam groups *could* find a historical link against Poland, think Sobieski and the Muslim Turks under Vienna. That also was major "Muslim incursion".

Strangely enough, there is a Muslim minority in north Poland.

You know your history well. Surprising that you are still an anarchist.


Yes, the Poles did kick Turkish ass at the Battle of Vienna (I belive the Turks actually broke the walls, when the Poles came in), but the Turks where just trying to expand thier Empire into areas that where never Muslim. This is diffirent from the Spanish, who are the people who where at the head of Muslim civilization for half a millinea.

Muslim minority from the Soviet days, or from the Prussian days?

 

[Wooz]

Please, don't put primitivism, communism and anarchism into the same box.

Muslim minority from the Soviet days, or from the Prussian days?

Neither. Tatar raid days.
Those people are, more or less, descendants of tatar/mongol origin. They have a couple of architecturally very interesting wooden mosques.

 

[Big T]

B) They.claimed.the.attack.

IIRC, they (Al Qaeda) didn't claim 9/11, at least at first)some other group did. After the scale of the attack/outcry was apparent, the other group then denied the claim.
Just claiming it does not mean that they did it (though of course it makes it a large possibility).

The Spanish government, however, is trying to pin it on the ETA, which I find a lot more daft.

It's not that strange that ETA is one of the main suspects, AFAIK they are the only terrorist group active in Spain.

As it is, there is now more evidence that it was AQ, in the construction of the devices some components were made out of copper, which AQ usually uses, rather than the aluminium that ETA uses.
Obviously this is just one peice of evidence that points at AQ (just like the method of attack was one peice of evidence that pointed at ETA)

 

[EyeMaster7]

And what could the ETA possibly gain by incriminating Al Qaeda?

On sunday the spaniards are going to chose the new members of the parliament. Aznar (Spain's prime minister) is being accused of trowing the spain in a stupid war. The allegation of WMD (Weapons of Mass Destruction) is false. The spanish companies are not taking their "share" of iraq due to its violent resistance. Spanish soldiers were killed in iraq. And the 200 death toll is the price the spaniards are paying for joining the coalizition.


So the election on sunday depends on who planted that bombs in the train. If it was Al Qaeda the actual government is going to lose its majority in the parliament and a new prime minister is going to be chosen. If ETA planted that bombs the government is going to keep tis majority in the parliament. Everything depends on who did that. That's why the spanish government send orders to its ministers and embassors to put the guilt over ETA before any official investigation.

 

[Sander]

IIRC, they (Al Qaeda) didn't claim 9/11, at least at first)some other group did. After the scale of the attack/outcry was apparent, the other group then denied the claim.
Just claiming it does not mean that they did it (though of course it makes it a large possibility).

Indeed. But NOT claiming it makes it extremely unlikely that they did it.

It's not that strange that ETA is one of the main suspects, AFAIK they are the only terrorist group active in Spain.

But it IS strange that the Spanish keeps it's sights on the ETA, while most of the evidence is pointing in the direction Al Qaeda, and the ETA even judged the attacks as bad.(IIRC. Don't have a link....)

@EyeMaster7:
That line of reasoning is interesting, yet it could point in both directions. It could mean that the ETA did do it to get the government kicked out, or it could mean that the governemtn is trying to pin it on the ETA for that exact reason.

 

[alec]

But it IS strange that the Spanish keeps it's sights on the ETA, while most of the evidence is pointing in the direction Al Qaeda, and the ETA even judged the attacks as bad.

That's not that strange, really, especially not if you know that one of these days there are elections in Spain. If Aznar (Partido Popular) keeps saying it was the ETA, this will be a damn good thing for his Partido Popular (which has strong opinions when it comes to the ETA). If however it would be an Al Qaeda attack, this could be fatal to his political party. Why? Because then it is Aznar's fault that this terrorist attack took place (he was the one who wanted to help the Americans in Iraq, although a poll showed that more than 90% of the Spanish people didn't agree with that). If it turns out to be Al Qaeda before the elections (which is unlikely, since they are on Sunday or Monday, I think), Aznar's Partido Popular will most certainly suffer from that (making the socialist win - most probably). If, however, he keeps telling everyone that the ETA is guilty, this will win his party lots and lots and lots and lots and lots and lots of votes. It's propaganda, which is a bad thing. People's lives and sorrow shouldn't be used for political games.

 

[Sander]

No, it's not strange. But it IS manipulation of the people and the news.

 

[megatron]

LOL PERPAHZP SOMEONE TRAIN JUS T BLEW UP !!! LOL DIDNT THINK OF DAT HUH

 

[quietfanatic]

So the election on sunday depends on who planted that bombs in the train. If it was Al Qaeda the actual government is going to lose its majority in the parliament and a new prime minister is going to be chosen. If ETA planted that bombs the government is going to keep tis majority in the parliament. Everything depends on who did that. That's why the spanish government send orders to its ministers and embassors to put the guilt over ETA before any official investigation.

Yes, there has been a huge backlash against Aznar because of the decision to join the coalition and the act of deceiving the public. This resulted in large protests with placards saying "we are not idiots", chanting LIAR, LIAR, LIAR and the like.

His government has lost in a landslide defeat chiefly because of the bombing.

Sucked in. But what a tragedy the bombing is.

The bombers went for poor, working class districts which no government would put as high priority. They will probably try this tactic of going for the defenceless again, if it really is retribution for going to war. Who could be next. Japan, Australia or anyone could be targeted.

Random loosely related story.

Australian fighter pilots refused to complete their bombing runs on up to 40 combat missions in Iraq because they thought that the targets were harmless or civilian. They are not prosecuted under the Australian rules of engagement for not carrying out the orders based on American intelligence or from higher US command.

Were the targets engaged anyway by US forces I wonder? Do the US pilots also refuse to always follow orders? Intelligence is clearly, seriously flawed.

 

[alec]

They will probably try this tactic of going for the defenceless again, if it really is retribution for going to war. Who could be next?

Panic on the streets of London
Panic on the streets of Birmingham
I wonder to myself:
Could life ever be sane again
On the Leeds side-streets that you slip down
I wonder to myself
Hopes may rise on the Grasmeres
But Honey Pie, you're not safe here
So you run down
To the safety of the town
But there's panic on the streets of Carlisle
Dublin, Dundee, Humberside
I wonder to myself...
(The Smiths)

Hear the prophecy within these lines: Great Britain is next. And it will be a lot smaller afterwards...

Now that things are getting more clear and nobody is still in doubt about whom organized and executed this terrorist attack in Madrid, Europe is getting really really scared. And rightly so. Actually, I think we will be shitting our pants in the near future.

 

[Wooz]

Nah.

[Hitchcock suspense music] That's exactly what THEY want you to do. THEY want to exploit your paranoia to enforce civil rights-stripping legislation.THEY want to control every aspect of your life, imposing some sort of arbitrary control over what you read, watch. And above all, what you say and what you... THINK! [/Hitchcock music] [female scream]

War is Peace. Ignorance is Strength. Stupidity and patriotism are your friends.

 

[victor]

Isn't that from 1984? Add it to the movie quotes thread if it is.

 

[Revolver]

What do you think is more responsible for the attacks: the former ruling party's decision to join the coalition in Iraq or the opposition's commitment to pull out of the coalition if elected into power? Of course the second would not be possible if the first didn't happen, but that does not completely absolve it of responsibility. In any case, expect to see more terrorist attacks shortly before elections, no matter what country you live in.

 

[welsh]

If the terrorist strike was ETA than they really screwed the pooch. The backlash against them will probably be extreme. Spain's dirty war with the ETA will probably get much worse.

If it was Al Qaeda, than the attack was a master stroke if tragic. By hitting the trains they are sending some clear signals-
(1) if you align with the US you are a target
(2) we can get you
(3) we are still around
(4) the war against terrorism has failed
(5) is it worth it to you?

I was reading in USA Today on the way home that there was some discussion of a Department of Homeland Security and a Patriot Act type legislation for the EU. Crazy.

 

[Briosafreak]

A Comissioner for Terrorism is possible, and the adaptation of an existing security force inside the EU to terrorism issues seems feasable now too, as some adaptations to the Schengen accord, but for the rest i don`t think so. We`ll see what the interior ministers decide friday.

 

[alec]

If the terrorist strike was ETA than they really screwed the pooch. [...]If it was Al Qaeda, than the attack was a master stroke if tragic.

I thought it was pretty clear by now that the terrorist strike in Madrid was the work of 6 Moroccans - meaning: 6 muslim fundamentalists. I heard in the late news that these guys were probably behind a terrorist strike in Morocco as well. They've only captured one so far, though.

Oh, and I doubt these guys really 'belong' to Al Qaeda. They've most certainly been inspired by Osama's 'freedom fighters', but that's probably all. Just a bunch of fucked-up muslims who were copycatting 9/11 on a smaller scale. I hope they get them all real soon.

Gddmn religious zealots...

 

[welsh]

I thought it was pretty clear by now that the terrorist strike in Madrid was the work of 6 Moroccans - meaning: 6 muslim fundamentalists. I heard in the late news that these guys were probably behind a terrorist strike in Morocco as well. They've only captured one so far, though.

Oh, and I doubt these guys really 'belong' to Al Qaeda. They've most certainly been inspired by Osama's 'freedom fighters', but that's probably all. Just a bunch of fucked-up muslims who were copycatting 9/11 on a smaller scale. I hope they get them all real soon.

Gddmn religious zealots...

That's what I have been hearing too. Moroccans. Makes sense kind of.

The thing about Al Qaeda, from what I have been hearing, is that it's not like some giant organization like the KKK or Baader Meinhof, but perhaps a bit more like the PLO (a collection of fairly independent organizations) or perhaps even more like contemporary Nazis- more a movement than an organization. These folks are sharing a common ideology and cause rather than an organization.

In part that might be part of the campaign against terrorism. One thing they have been trying to do is split up and fracture the organizations into splinters. This would make the organizations weaker but might also have them turn against each other. It might also diminish the power behind their cause, as splintered organizations begin to form their own agendas.

Osama and company would still play a major role by bankrolling terrorists- and as Sept 11 and the Madrid bombings prove- terrorists can make a lot of bang for very little buck.

However, more fractured organizations would mean less centralized control.

A group commits an act like this will probably go into hiding for awhile. You do this and there is no come back. You're wanted and once they know who you are, you're on the run.

THe problem is not these 6. It is:
(1) their ability to inspire others to do similar actions- with or without support from Osama and friends
(2) Political reprecussions this has on other countries.

I have a couple of decent articles on terrorism I use for my class, maybe I will post them here for those of you interested.

 

[Briosafreak]

Both organizations connected to Al-qaeda that work in Spain spawned from the marrocan salaphite groups. Those groups are famous because of the Casablanca bombings. Several wanted or now detained terrorists were connected to the spanish and morocan groups way before this happened. So yes, it was an Al-qaeda attack, for all purposes, with traditional methods carried out by cells that devise and carry the attacks in an autonomous way, like Bali, Yemen, Iraq and Morocco in the past.

If you want to know more on their methods, organization and names look for the judge Baltazar Garzón files on terror on the net, he`s the man that indited Pinochet and put the leaders of ETA in prison, he had the info on them and arrested quite a few, but not enough, it seems.