CT Phipps
Carbon Dated and Proud
You missed a golden opportunity to use Shadowrun-esque slurs like orc-face.
But yes, generally Shadowrun is an IP which has survived decades and that's a sign it should be a game.
Carbon Dated and Proud
You missed a golden opportunity to use Shadowrun-esque slurs like orc-face.
But yes, generally Shadowrun is an IP which has survived decades and that's a sign it should be a game.
It survived decades because of the tabletop fan-cult. Just like Dungeons and Dragons survived for decades too before Wizards of the Coast bought it.
Great way of proving my point while totally missing the point of my post.
"It is generally considered the closest videogame adaptation of the Pen and Paper Shadowrun RPG to date."
...
E-EDGY as fuck, Rise.
But we do have seen an influx of not action-RPGs since 2013, especially with brief Shadowrun presence within such format. More than 20, IIRC.
First you prove my point by posting a picture of the Sega Genesis Shadowrun game.
You know why it was considered the closest P&P Shadowrun game to date? Because it was closer to being a proper RPG:
"RPG fans can rejoice, because Shadowrun for the Genesis plays more like a traditional RPG than its SNES counterpart. There are two sides to that coin though, because the game also requires tedious character building and extensive game saving."
Before that game there was only the Super NES Shadowrun game. Also that quote you use there is outdated, after the Shadowrun Returns trilogy, none of the previous Shadowrun games has a better and more faithful system to the P&P one.
So by using a quote that says that game was the closest adaptation to the Shadowrun RPG, you are showing that RPGs based on P&P are more notorious if they follow the system more faithfully.
Now, why did you miss the point of my post. The point of my post is not that there isn't cRPGs being made, it is that they aren't made enough when compared to Action RPGs (which are flooding the markets since more than a decade) and that action RPGs based on P&P systems usually suck compared to the source material. You say to look at how many cRPGs have been released in the last 4 years. Well let's see how many:
- Baldur's Gate II Enhanced Edition (Which shouldn't count since it is not a new game, but for the sake of completion I put it here).
- Avadon 2: The Corruption
- Desktop Dungeons
- Shadowrun Returns
- Sword of the Stars: The Pit
- Torment: Tides of Numenera
- Avernum 2: Crystal Souls
- Dead State
- Divinity: Original Sin
- Icewind Dale: Enhanced Edition (Another that shouldn't count)
- Lords of Xulima
- Might & Magic X: Legacy
- NEO Scavenger
- Pillars of Eternity
- Shadowrun: Hong Kong
- South Park: The Stick of Truth
- The Age of Decadence
- Underrail
- Undertale
- Unrest
- Wasteland 2
- 7 Mages
- Darkest Dungeon
- Tyranny
- Grimoire : Heralds of the Winged Exemplar
- South Park: The Fractured But Whole
- Charlie Murder
- Cube World
- The Dark Eye: Demonicon
- Dead Island: Riptide
- Deus Ex: The Fall
- Driftmoon
- Dungeonland
- Forced
- How to Survive
- The Incredible Adventures of Van Helsing
- Legend of Dungeon
- The Legend of Sword and Fairy 5 Prequel
- Lightning Returns: Final Fantasy XIII
- Mars: War Logs
- Reaper: Tale of a Pale Swordsman
- Bound by Flame
- Crawl
- Cross of the Dutchman
- Dark Souls II
- Deathtrap
- Dragon Age: Inquisition
- Dragon Fin Soup
- Dragon Quest Heroes: The World Tree's Woe and the Blight Below
- Dungeon of the Endless
- Fallout 4
- Final Fantasy Type-0 HD
- Hand of Fate
- Hyper Light Drifter
- Hyperdimension Neptunia U: Action Unleashed
- Heretic Kingdoms: The Inquisition (This one shouldn't count since it is a game from 2004/5 but it was only published in the USA in 2014)
- Legend of Grimrock II
- LEGO® The Hobbit™
- Lords of the Fallen
- Middle-earth: Shadow of Mordor
- Overlord: Fellowship of Evil
- Overture
- Rogue Stormers
- Risen 3: Titan Lords
- Sacred 3
- Satellite Reign
- Second Chance Heroes
- Shadows: Heretic Kingdoms
- StarForge
- Sword Coast Legends
- The Witcher 3: Wild Hunt
- Transistor
- Trine 3: The Artifacts of Power
- Victor Vran
- Aurion: Legacy of the Kori-Odan
- DARK SOULS III
- DarkMaus
- Deus Ex: Mankind Divided
- Grind Zones
- NECROPOLIS
- Okhlos
- Salt and Sanctuary
- Stories: The Path of Destinies
- The Technomancer
- .hack//G.U. Last Recode
- Absolver
- Mass Effect: Andromeda
- NieR:Automata
- Pyre
- Shiness: The Lightning Kingdom
- Stellar Overload
- The Surge
- Vikings - Wolves of Midgard
Also not to mention that I excluded from that list console exclusives, multiplayer, free to play and MMOG's. If I hadn't exclude those things the Action RPG list would have almost tripled. While if I had included all of those parameters in the cRPG category, the number would be pretty much the same... Even if I had put jRPGs and Tactical RPGs in the cRPG category, the Action RPGs are way too many still.
Another interesting thing is that most of the action RPGs are 3 or less stars rated on Steam, while cRPGs are 3 or more stars rated on Steam. There is a bigger ratio of cRPGs getting 4 and 5 stars than Action RPGs.
Here is an example of what I mean about P&P games being made Action and breaking the lore big time: which D&D games are better, the Action RPGs or the cRPGs? The cRPG D&D wipe the floor with any of the action RPG ones. Go and play Baldur's Gate Dark Alliance 1 and 2 and then Play Baldur's Gate 1 and 2 and tell me which series is better and follow the lore of the D&D Forgotten Realms more closely?
Another example: Let's remove the quests and writing (to make it more fair) of all the following games and tell me which ones are better, Fallout 1 and 2 cRPGs (based on GURPS P&P) against the Action RPGs Fallout Brotherhood of Steel and Fallout 4?
Because that is another thing Action RPGs based on P&P tend to do, they destroy the lore way more. Which is a low blow to established fans of those series.
The question here is, do we really need (this much) more Action RPGs? If your answer is yes (mine is "not really") then here is another question, Do companies really need to grab P&P games to make those new Action RPGs? That answer is definitely a "no".
Another question, are companies missing a chance of making good cRPGs using existing P&P systems that already have long timed established communities by making Action RPGs? The answer is "yes".
Do companies make Action RPGs from P&P systems just to lure the cult fans of the P&P game? The answer is "probably".
CT Phipps
Carbon Dated and Proud
Putting down Dungeons and dragons is kind of an odd thing since almost every single level based video game is basically Dungeons and Dragons with the serial numbers filed off.
World of Warcraft IS Dungeons and Dragons.
It's just an unlicensed IP.
World of Warcraft IS Dungeons and Dragons.
It's just an unlicensed IP.
This is one of the strangest things you have said in this forum.... Warcraft was based on Warhammer, a totally different tabletop game. Also, saying that would mean that any fantasy game was actually Tolkien without the extensive descriptions...
You seem to not understand genres, systems or IPs and their differences.
For example, even Dungeons and Dragons now (5th edition) are not Dungeons and Dragons compared to the old Advanced D&D. They are both P&P systems, they are the same IP, they use the same universe and many names, but are totally different P&P systems (making them different games).
I really hope you made that post just for trolling because I don't think anyone that plays RPGs (in any genre) would agree or even know how you reached that conclusion...
CT Phipps
Carbon Dated and Proud
World of Warcraft, not Warcraft
World of Warcraft has hit points, levels, gathering magic items, looting dead bodies, and more. You know, Dungeons and Dragons.
It is the same game.
Warcraft was an RTF strategy game.
World of Warcraft has hit points, levels, gathering magic items, looting dead bodies, and more. You know, Dungeons and Dragons.
It is the same game.
Warcraft was an RTF strategy game.
World of Warcraft is an MMO action-RPG. Dungeons and Dragons is a P&P RPG. Different categories.
Dungeons and Dragons is turn based, you can have D&D Universes without any magic items or even magic in it, it is roleplaying dependent, spells are limited by using per day (WoW is cooldown and you can use the same spell over and over), spells are prepared for the day from a pool of spells available in D&D, D&D you gain skill points depending on your primarily attributes when you level up, that doesn't happen in WoW. In Dungeons and Dragons armor works by preventing a character of getting hit, in WoW armor makes it so the character can get hit more. On D&D the loot character get from defeating an enemy, it is the same items that enemy have in their inventory and use, in WoW loot is random and enemies do not use items or have an inventory. And so on.
Again, you are confusing and generalizing genres. For you anything with stats, level up, inventory and loot, etc is Dungeons and Dragons. It is the same as saying all leafy vegetables are cabbages, that all cars run on diesel, all sci-fi with spaceships is Star Wars, that all humans are the same size and have the same body type because we all have arms and legs, and so on.
0wing
Все умрут, а я волномут
And you just missed the point in your D&D(
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Shadowrun 1994 is not a perfect recreation within the limitation of the genre, it was possible to make a system way more faithful by then. Plenty of other Genesis games already has stuff that P&P Shadowrun had. You could recreate the P&P system quite well. But they didn't, so it is not a perfect recreation.And you just missed the point in your D&D()-TB-something-something-related rant. Shadowrun 1994 is a perfect recreation within the limitation of the genre, which is an opinion of not only many people but by Shadowrun PnP holders themselves. Shadowrun Returns onwards - also a recreation, but more of a recreation of tabletop campaign without the fun of interaction between other players. If anything, if we roll back to 1994 and add multiplayer, it'll be even more balanced between tr00e and fun. And you dropped the ball when comparing the quantity of rpgs. You didn't mention that most of ARPG in the list is banal shovelware and games made by clearly underqualified personnel, because it's so easy to make a good action-RPG with working rules, right? Aside from vague "h-hey there are 3< out 5 star titles, ha-ha". But in cRPG category, there are actual works of art, even if some titles are questionable.
Again I point out the D&D games. Go play Baldur's Gate Dark Alliance games and tell me they are great because they have some things from D&D (like classes and items). It actually makes the games worst because they used the Forgotten Realms D&D universe.
Also the Shadowrun games on the old consoles sucked compared to any computer Action RPG. The SNES was very linear and slow paced with awful controls, the Genesis was more open and you had more freedom to do stuff but it was still quite slow, empty and awful controls too. They are iconic (in a way) because they are not medieval fantasy and they actually have story, but they don't old a candle to other Action RPGs from the same time. Diablo came out just 2 years after Shadowrun for Genesis was released and look at the difference, so did Star Ocean. We can even look at previous Action RPGs that even today are seen as better than the console Shadowrun games, like Zelda 2 or Secret of Mana. There is a reason that Shadowrun games on old consoles do not rank very well in the "best *insert console name here* games" listings.
Also let's be honest here, do you think that any company these days would make a Action RPG following the style of those old console ones? No Action RPG have been made for modern consoles/computers that follow that formula in 20 or more years. Not even indie companies make them.
We also have to take into account the Microsoft approach to Shadowrun, It's 2007 Shadowrun game sucks. Do I think they will allow a good game to come out of the IP if someone else's makes it? Maybe, but I doubt it. Have Microsoft ever made or published a good Action RPG before?
Harebrained Schemes managed to make three good Shadowrun Returns games because they are faithful to the P&P game and because Harebrained Schemes is the company of one of the original creators of Shadowrun.
0wing
Все умрут, а я волномут
Statement. Actual statement by people who made Shadowrun P&P. Statement from the 1990s. I do know your opinion already, wombat king.
They didn't They didn't have open world, they didn't have actual ruleset, they didn't have side quests, they play differently. Other console ARPGs just need not apply.
Baldur's Gate: Dark Alliance is a fun co-op action game, but what does it have anything to do with the discussion? As you know, it doesn't follow D&D ruleset, it's extremely linear, it's the opposite of Shadowrun 1994 basically. So slot-off with inane comparisons, wombat king.
Sounds like someone didn't play it past "get brother's garbage" quest. Controls is responsive, it just follows PnP rules. Of course if your quickness is not good enough, enemies will chase you and kill, what do you expect? Of course you keep missing, your gun skill is not good enough. If you can't start small and prioritize your skill levelups than how are you better than Skyrim fans?
With such inane comparisons you just sound like Oblivion and Skyrim praisers. I can't believe you liked Morrowind or Daggerfall with the same approach you go play Shadowrun '94. Or it's because it's a console game? Wow, what a racist. Shadowrun '94 definitely released on the wrong system, reading comprehension is not Genesis' fans' strong suit. Do you like Sonic by any chance? And shitting on SNES while praising SR:R-onwards? Are we on the same page, Rise? Their structure is basically the same, only the former actually had a city to freeroam in unlike linear like a stick Returns.
Not really. It recreates two aspects, campaign storytelling and some statchecks here and there. Combat is X-Com modern, The Matrix is mirror of Combat. Both of these are not really exciting as other Turn-Based RPGs of the recent years. I don't blame Harebrained Schemes, they did their best with available money and management. It's just that games are different mediums than PnPs and SR '94 does more in it's format than SR:R. SR:R doesn't have much worldbuilding, side content, actual maps to explore. It's just railroaded story.
If Troika did with VtM:B, I still believe it's possible.
Fable was alright.
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Fable?
Show me the source for that statement. The one where people who made the Shadowrun P&P say that.
Also let's not forget that people say a lot of things that are not true if it helps sell the game. I don't think anyone would say "Yeah, this game came out and it's about our product, but it sucks. Don't buy it". It just works!
Oh yes they did. You want a genesis RPG with more side side quests than you can finish and is open world? Uncharted Waters for Genesis and it was released in 1991. Three whole years before Shadowrun for Genesis was released. Uncharted Waters 2 was released the same year as Shadowrun for Genesis. Do you want another Action RPG for Genesis that was faster and with better controls? Gauntlet IV, released one year before Shadowrun. Pirates Gold also hit many boxes (open world, quests, real time ship combat, etc) and was released one year before. Landstalker was released two years before and it is considered one of the best Action RPGs for Genesis. Beyond Oasis was released the same year and it is again superior in the Action RPG genre (has better graphics, also open world, better user interface, has magic attacks, actual puzzles, etc), the combat on this one is weak but so it is in Shadowrun. Arcus Odyssey released three years before Shadowrun is also a great Action RPG (you can pick from 4 characters, has special attacks, has multiplayer, etc). While I can go all day. I will end here and just say one more game, and this game is so well ingrained with a P&P system that shows Shadowrun how it's done:
Buck Rogers: Countdown to Doomsday released a whooping four years before Shadowrun and it is a very good and faithful to P&P systems (based on AD&D). This is what Shadowrun should have been as a RPG. The graphics are not that good and neither is the music, but if it was released at the same time as Shadowrun, I am sure both those things would have been vastly improved (not to mention that the graphics and sound of Shadowrun wasn't the best either). I will say this again, a game that came out four years before Shadowrun, for the same console and is vastly superior in the P&P system implementation, just shows that it was possible to make a pretty faithful Shadowrun P&P system on Genesis.
And you are arguing for the sake of arguing, you keep missing my point over and over. Baldur's Gate Dark Alliance is one of the most blatant proof that grabbing a P&P system and making an Action RPG out of it will sacrifice a lot of things. By definition the real time combat of a Action RPG will already mess things up in terms of System. Concessions will be made. You want another example? Fallout Brotherhood of Steel.
Ahahahah. "Controls are irresponsible because it only follows the PnP rules". No, they are clunky and the game is quite slow paced. I didn't say anything about missing or running away while enemies chase you. I said, controls are awful and they are. Also you only questioned one of three negative points I mentioned there.
Also what does comparing me with Skyrim fans have to do with any of this discussion? Again I didn't criticized the P&P rules implementation, I said that the game lost a lot in adopting a Action RPG style instead of following the source material genre. Yes, we have a Action RPG game, yes it works on some levels, but it is outclassed by many other Action RPGs from the same console and even made earlier than this one. If it had been made like a cRPG instead, I am sure it would be vastly acclaimed than it is.
Here you are throwing Skyrim and now Oblivion players to the mix of a totally unrelated matter. Not only you go to the point of calling me racist in an unfounded way just because you once again keep missing the point of most of my posts. For your information I only got a computer in the very late 1990's, before that I was a console kid, I owned a NES, a Gameboy and a Sega Mega Drive (I really wanted a SNES, but they weren't easily available in my country back then) for many years before I got a computer. I love playing those console games so much that I always have emulators on my computers and even bought a PC controller just to play those games. My childhood was spent playing consoles and I have a soft spot for those games.
Oh great, now you're the one being "racist", saying that Genesis fans lack reading comprehension... You call me one thing based on nothing and then you go and become that same thing you called me in the next same sentence? Man, talk about lack of self awareness.
Also what does Sonic has to do with any of this discussion? Are you trying to derail our argument by throwing unrelated game names to the mix?Where did I shit on SNES? I said that the Genesis game is less linear than the SNES game... Are you gonna tell me that is false?
Also considering Shadowrun for SNES structure the same as Shadowrun: Return games
. A free roam city that was mostly empty, pretty much only had enemies unless you went inside buildings, buildings that had one NPC that you could talk to... Shadowrun: Returns also has a pretty empty free roam city, has plenty of NPCs but you can only talk to important ones, can only enter important buildings... Between both, I can say that they both fail in the exploration and talking to NPCs compared to the P&P game. But in terms of system, Shadowrun: Returns wipe the floor with SNES Shadowrun.Mate, just because it is "not really exciting as other turn-based RPGs of the recent years" (which I don't agree, but that is my opinion) doesn't mean it is not following the P&P system, it is following it. The system is just simple compared to other complex P&P systems out there (for example D&D, GURPS or even Cyberpunk). That is not a fault of the game, it is actually a strength because it follows the simplified P&P system.
SNES Shadowrun is very linear too, they both fail compared to the P&P game. Combat is not X-Com modern, X-Com uses a different type of rolls and modifiers to hit and damage, saying that, is the same as saying that D&D uses the same combat as classic Fallout or Wasteland 2 (just because they have turns and chance to hit doesn't mean it is the same combat)...
You can't make your own character or even choose a race in the SNES one, that game as a whooping six spells, it has a whooping four outfits (armors), five cyber implants (one for each body part) so you have no choice of what implant to get, you can only have these ones, your character only has four attributes... In the 2nd edition Shadowrun P&P rules (which the SNES is based on) has nine, you don't have the iconic Priority Levels that are used when you make a character in the SNES, it doesn't have the iconic lifestyle that each character has in the P&P, it doesn't have the iconic Resources feature, the P&P has 18 skills (and I am not counting the 8 vehicle skills or the 8 knowledge skills) while the SNES has a total of four skills, it fails to even have skills that would fit perfectly (and even improve the game) in a Action RPG (like Armed Combat, Demolitions [the game even has explosives], Gunnery, Projectile Weapons, Throwing Weapons and Unarmed Combat), the SNES game doesn't have the iconic Actions system (Free, Simple, Complex) in combat, it doesn't have the Multiple Actions in combat feature either, it doesn't have the Initiative feature, you don't have the walk or run feature, you always run, you don't have the movement in combat limit feature because it doesn't have turns, it doesn't have the Interception (attacks of opportunity as it is known in other games) feature, it doesn't have the Surprise feature, the game doesn't have the Situational Target Modifiers feature, I think it doesn't have penalties for distance either (but I am not sure on this one, but I think you have to be in a certain distance to be able to shoot the enemy IIRC), it doesn't have the Fire Modes on weapons, it doesn't have the Scatter feature, your party members couldn't do anything besides fight, it didn't have the iconic Condition Levels based on damage, oops this is getting huge... There are plenty more other things that the SNES (and even the Genesis) game doesn't have that are very important for the P&P system, I mostly focused on combat oriented things when I wrote this because it is an Action RPG.
Shadowrun Returns follows the 3rd edition more closely than Shadowrun SNES and Genesis follow the 2nd edition.
I asked for recent Action RPGs and you talk about a game that is almost 14 years old made by a company that made oldschool style games and was a fan of turn based, story rich cRPGs... Yes, Vampires the Masquerade Bloodlines is a cult game and good for fans of RPGs, but it was also a failed game when released, it flopped. Are you seeing Microsoft making/releasing games that follow a flopped record or are you seeing them making/releasing games that follow the market trends?
Also I am sure if Troika Games had made a cRPG instead of a Action RPG, the game would have been even better. They were masters of cRPGs after all.
Another game that is older than 10 years. Also do you see the gameplay and system of Fable working for Shadowrun?Fable was alright.
Also worth mention that Fable games have been losing quality over time, look at the most recent game(s) and compare them with the previous...
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0wing
Все умрут, а я волномут
Fable 2 as game was better. Story is inane, I agree.
OP post doesn't say Microsoft, OP post said group of modders pitched an RPG. They seem genuine in their intentions. If the game turns out shit, welp it happens. But so far you're getting too far with conclusions.
It's all related since your complaints sounds like the same as these guys have on previous TES games. And it's a known fact that Genesis' fanboys aren't very fond of SR '94 due to being kids spoiled by Sega of America only allowing flashy action games and runners like Sonic and disallowing RPGs on North America market. Shadowrun didn't find it's way to europe either, so no good fame aside from rare journos doing their job with shilling reviews.
Wait, I'm talking to a person who doesn't distinct action-adventures from action rpgs...
BUT THEY DON'T HAVE D&D RULESET IN THEM, THEY HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH THIS TOPIC WT... Err, I know where you're leading. Good day, sir.
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