Moral Conundrum: Decapitate the Legion or not?

[ThatZenoGuy]

The best thing you could do, is change the leaders of the Legion to be less...Cheeky.

Second best is to kill them off, and watch the group die off or assimilate into the NCR.

Worst is to let them continue, let countless innocents slowly get wittled away.

 

[naossano]

You would need to seek for leaders elsewhere. Caesar inner circle is made of people who believe in the legion, in one way or another. If he bites the dust, (and Lanius as well) those are the most likely to take the lead.

 

[CT Phipps]

You would need to seek for leaders elsewhere. Caesar inner circle is made of people who believe in the legion, in one way or another. If he bites the dust, (and Lanius as well) those are the most likely to take the lead.

There's Lucius and Vulpes really, I suppose. Also, whoever is running the show back in Colorado.

If this were Star Wars, you could probably recruit Graham to come back and deprogram the entire nation but Fallout: New Vegas is nuanced enough that we all know that would be a complete disaster.

The violence would get to him again.

Of course, an interesting but unprogrammable ending would be, "You win the Battle of Hoover Dam then kill Lanius and take over."

 

[Jogre]

Of course, an interesting but unprogrammable ending would be, "You win the Battle of Hoover Dam then kill Lanius and take over."

That would be stupid as shit tho.

The reason Lanius is the next Caesar is because he is a well-trusted legate and second in command.

You are essentially just a messenger on behalf of the Legion, contacting tribes to get them to ally with Caesar before the battle of hoover dam.

There is no logical reason for you to take over after Lanius dies.

 

[CT Phipps]

That would be stupid as shit tho.

The reason Lanius is the next Caesar is because he is a well-trusted legate and second in command.

You are essentially just a messenger on behalf of the Legion, contacting tribes to get them to ally with Caesar before the battle of hoover dam.

There is no logical reason for you to be next in line after Lanius dies.

That's ridiculous. In an organization built on strength and the APPEARANCE of strength, the moment you actually started personally winning battles would begin the moment that rank would cease to matter. It's not an organization like the NCR but a place built on tribal law and perception of power.

Coups have happened under much worse circumstances.

Messangers don't have HUNDREDS OF KILLS to their name and the moment that happened, people would start questioning why you wouldn't be in charge because the Legion is held together solely by perception of being the best warrior.

 

[Jogre]

That's ridiculous. In an organization built on strength and the APPEARANCE of strength, the moment you actually started personally winning battles would begin the moment that rank would cease to matter. It's not an organization like the NCR but a place built on tribal law and perception of power.

Lanius appears strong, but also has the title of legate. He leads troops in to battle. Having huge amounts of troops obey his every word gives him power, and you can very easily imagine him using that to get the title of Caesar.

Some random dude can't just win one battle for the legion, then turn on the boss, and expect everything to be ok.

Hell, I'd say its far more likely that Lucius takes over after Lanius. I mean, he commands the personal bodyguards of Caesar and is a well-trusted advisor.

Coups have happened under much worse circumstances.

Coups usually involve generals turning there troops on the government. People with military power using that to take over.

You are literally just one courier, who the Legion consider an outsider. If you just turned around and stabbed Lanius in the throat, the Legionaries wouldn't just figure "Shit, I guess he's in control now", they'd probably deem you a traitor.

 

[CerberusGate]

The issue of using modern standards to judge the Legion is complicated by the fact the Legion is a monster by the standard of primitive tribals because it was created by a modern man using his idea of a neo-primitive society created with a bunch of history textbooks.

On the other hand, the lands owned by that 'monster' are safer, better regulated and have a stabler economy.

Sure, the Legion is morally bankrupt (especially with the standards of the NCR in mind) but having some form of brutal rule over an untamed region is a lot better than the chaotic anarchy the region was in (to the point where a accidental mis-translation could result in being put to death by savage tribals i.e the incident that led to the creation of the Legion). It's a lot more creative and varied to use ancient civilization as the basis of a society plus with how primitive society in Legion lands are, the society of ancient civilization would appeal to them more than the modern societies and standards of the NCR.

You are literally just one courier, who the Legion consider an outsider.

I get that vibe too since even in the endings, all the Courier gets is a special coin, minted to commemorate their service to the Legion, rather than any titles or positions in the Legion (though at least the coin was distributed as part of Legion currency). So, the Courier gaining control over the Legion is highly unlikely (or rather next to impossible).

 

[CT Phipps]

Albeit, the face of Caesar on the coins of the Empire was meant to show the soldiers who their loyalty was to be to.

 

[Risewild]

Albeit, the face of Caesar on the coins of the Empire was meant to show the soldiers who their loyalty was to be to.

The coins honor great feats/people, not who the soldiers should worship.
For example, the denarius depicts Caesar, Joshua Graham and Bill Calhoun on it. Are you telling me that the Legion should worship Bill Calhoun or even Joshua Graham? Who Caesar blamed for the defeat on Boulder City and tried to kill by coat him in pitch, set him on fire and throw him into the Grand Canyon by the Praetorian Guard?

The legion soldiers are fanatics, they would not follow a simple soldier that joined the legion ranks just a couple of weeks/months ago.
That's pretty much the same as saying that if a rookie soldier killed Genghis Khan they would become the next Khan, if a rookie soldier killed the roman emperor they would become the next emperor or if a rookie soldier killed a former king in any kingdom they would become the next king.
It doesn't matter what the Courier did while at the service of the Legion, it still doesn't compare to what Legates did during their entire service to the Legion for example.

If Caesar survives, he never bestows any title upon the Courier, that is how much the Legion supports him. Everyone else that distinguished themselves in the Legion gets promoted, but the Courier just gets a picture on a coin.
For the Legion soldiers the Courier is just some person that followed Caesar's orders and got the job done, just like any other at the service of Caesar.
Not to mention if the Courier is a woman, there is no way a female courier would become the Legion leader ever.

 

[rockitten]

If Caesar survives, he never bestows any title upon the Courier, that is how much the Legion supports him. Everyone else that distinguished themselves in the Legion gets promoted, but the Courier just gets a picture on a coin.
For the Legion soldiers the Courier is just some person that followed Caesar's orders and got the job done, just like any other at the service of Caesar.
Not to mention if the Courier is a woman, there is no way a female courier would become the Legion leader ever.

If courier is a woman, the most likely "title" Caesar will give her is "the personal bitch of Caesar".........

TBH, in Fallout world, there shouldn't be so many women working/wandering outside, not only because they are easier prey, but also because it is a measure to prevent impregnated women exposed too much radiation.

And that's probably the biggest flaw of Legion's treatment of women: they are more likely to have defected babies by feeding wrong food or wrong place to their "breeding whores".

 

[Risewild]

And that's probably the biggest flaw of Legion's treatment of women: they are more likely to have defected babies by feeding wrong food or wrong place to their "breeding whores".

That is why Caesar doesn't allow women to fight and separates them into supportive roles.
Since they have a high infant mortality due to low level medical care Caesar keeps women away from dangerous roles so they can keep breeding over and over.
If women died fighting while children die a lot, the Legion numbers would start to dwindle very fast and would collapse all by itself.

 

[NMLevesque]

However, there's the simple fact Lanius seems to be a more honorable figure than Caesar himself and has some understanding of Barter/Logistics. Putting him in charge of the Legion and sparing him might result in a more barbarian society out East but not necessarily a worse one. Certainly, he'll have less interest in obliterating local identities and societies.

Oddly this makes me think of Cesare Borgia. Really only b/c I kept watching that Borgia series with the same guy who voices Caesar, but hey--Machiavella wrote about him in The Prince for a reason.

Also it's not done to citiziens, it's on their enemies and "inmates". Don't remember how the chaste system works, if any.
Oppression of women? Uh, no comment...humans aren't programmed to be equal to women, simply becouse how reproduction works in the first place.

They want you to think "Oh no, they'll enlist my children as slave cannon fodder! And my wife and daughter as human livestock!" while they have happy (or serving, who cares) farmer couples back on the east. They wouldn't just rape every female that goes off to the street in THEIR territory, and neither in foreign either.[/SPOILER]

A) Last time I checked people don't usually recognize slaves as citizens. Regardless I don't see how that makes it any better. B) Humans aren't "programmed". Is the historical oppression of women supposed to excuse oppression? C) You seem to want us to think you can determine specific aspects about how a culture we have been told enslaves half it's population, to be used as brood sows, including their female children, and basically raped until they die or can't reproduce anymore. Considering that, the frequency of decimation practices, among other things--they are demonstrably worse than Ancient Rome. So why would they act better than Ancient Rome outside of military operations?

I think killing all the leadership you can could have a better effect than expected. We're told at one point that there is a line of successors I think. Either way, at worst you're just rolling the dice. Who knows what would happen from the power struggle. Choose the unknown rather than the terrible reality. Maybe there would be a revolution. If one profligate can murder Caesar, his top Frumentarii, Praetorian guards, various camps and hit squads basically single handedly--then win an entire war between gigantic countries ending with personally killing their greatest warrior and at that time current leader...I think it would send a pretty strong message that Legion propaganda is bullshit.

 

[CT Phipps]

I think killing all the leadership you can could have a better effect than expected. We're told at one point that there is a line of successors I think. Either way, at worst you're just rolling the dice. Who knows what would happen from the power struggle. Choose the unknown rather than the terrible reality. Maybe there would be a revolution. If one profligate can murder Caesar, his top Frumentarii, Praetorian guards, various camps and hit squads basically single handedly--then win an entire war between gigantic countries ending with personally killing their greatest warrior and at that time current leader...I think it would send a pretty strong message that Legion propaganda is bullshit.

To be fair, I'm still not sure how the otherwise quite realistic (NCR vs. Brotherhood) Obsidian is supposed to make us believe Caesar's Legion could stand up to a modernized military with an industrial base.

 

[Knight In Leather Armor]

While I understand that the Legion is mostly falling under the will of Caeser because most of them have no other choice, the NCR savage in me wants to scream "DEATH TO THE LEGION!!"

 

[DarkCorp]

The Lone Wanderer is outside of the legion proper. The reason why the LW wouldn't become the next leader is because there are ALREADY people who want that position and have the men to back up their rule.

In all forms of government, there is also a pecking order, just like continuity of government. President eats it, you go to the VP. He bites it then you move on to the speaker of the house. If he bites it too, the president pro tempore, etc, etc.

While I wish the Legion was more fleshed out as well, it is just slightly better than total anarchy. The best way to rule people, the most efficient way, has always been through bread and circuses. This way is the total opposite of what Caesar wants.

 

[Prone Squanderer]

The Lone Wanderer is outside of the legion proper.

They're too busy running errands for Three Dog.

 

[DarkCorp]

Er sorry hehe, I mean The Courier lol.

 

[CaptJ]

Even so, I always felt Caesar should have been essential unless you did the Doctor assassination. It would mean you had to be very very clever to kill him.

That would make him a tumor is more ways than one.

The issue of using modern standards to judge the Legion is complicated by the fact the Legion is a monster by the standard of primitive tribals because it was created by a modern man using his idea of a neo-primitive society created with a bunch of history textbooks.

What Caesar's Legion did to the Twin Mothers is unforgivable. The Twin Mothers could have thought people how to live off the land instead of relying pre-war tech. (I prefer that Josh Sawyer doesn't retcon homemade stimpaks and instead have Arcade Gannon search for a cheaper alternative like the Bitter Drink.) The Legion isn't above poisoning the land with radioactive waste or simply nuking the land. They are terrible even in Fallout standards.

The differing views and opinions of the main leaders seen in-game (Lanius, Vulpes, Lucius etc.) may erupt into a civil war and may tear the Legion apart.

This is also how I see it but they would be significantly weaker.

 

[Jogre]

To be fair, I'm still not sure how the otherwise quite realistic (NCR vs. Brotherhood) Obsidian is supposed to make us believe Caesar's Legion could stand up to a modernized military with an industrial base.

Legion has 87 tribes all militarised. Due to the tribal background of most of there military, they are probably far better at surviving in the wasteland than NCR soldiers(Who by contrast are likely sheltered from the outside world). They also have intense training which starts at childhood and a fanatic devotion to Caesar(as well as being terrified of failing him), and at least one Frumentarii has infiltrated NCR ranks.

Also, don't forget that the NCR are fighting multiple battles. Fiends, Freesiders, Powder Gangers, Khans and the Brotherhood all despise the NCR and would want to see them out of the Mojave forever, all the while Legion is sitting comfortably on the other side of the Colorado River.

 

[DarkCorp]

The fact that the NCR is powerful enough to take on so many enemies at once, shows their strength. The NCR also did not just defeat tribals, like the Legion, but were able to effectively fight the BoS. Replace the NCR with the Legion and I see Caesar getting PWNED by the Brotherhood. If the NCR ever took a break or finished off a few side problems in the Mojave, I can easily see them routing the Legion.

Simply put, the Legion stands a chance only because the NCR is so over stretched. The Legion, on the other hand, can only do so much with human wave tactics.