More VB Docs

[Tannhauser]

I'm not familiar with the Scientific People, but that could be the case. The very rough concept for what would become the Ciphers basically said they're a group of tattooed tribals with an odd way of speaking who also had access to Old World knowledge, so I took that sketch and ran with it.

Right-o. The Scientific People are a tribe in the book My Stars my Destination by Alfred Bester. They live on an artificial asteroid, made up of various junked space ships that have been crudely patched together by the Scientific People. The tribe is decended from a group of research scientists, and scientific jargon/methods have attained a religious status (they don't know what they are doing, but they go through the motions). They also tattoo their faces in intricate patterns, with their names emblazened on their foreheads.

Their ritual chant is "Quant. Suff." short for (though they don't realize it) "Quantum sufficit" (as much as suffices). Another example of their speech pattern would be "You are the first to arrive alive in fifty years. You are a puissant man. Arrival of the fittest is the doctrine of Holy Darwin. Most scientific."

A description from the book is:

They were savages, the only savages of the twenty-fourth century: descendants of a research team of scientists that had been lost and marooned in the asteroid belt two centuries before when their ship had failed. By the time their descendants were rediscovered they had built up a world and a culture of their own, and preferred to remain in space, salvaging and spoiling, and practicing a barbaric travesty of the scientific method they remembered from their forbears. They called themselves The Scientific People. The world promptly forgot them.

An image, from a cover obviously:

So, hopefully you can see why I draw a connection, though not a strong one.

 

[Tempistfury]

Shit, I'd donate money to a group who wanted to put all these snippets together in a Fallout mod, assuming such a group existed. Bourgeoisie, perhaps, as an after POTW project?

Judging from the way Bourgeoisie seems to be going, I would trust their team to make a pretty good version of a FO3, if they stuck to the basic premises in the design documents. From everything I've seen in the design documents, it looks like it was going to be an awesome game, and as I said earlier, I wish it woulda come out in place of "BoS" or "PoS" whatever you perfer to call it...

 

[Bet]

...I wish it woulda come out in place of "BoS" or "PoS" whatever you perfer to call it...

Hahah, I think Interplay is with you on that one. Isn't BoS widely regarded as the title that sunk the company? What's awesome is that the Brotherhood of Steel was my favorite part of the Fallout universe, even the bizarro version in Tactics, and I STILL have no idea what BoS looks like in motion. Never saw it played, never had the heart to, considering the reception it got. I'm glad the fanbase has saved my heart from being broken. Choosing BoS over Fallout 3...wow, Herve. Wow. All the hatred on these forums isn't enough for you, man. All the hatred on the internet isn't. Especially after getting a look at another 3 chunks of the design part of the newest sequel. Tribals and all.

I agree with Kharn, though, I think Fallout 1 is still my favorite because of the complete lack of tribals. Maybe it's the engineer part of my brain, but the idea of going back to tribes after we design LASER WEAPONS seems abhorrent. Forgetting knowledge is one thing, regressing to that point...ahh, but this argument has been done to death. And it's a moot point anyway

 

[intoxicate]

Shit, I'd donate money to a group who wanted to put all these snippets together in a Fallout mod, assuming such a group existed. Bourgeoisie, perhaps, as an after POTW project?

After analysing these docs I'll tell you one thing: very similar locations are already designed in our world and there's getting more of them.
Most likely we'll show you the location project for the demo in docs before releasing it.
By the way, I'll tell you that MANY things have changed in our project in the last 2 months (for better), i.e. we'll be using advanced physics novodex ( if you want see this : http://www.physicstools.org/NovodeXRocket_2_0_ALPHA.exe ), thanks to which, you'll be able to throw objects... what can I say.. the physics is better than in Half-Life 2.. . The works on demo are going very well, but the location for the demo is huge (Pre-war military base with nuclear shelters), thats why it will take some time to finish it.
We post less on our site because "A Team" is entirely concentrated on the demo... but probably we'll write some kind of a news, what's currently going on.


On topic:
Will there be any other docs, Odin?

 

[monsharen]

"Note: Make sure to refer to the quest design section in the F3_Style.doc."

huh? that document seems important...

 

[Brother None]

I agree with Kharn, though, I think Fallout 1 is still my favorite because of the complete lack of tribals. Maybe it's the engineer part of my brain, but the idea of going back to tribes after we design LASER WEAPONS seems abhorrent. Forgetting knowledge is one thing, regressing to that point...ahh, but this argument has been done to death. And it's a moot point anyway

It's not so much about regression as it the fact that it is "out of character", so to speak.

Post nuclear war we can only expect and wait for regression, but why would this regression come the form of stopping to wear pre-war clothes, fabricating your own weapons, clothes, etc.? Even as long after the war as Fallout 2 was set (which should be as long after the war as the story goes), "regression" would mean not making progress, but rather using up the tattered remain of the old civilization.

The whole tribal mysticism thing doesn't fit because it is not tied to the World of the Future, really. It ruins the feel of regressing and feeding on the corpse of the world because it *is* essentially about progress, about creating new things.

See Mad Max 3 being ruined by tribal kids for reference.

 

[Silencer]

Perhaps it was about a belief that the apocalypse was caused by the sins of the "Old World", which should thus not be revived nor returned to; Hence, all it's remainders would be shunned, a concept I toyed with in my PnP RPG; Also, it could have laid the blame for the destruction on scientists and their wicked tools; I believe something like that was pictured in "A canticle for Leibowitz", which, while not exactly a "World of the Future", is still a 1950's book.

That said, I believe that such a concept is too modern for Fallout's setting, although quite a nice take on PA themes in general.

 

[requiem_for_a_starfury]

I'd have to disagree with you guys, I thought that the one thing Fallout was lacking was tribals.

Earth Abides by George R. Stewart, 1949 one of the best post apoc books out there it would of influenced any pulp sci-fi writer working on a PA story in the 50's.

Tribals fit Fallout's retro 50's pulp sci-fi theme more than traditional guns.

My only quibble with tribals as they were portrayed in FO2 & FOT was the distinction between tribals and citizens. Surely outside of the vaults and places like the Brotherhood most people are going to be poorly educated with little knowledge of the old world, most of which had been turned into myth. Supplies of prewar clothing would be getting short, most would of been patched and repaired until they were little more than brahmin hide anyway.

If you played Fallout for the first time without reading any of the background or watching the intro you'd think that the game was set only a few years, maybe a couple of decades max after the war. Given people's knowledge of the prewar world and in most cases their attempts at hanging onto civilization.

If all the survivors came from vaults and similar shelters, then that would explain things to some extent. Then you would expect their level of knowledge, and it would be logical as the sequels number up to see more and more tribals, (perhaps it would be better to call them primitives) with the distinction moving to settlers and nomads.

As to the tribal mysticism, is it really any different to the Brotherhood's quest for technology or the CoC?

 

[Brother None]

As to the tribal mysticism, is it really any different to the Brotherhood's quest for technology or the CoC?

Yes. The Brotherhood's main quest was not to find anything new, it was to preserve and expand what had existed before the war.

Tribals stand diametrically opposed to everything in the nature of the first Fallout game, opposite to Junktown, the Brotherhood and the Vaults. The only ones that shared the nature of "building a new society" were Shady Sands and the Master.

Again, the thing with tribals is that they miss that forlorn feeling of society gone missing that made Fallout great. The most "Fallout" of all towns, in my opinion, was Junktown, a town obviously built from the ruins of old society, with walls of cars and houses made of leftover junk. Shady Sands' Adobe buildings on the other hand are a clear sign of people not building on the ruins of the apocalypse, but building a new world

As for retro pulp, that is irrelevant if they do not fit into the overal World of the Future PA feel. Remember, Chucky once tried to pull the same with pinup models from the 50's. Not everything 50's, not even everything 50's PA is automatically Fallout.

I fail to see how tribals who build their own tribal society independant of pre-war technology are "Fallout". Not only because Indian tribal cults do have a hard time fitting into the World of the Future, but also because you begin to loose the feeling that there was an apocalypse that disjointed and destroyed a civilization which now haunts you. This ghost of civilization dead whispered all through Fallout, from the Glow to the Hub, but there was no such whisper in Arroyo.

Hell, for most practical purposes Arroyo could've been set in a D&D CRPG.

 

[Briosafreak]

The Mesa Verde map? Sure, go for it. It was the very last thing of VB I ever got to touch.

Here it is then




Edit: and by the way here are two sketches of boulder dome, can´t find them on the gallery.

The first one
The second one

 

[Pope Viper]

Cool, Brios!!!!

 

[requiem_for_a_starfury]

Yes. The Brotherhood's main quest was not to find anything new, it was to preserve and expand what had existed before the war.

Err where does it say that tribals are looking for anything new? The Brotherhood have basically created a new religion, they revere their ancestors and the symbols of the past. There's no difference between them and the tribals, they both hold the relics handed down to them, be it power armour or grampy's bone, in the highest esteem.

Tribals stand diametrically opposed to everything in the nature of the first Fallout game, opposite to Junktown, the Brotherhood and the Vaults. The only ones that shared the nature of "building a new society" were Shady Sands and the Master.

Again, the thing with tribals is that they miss that forlorn feeling of society gone missing that made Fallout great. The most "Fallout" of all towns, in my opinion, was Junktown, a town obviously built from the ruins of old society, with walls of cars and houses made of leftover junk. Shady Sands' Adobe buildings on the other hand are a clear sign of people not building on the ruins of the apocalypse, but building a new world

Tribals aren't about building a new society they are about survival. They are the epitome of the forlorn feeling, there's nothing that symbolizes what was lost more than a bunch of primitives living amongst the ruins of the old world worshiping some old advertising symbol like a michelin man or a drugstore indian.

As for retro pulp, that is irrelevant if they do not fit into the overal World of the Future PA feel. Remember, Chucky once tried to pull the same with pinup models from the 50's. Not everything 50's, not even everything 50's PA is automatically Fallout.

No agreed, but as I said in my previous posts the trouble is differentiating between tribals and townsfolks. Even in the den or Junktown the townsfolk are just too clean, educated and civilized.

I fail to see how tribals who build their own tribal society independant of pre-war technology are "Fallout". Not only because Indian tribal cults do have a hard time fitting into the World of the Future, but also because you begin to loose the feeling that there was an apocalypse that disjointed and destroyed a civilization which now haunts you. This ghost of civilization dead whispered all through Fallout, from the Glow to the Hub, but there was no such whisper in Arroyo.

Hell, for most practical purposes Arroyo could've been set in a D&D CRPG.

I think that tribals are the symbol of the dead society, agreed Arroyo was out of place, they should of been living in amongst the ruins using more junk to build their shelters with. I'll keep saying it, the trouble isn't tribals but how they were portrayed as being less than the townsfolk, outside places like vault city and the Brotherhood every one should be a tribal or primitive to some degree. With the only division being between settlers and nomads.

 

[Brother None]

rr where does it say that tribals are looking for anything new? The Brotherhood have basically created a new religion, they revere their ancestors and the symbols of the past. There's no difference between them and the tribals, they both hold the relics handed down to them, be it power armour or grampy's bone, in the highest esteem.

The Brotherhood worships that which was removed by the Great War, pre-war relics.

The tribals from Fallout 2 didn't have any prewar relics, save the pipboy and Vault suit, they survived and worshipped on their own.

Tribals aren't about building a new society they are about survival. They are the epitome of the forlorn feeling, there's nothing that symbolizes what was lost more than a bunch of primitives living amongst the ruins of the old world worshiping some old advertising symbol like a michelin man or a drugstore indian.

Yes, they would work that way and that's why I didn't think of the Cyphers as the worst form of tribals in the games.

You'll remember that the Fallout 2 tribals, bar the Vault Suit, didn't have such an interesting structure. There's a difference between people who've simply receded, are ill-educated and "worship" or "use without knowledge" things from before the war and the hunter-gatherer tribe that was Arroyo, which fashioned its own weapons, clothes, built its own tents and made its own medicine. What is Fallout about that?

No agreed, but as I said in my previous posts the trouble is differentiating between tribals and townsfolks. Even in the den or Junktown the townsfolk are just too clean, educated and civilized.

The Den was full of junkies and lowlifes.

Junktown also was full of homeless drifters. The only clean educated people there were the guards.

I think that tribals are the symbol of the dead society, agreed Arroyo was out of place, they should of been living in amongst the ruins using more junk to build their shelters with. I'll keep saying it, the trouble isn't tribals but how they were portrayed as being less than the townsfolk, outside places like vault city and the Brotherhood every one should be a tribal or primitive to some degree. With the only division being between settlers and nomads.

Now we're just confusing things

When I say tribal, I mean those groups that have grown independant of pre-war technology and relics and have grown their own tribal customs and tribal systems. People like Arroyo.

I don't mind scavengers or "primitives" as much as I do people who live in a hunter-gatherer tribal mode.

That said, for the above reason I find it preferable to have the period surrounding Fallout 2 set as the latest date in Fallout-lore, more-or-less. You can only push it so far until the unique society feel of Fallout is lost. Hell, one would argue it was already lost in Fallout 2, with the NCR and Arroyo.

 

[requiem_for_a_starfury]

The Brotherhood worships that which was removed by the Great War, pre-war relics.

The tribals from Fallout 2 didn't have any prewar relics, save the pipboy and Vault suit, they survived and worshipped on their own.

They both still have a new system of worship though. I didn't like the dream visions, but essentially the Brotherhood and tribals are the same, except one has technology and the other doesn't, they both have created new religions. They are at opposite ends of the spectrum, and the tribals serve as a contrast to the Brotherhood, just as the empty wasteland was a contrast to the townships.

You'll remember that the Fallout 2 tribals, bar the Vault Suit, didn't have such an interesting structure. There's a difference between people who've simply receded, are ill-educated and "worship" or "use without knowledge" things from before the war and the hunter-gatherer tribe that was Arroyo, which fashioned its own weapons, clothes, built its own tents and made its own medicine. What is Fallout about that?

Not really, while I didn't like the art work of Arroyo (I'd of expected tents if they had been a nomadic group though) there's little difference between the tribals of Arroyo and townsfolk who make zip guns and pipe rifles, or shelters out of scavenged material. The healing powder was more than a little stupid, but is it really any different from other groups who make their own drugs or booze? And it's hard to believe that all the prewar clothing has survived that long, it's likely someone scavenged some supplies of various materials and makes their clothing.

The Den was full of junkies and lowlifes.

Junktown also was full of homeless drifters. The only clean educated people there were the guards.

And the merchants and the bar owners, the restauranteur, and the junkyard attendant. So what did the junkies do before they became addicts? Or to be considered a lowlife you'd need some form of society to be tossed out of?

Now we're just confusing things

When I say tribal, I mean those groups that have grown independant of pre-war technology and relics and have grown their own tribal customs and tribal systems. People like Arroyo.

I don't mind scavengers or "primitives" as much as I do people who live in a hunter-gatherer tribal mode.

That said, for the above reason I find it preferable to have the period surrounding Fallout 2 set as the latest date in Fallout-lore, more-or-less. You can only push it so far until the unique society feel of Fallout is lost. Hell, one would argue it was already lost in Fallout 2, with the NCR and Arroyo.

The tribal relics could be anything, and in a PA world having everyone with some form of working technology is far more unbelievable. As for hunter-gathering, is this any worse than farming? There can't be enough supplies of tinned food to feed every one. And the tribal systems and customs are no different than the Brotherhood or the various gangs and groups of Fallout. Though they could of toned the me Tonto, approach down a bit.

 

[kumquatq3]

The Mesa Verde map? Sure, go for it. It was the very last thing of VB I ever got to touch.

Here it is then

That finally got out eh? You had that "create child" avatar forever!

Hey Huggies :!: Been awhile! <- the guy behind the spiritual successor to Dogmeat in VB, fyi.

and nice docs again Odin

Here's my contribution to the thread:

 

[Briosafreak]

See? I can keep a secret


Kharn or the other guys, we might aswell give a small note about these pics on the news, might stir a discussion or two.

 

[Pope Viper]

I like the dialog system.

Dammit.

 

[Briosafreak]

The guys on the pics were Interplay interns, i seem to remember. It doesn`t seem finished, though.The loading screen rocked.


Edit: Pics are on the Obsidian forum too, so it`s safe to say it`s fair game to make a newsbitbit and put them on the gallery.

 

[Dagon]

Very nice pics from techdemo
it would be nice if you could give us techdemo aswell

 

[SimpleMinded]

I like the character creation screen. Mmmm the main character looks like an oldie though lol. Nice to see all the options though.

And I don't understand. Interplay saw all this stuff and said "hrmm... FBOS is definitely a bigger winner than this game" bizarre...