MTV Multiplayer previews Fallout 3

[Outbreak]

Why is arguing a point make a bethesda defender.....I could care less about the company.

I was merely arguing what you said in your 2nd point--If someone gives you the coordinates for the location, I don't see how it being on your compass is any different then it being on the map.

I also said if it is poping up random locations you would have no way of knowing are there, then I agree it is being poorly implemented.

I agree.

 

[squinty]

An obvious point that leads back to what? That every element in the previous games must be present and correct in exactly the same form in the new one. This is old, and it aint going to happen for better or for worse.

So, if it is worse, people shouldn't say that they think so?

My main objection is to the entire idea that one needs to encouraged to explore, and especially if that requires being led to every minor location and then being given a big old XP pat on the head...

Finding a rusting old basketball hoop shouldn't be worthy of XP.

Having said that, exactly what need is there for a quest compass? On a world map, there is every reason to show people that they are close to a location which could be seen by their character. It simply wouldn't work otherwise. In the open world of Fallout 3 it should be possible to explore using ingame senses, rather than some spooky knowledge.

Very weak and you know it.

Equally as weak as telling people to get over it...

Can you not argue intelligently without bringing something to an extreme? Do you really honestly think you will get xp for finding an old basketball hoop? If you do,I will be the first in line to pat you on the back and congratulate you on your incredible knowledge. You dont have to explore. If you do indeed see it as encouragement to explore then feel free to ignore it. If you are going to play the game at all though it seems likely you will explore as this is a key part of the gameplay.

Edit: Also, I believe in Oblivion you could turn off the minor location markers could you not?

 

[Ausir]

Can you not argue intelligently without bringing something to an extreme? Do you really honestly think you will get xp for finding an old basketball hoop?

I believe a baseball field was given in a preview as an example of a location being pointed at by the compass.

 

[squinty]

Can you not argue intelligently without bringing something to an extreme? Do you really honestly think you will get xp for finding an old basketball hoop?

I believe a baseball field was given in a preview as an example of a location being pointed at by the compass.

Are baseball fields usually where basketball hoops are located? I dont know, Im english so we dont have any. Regardless, I think the discovery of a whole baseball field\complex is a little different to just finding a hoop yes? If the field is quest specific, there may well be some XP involved.

 

[Bernard Bumner]

Can you not argue intelligently without bringing something to an extreme? Do you really honestly think you will get xp for finding an old basketball hoop?

So, basically you just cherry-picked that one bit in order to argue that I wasn't making an intelligent point?

Did you read the rest of the post?

EDIT: I'm also English, but I know what one finds on basketball courts and baseball fields. (I was simply joking that finding a sporting venue shouldn't be enough for a reward.)

If you do,I will be the first in line to pat you on the back and congratulate you on your incredible knowledge. You dont have to explore. If you do indeed see it as encouragement to explore then feel free to ignore it. If you are going to play the game at all though it seems likely you will explore as this is a key part of the gameplay.

Yes, but my point was made on the basis of the MTV Multiplayer preview quoted at the start of this thread, that:

If you follow the compass’ hints, you’ll be sidetracked pretty easily, discovering supermarkets, baseball fields, movie theaters and more. You gain experience for discovering landmarks, so there’s a good incentive to explore as much of the “Fallout 3″ landscape as possible.

Now, maybe I was being a little facetious about the hoop (although, now that I've reread the quote, I'm not so sure), but the point is that XP for discovering landmarks, taken at face value, seems odd. Why should I get XP simply for blundering, or being shepherded, to landmarks? Why?

The incentive to explore should simply be to find what is there. Any bonuses should really be material, unless you're searching for quest-related locations.

 

[squinty]

The incentive to explore should simply be to find what is there. Any bonuses should really be material, unless you're searching for quest-related locations.
_________________

I agree. Again though, are you quite sure how many of these locations are actually marked on your compass. Ill let the big ones go (school/baseball field etc.) because they are major places the designers want you to see. Like I said before, I would be surprised if every nook and cranny was marked, thus leaving you with plenty to explore. The bonuses in these smaller locations could be food/ammo/stimpaks which are always usefull and will always be an incentive for inqusitive players to head off the beaten track. If somewhere is in the close vicinity, I dont see a problem with it appearing on your compass. Its probably right in your face anyway!

Edit: The important thing to remember is, that the preview states that the findng of landmarks is rewarded. Not smaller places such as houses and the like.

 

[Ausir]

Edit: The important thing to remember is, that the preview states that the findng of landmarks is rewarded. Not smaller places such as houses and the like.

The question is - why should being handheld into finding a landmark be rewarded at all?

 

[sonicblastoise]

This big circle was so big because:
a) locations like The Hub or Junktown are hard to miss
b) it would be bad game design if you would have to click at point of 1mm x 1mm size
Besides it wasn't that big.
Anyway, it doesn't change the fact that arrow telling you were to go is stupid.

No, this is exactly the kind of attitude that irritates me on this forum. Complaining about the quest compass, but saying it is ok for the big circles in the original games is as hypocritical as it gets. They operate exactly the same way. They give you the point on your pipboy which then leads you to the location in both instances.

The comparable way to not have the compass in the originals would have been to say, from vault city go southwest and you will find new reno, then when you bumped into New Reno the green circle was there, but it wasn't present on your map until you found it. Seriously, this is not a big break...heck it isn't even a break at all, it is encorporating the pipboy map location into 3D FPS play vs. map travel as was present in the originals.


I could be mistaken, but you received experience for finding locations in the originals as well I believe.

wrong. wrong wrong wrong wrong

towns only showed up because

A. you were close enough to reveal them on the world map
B. someone somewhere told you where they were, and even then it was not "discovered," it was greyed out until you actually traveled there

furthermore you never gain experience for finding "zones" or "secrets." you only eve got exp from using your outdoorsman skill effectively (e.g. avoiding random enemy encounters)

and yes, it is a huge break from previous games, because there were no "arrow pointing this-a-way" or "arrows pointing that-a-way" on the world map. like you yourself said, you essentially "bump into" new areas via exploration, while following a general compass direction. not an actual guide.

if they wanted it to really be "closer" to the originals, remove compass arrows, utilize their "impressive draw distance" and make ruins, towns, and sites of interest visible onscreen while you walk. so you'll want to go there, because you can SEE IT. not because your pipboy is an all-knowing APB device with GPS.

this "quest finding apparatus" is making this game sound more and more like WoW.

 

[squinty]

I dont think you are being led by the hand by finding a large landmark. Landmarks generally can be seen from miles around.

 

[Ausir]

I dont think you are being led by the hand by finding a large landmark. Landmarks generally can be seen from miles around.

If the game is so immersive, and since it's actually FPP, why not simply make them visible instead of using the compass for that? And why give any XP for it anyway?

 

[squinty]

Well I suppose if the game is supposedly being played by the dribbling fools that are console owners (of which I am one) then it fits in with BS policy of showing the half wits where the main places are. As for the xp........poss because the major locations are main quest orientated or at the very least start off large quests. This did happen in the first games as has been pointed out.

 

[Casual Gamer]

You got experience for exploring certain places in the other Fallouts, the one freshest in my mind (because I just played it) was getting around 1000 xp for taking the elevator to the 5th floor of the Glow. And before someone says it, you didn't get the experience for stumbling into the green circle, yes, but it shows precedent for arbitrary reward of exploration. And why wouldn't you gain "experience points" for experiencing things? I don't see the issue.

The closer this game comes to release, the weaker and more desperate these arguments and complaints seem to get. I think some of the diehards are worried that the game won't suck, and (despite some signatures to the contrary) active and detailed pessimism is a game you surely can lose.

I don't, of course, know anyone's true feelings on the matter, but I have my perspective. I can't wait for this game to come out, the attitude on this forum toward Fallout fans who are anticipating (or not actively condemning) this game is uncomfortably hostile.

 

[thefalloutfan]

The attitude on this forum toward Fallout fans who are anticipating (or not actively condemning) this game is uncomfortably hostile.

Not really, I never got told off because of my differing opinion After a while you realise the stereotypes ain't so true after all.

 

[Outbreak]

This can be shot down of course, but one thought of awarding XP for reaching a location (without the inclusion of an arrow) is because it might be difficult to survive the trek there as a whole. In many of these previews, it sounds as though very dangerous creatures (like high level super mutants) reside in the more famous locales, and so, like completing a journey to find a ruin, you are rewarded for simply surviving long enough to reach that destination.

Just a thought, since we still don't have any solid evidence of what will take place in game.

 

[Brother None]

And before someone says it, you didn't get the experience for stumbling into the green circle, yes, but it shows precedent for arbitrary reward of exploration.

Arbitrary? The only examples the spring to mind, from Fallout 1, are the Glow and Vault 15. Both were tied to quests, and were actually XP awards for achieving something challenging - in both cases the locations were hard-to-reach and/or involved some thinking on the part of the player.

 

[Casual Gamer]

The attitude on this forum toward Fallout fans who are anticipating (or not actively condemning) this game is uncomfortably hostile.

Not really, I never got told off because of my differing opinion After a while you realise the stereotypes ain't so true after all.

You were literally called naive yesterday. That condescension bugs some people, obviously it rolls off your back.

Arbitrary? The only examples the spring to mind, from Fallout 1, are the Glow and Vault 15. Both were tied to quests, and were actually XP awards for achieving something challenging - in both cases the locations were hard-to-reach and/or involved some thinking on the part of the player.

Arbitrary. In fallout 2 you get 200xp for listening to a story about a cat. There is not now nor has there ever been anything wrong with this. They're called experience points for a good reason.

 

[Brother None]

You were literally called naive yesterday. That condescension bugs some people, obviously it rolls off your back.

Dude I'm sorry, but if our attitude bothers you, then leave. It is pretty far from our task to adapt our attitude to your expectations. If we don't fit your bill, go somewhere else.

Also, stay on topic guys or I'll split-vat.

Arbitrary. In fallout 2 you get 200xp for listening to a story about a cat.

Uh-huh. Quoting you:
And before someone says it, you didn't get the experience for stumbling into the green circle, yes, but it shows precedent for arbitrary reward of exploration.

So far everyone has been talking about exploration, you talked about exploration, your point was specifically about it and I replied in kind. Your point was shot down so now suddenly you bring in dialogue-based experience? Not the same topic.

 

[Casual Gamer]

So far everyone has been talking about exploration, you talked about exploration, your point was specifically about it and I replied in kind. Your point was shot down so now suddenly you bring in dialogue-based experience? Not the same topic.

Are we incapable of having a normal discussion or is this just a game of points? I thought I was addressing the related point of arbitrary experience, and more specifically, what "experience points" mean. Which organically ties into the discussion at hand.

If instead, we are just trying to one up each other and continue the fruitless argument, I'm willing to clarify what you saw as me accepting my point as being "shot down".

No matter how you slice it, you get the experience for accessing the 5th floor. You don't get experience for turning on the primary power, and considering the game tells you "there isn't enough power" I wouldn't consider this puzzle any more difficult that walking to a baseball field. There are the absolute basest of critical thinking skills employed.

Really, what's wrong with providing experience for experiencing things? This is the point I was trying to make with my first post, some people on here will latch onto the smallest thing in every new preview and manufacture a dubious basis for ripping it apart. I won't even mention the irony of trusting only the disagreeable aspects of every article. Oh, I guess I did.

 

[Humpsalot]

Looks like this guy has similar concerns as I do. Open world can be overwhelming. In FFXIII got lost as hell at some points, never finished, never finished any GTA game, never finished Oblivion, but I am much more interested in this game, so I think I will be more interested in finishing the side quests.

 

[UncannyGarlic]

EDIT: I will say that I wouldn't be too annoyed if the 'blips' showed up once you were close to a location, (that's similar to the originals) cause there might be certain areas, like an entrance to a subway, which might be very hard to find otherwise. We've seen how much clutter is in certain areas of the new world, and we're also not sure just how big this world is. (I'm not blindly defending BTW, we just haven't played it yet)

I agree that this would be a fine way to go about making it easier for players to find hidden entrances to something of legitimate size and importance (like a special encounter) but from the sound of things, arrows show up on you're radar when you're a ways away from them and for all special encounters.

This isn't a derogatory statement toward you, but I just get tired of the amount of speculation, negative or otherwise that comes out on something that hasn't even been seen yet, or mentioned, by anyone other than, in this case, a previewer who wasn't even that interested in the game in the first place.

Actually we've known about this for awhile.

I was merely arguing what you said in your 2nd point--If someone gives you the coordinates for the location, I don't see how it being on your compass is any different then it being on the map.

I also said if it is poping up random locations you would have no way of knowing are there, then I agree it is being poorly implemented.

That's a fair point and I wouldn't be against being able to follow an arrow to locations on your map but I'd prefer it all be player innitiated (player chooses the point on the map, maybe only cities). The idea being to keep the player in the game moving around and minimize their time going into the menu to check where they are on the map, an admirable goal.

You got experience for exploring certain places in the other Fallouts, the one freshest in my mind (because I just played it) was getting around 1000 xp for taking the elevator to the 5th floor of the Glow. And before someone says it, you didn't get the experience for stumbling into the green circle, yes, but it shows precedent for arbitrary reward of exploration. And why wouldn't you gain "experience points" for experiencing things? I don't see the issue.

It was experience for reaching the end of an area which can kill you if you don't properly prepare and which has backstory stuff. Still, I agree that it's stupid that you got experience there as it was a fairly arbitrary point to do so (though the reason behind it was a good one) but let's not forget that the first two games were not perfect. Just because a problem is present in them doesn't forgive it in future installments.

Looks like this guy has similar concerns as I do. Open world can be overwhelming. In FFXIII got lost as hell at some points, never finished, never finished any GTA game, never finished Oblivion, but I am much more interested in this game, so I think I will be more interested in finishing the side quests.

GTA3 (the only recent one I've played) didn't suffer from an open world, it suffered from poor and repetitive missions. FFXII didn't suffer from being an open world (I know the stuff you're talking about and was frustrated by it aswell), it suffered from having excessive numbers of arbitrary areas and excessively large arbitrary areas (amongst many other problems). Bad design is bad design but I agree that having an open world opens the door to many travel related problems.