My review of Fallout 3

[Jogre]

I guess my point is that we keep circling around is that things aren't going to get better in the Capital Wasteland, they're going to get worse, which is why you, the protagonist, need to intervene. There's an assumption of optimism here which I don't think the Capital Wasteland really lends itself to.

Maybe it shouldn't be any better, but the fact that it isn't any more built up, and no factions have bothered to seize power in a literal anarchy for 200 years is a bit far fetched.

Fallout 1 was placed in a damaged and broken world but it wasn't the same level of irradiated lawless hell that the Capital Wasteland is.

Calling a place lawless simply implies that rebuilding has not take place, it is not a reason for things to have not gotten better in itself, as much as a consequence of it.

And if the Capital Wasteland is such a shithole, why don't people just move elsewhere. Why try and rebuild in an irradiated/raider infested hellhole, when there are plenty of places in the world which are far better off.

 

[mithrap]

Maybe it shouldn't be any better, but the fact that it isn't any more built up, and no factions have bothered to seize power in a literal anarchy for 200 years is a bit far fetched.


Calling a place lawless simply implies that rebuilding has not take place, it is not a reason for things to have not gotten better in itself, as much as a consequence of it.

And if the Capital Wasteland is such a shithole, why don't people just move elsewhere. Why try and rebuild in an irradiated/raider infested hellhole, when there are plenty of places in the world which are far better off.

Correction : why did people ever decide to settle there in the first place ?
According to Fallout 3's lore, Super Mutants have been there since two centuries. Why would anybody decide to create a settlement in view of a super mutant owned "city" ?
I mean, if I'm the survival/entrepreneur/settler kind of guy, I probably won't create a town 10 miles from wherever ISIS has its homebase now, for obvious reasons.

 

[Prone Squanderer]

Maybe it shouldn't be any better, but the fact that it isn't any more built up, and no factions have bothered to seize power in a literal anarchy for 200 years is a bit far fetched.


Calling a place lawless simply implies that rebuilding has not take place, it is not a reason for things to have not gotten better in itself, as much as a consequence of it.

And if the Capital Wasteland is such a shithole, why don't people just move elsewhere. Why try and rebuild in an irradiated/raider infested hellhole, when there are plenty of places in the world which are far better off.

How exactly do the raiders manage to form their groups? What keeps them together inbetween raiding? They'd need to know where to find their weapons to raid with, not to mention how to use them and maintain them. Who teaches them this? Hell how do they know how to talk if there's no education system?

They don't seem to have any origins at all, they're just there.

And radiation, well the game tells us that pretty much all the water is irradiated. So really no one should be alive since no one seems to know how to purify it and Project Purity is their only hope.

Correction : why did people ever decide to settle there in the first place ?
According to Fallout 3's lore, Super Mutants have been there since two centuries. Why would anybody decide to create a settlement in view of a super mutant owned "city" ?
I mean, if I'm the survival/entrepreneur/settler kind of guy, I probably won't create a town 10 miles from wherever ISIS has its homebase now, for obvious reasons.

Another question: How do these dumbass mutants know how to turn others? They are as thick as two short planks yet they somehow know how to craft their own armour, load and use weapons and turn people into mutants. Don't tell me they used computers, because Fawkes is the only one we are told used one as the others smashed it when they caught him doing it.

I loved playing this game when I first got it, but the only thing I can give it props for is it led to me playing the first two and eventually New Vegas when it released.

 

[Jogre]

While Bethesda has some shitty business policies, I generally think these kind of things are not shared with businesses during a purchase. You make a bid, someone else makes a bid, and whichever is higher is sold. Either that or one party says no and they go higher.

To my knowledge, Troika and Bethesda were the main bidders for Fallout. Bethesda must have known that another company was bidding for Fallout, and it wouldn't take much detective work to realise that Tim Cain was involved.

 

[Millim]

Fallout 3 is really hard to enjoy without historical context, and even then, New Vegas came along two years later to really wipe Fallout 3 away.

I guess I still enjoy it for the nostalgia factor alone, which is part of the reason why I dislike Fallout 4.
Great, I've been introduced to the series, I know what a good fallout game is and I know the backstory, can we please have some interesting plot device outside 'I need to look for my <insert family member>'.

In fact, New Vegas is the only game that doesn't have a motivation of finding something, it's a revenge story, pure and simple.

It's one of the reasons I prefer it over F2.

 

[Vergil]

In fact, New Vegas is the only game that doesn't have a motivation of finding something, it's a revenge story, pure and simple.

Well, you do have to "find" the guy who shot you before you can get your revenge. I mean it's obvious as hell he's gonna be in Vegas from the start but lore-wise the Courier still goes around asking question around towns to find where the "guy in the checkered suit" went. And if you want to stretch it, it's also finding the platinum chip that was taken from you. Of course the difference being it's not treated as something so urgent as in Fallout 3/4 where it's a lost family member and thus the story kind of breaks a bit when you spend the first 50 days of your "urgent and desperate search" dicking around the wasteland. In New Vegas finding the guy who shot you is obviously the main storyline but it's not treated as if theres a huge sense of (false) urgency about it so you can be left to your own devices without the PC looking like psycho who doesn't really care about finding his father/son all that much except in dialog where they act like they've been on a frantic search the whole time.

 

[Prone Squanderer]

I like how New Vegas starts off as a revenge story, but as you progress it becomes much more than that. You go from someone who's been robbed and left for dead to someone with the power to shape the future of thousands.

 

[CT Phipps]

Maybe it shouldn't be any better, but the fact that it isn't any more built up, and no factions have bothered to seize power in a literal anarchy for 200 years is a bit far fetched.

Paradise Falls is treated as the most powerful faction in the region with Rivet City and the BoS being the only places they can't actually control.

Calling a place lawless simply implies that rebuilding has not take place, it is not a reason for things to have not gotten better in itself, as much as a consequence of it.

Weak central governments have been unable to bring order to many regions across the globe. Particularly in desert climates, there are places which remain tribal and do not EVER develop centralized Western governments until they were imposed.

The assumption that governments must exist is kind of a historical assumption which doesn't necessarily pan out.

And if the Capital Wasteland is such a shithole, why don't people just move elsewhere. Why try and rebuild in an irradiated/raider infested hellhole, when there are plenty of places in the world which are far better off.

Well the District of Columbia and larger portion of West Virginia the game represents is miles and miles of irradiated monster-filled wasteland with no major source of fresh drinking water which doesn't come from technology to purify it or rain.

But hey, it didn't convince you and I understand that.

How exactly do the raiders manage to form their groups? What keeps them together inbetween raiding? They'd need to know where to find their weapons to raid with, not to mention how to use them and maintain them. Who teaches them this? Hell how do they know how to talk if there's no education system?

We have the Raider "Central hub" in Evergreen Mills. We also know they work with Paradise Falls, which works with the Pitt that provides them with all of their ammunition in exchange for slaves. We also see them having taken over places with food in them (The Super Market) and staking out settlements to take over (the school near Megaton).

They don't seem to have any origins at all, they're just there.

Well, there's a bunch of Vaults involving mind-control experiments. However, there's an ex-Raider in Megaton who basically says that people become Raiders for the reason people become them in any scarcity society--because it's easier than working.

Ashur has also caused a change in the region by the fact he's taking whole settlements up to work at the Pitt.

And radiation, well the game tells us that pretty much all the water is irradiated. So really no one should be alive since no one seems to know how to purify it and Project Purity is their only hope.

One of your first quests is to fix the water purifer in Megaton.

 

[Jogre]

Weak central governments have been unable to bring order to many regions across the globe. Particularly in desert climates, there are places which remain tribal and do not EVER develop centralized Western governments until they were imposed.

The assumption that governments must exist is kind of a historical assumption which doesn't necessarily pan out.

They don't nescessarily have to be stable governments, or even governments at all, simply ruling factions.

Yes, it can still be chaotic and unstable, but the fact that most of it remains anarchic, and nobody is installing there own power in the region is somewhat stupid.

Like, The Capital Wasteland has been being terrorised by Raiders for a while, and you want me to believe that none of these raiders have bothered to actually try conquering, and establishing a dynasty.

Or how come out of Megaton and Rivet City, neither have bothered to try and expand there borders at all.

or rain.

Your arguing it doesn't rain in the capital wasteland?

Sure you don't want to rethink that through a bit.

Well the District of Columbia and larger portion of West Virginia the game represents is miles and miles of irradiated monster-filled wasteland

Nicole, the founder of the Followers of the Apocalypse was born in to one of the most irradiated stretches of desert in the world(The Glow), she and her family traveled roughly 130 miles to The Angels Boneyard in hopes of resettling somewhere safer.

The distance between Old Olney and Andale(The two corners of the Capital Wasteland) is roughly 30 miles.

I refuse to believe that a group of settlers, in a place filled with raiders, irradiated water and mutants, aren't willing to at least risk a 30 mile journey to get out of there.

 

[CT Phipps]

Point taken,

Ultimately, you're right @JO'Geran and I submit to you that there's a lot of which doesn't make literal sense in the Capital Wasteland. Certainly, there doesn't appear to be sufficient history in the CW to explain what happened (if anything) in the past two centuries to any settlements or survivors.

We can extrapolate that Super Mutants and large numbers of Raiders plus a culture of slavery mixed with the natural biohazards/pollution kept the population low but that is never spelled out. Also, you have to wonder why anyone is in the Capital Wasteland the same way people in Far Harbor are. Just stubborn indeed.

Ultimately, I think I forgive a lot because I feel that Fallout 3 really managed to make me feel like I was contributing to the redemption of humanity. So much of the original games was about how humanity would eventually recover and Fallout 3 makes you a vital part of that rebuilding process. You help build a machine which purifies the entire Basin of the District of Columbia as well as bring an end to the two biggest threats to life in the region.

In short, making the environment to be the primary hazard of the region but you OVERCOME THAT is what really makes me feel good about this game and its worldbuilding.

But yes, you're right. It's got a lot of flaws in terms of realism.

 

[Prone Squanderer]

We have the Raider "Central hub" in Evergreen Mills. We also know they work with Paradise Falls, which works with the Pitt that provides them with all of their ammunition in exchange for slaves. We also see them having taken over places with food in them (The Super Market) and staking out settlements to take over (the school near Megaton).



Well, there's a bunch of Vaults involving mind-control experiments. However, there's an ex-Raider in Megaton who basically says that people become Raiders for the reason people become them in any scarcity society--because it's easier than working.

Ashur has also caused a change in the region by the fact he's taking whole settlements up to work at the Pitt.

I don't think you fully understand the point I'm trying to make. Yes there's Evergreen Mills, but that's the only raider group that trades with anyone. Don't get me started on the Super Mart, a place that should long be empty of anything valuable.

There's only one Vault with a mind control experiment (92 I think the number is) and that ended badly. Vault 106 was just to test the effect of drugs on the dwellers, all of who died. The "survivors" you find are likely wastelanders who believe they're members of the Vault.

One of your first quests is to fix the water purifer in Megaton.

One that barely works for Megaton. Counting Rivet City, that leaves 2 locations with functioning purifiers. That's not enough to keep the rest of the CW alive. I get it, you'll tell me that it gives us more of a reason to get Project Purity working, but to me the lack of people trying to rebuild and create their own water treatment methods makes them look stupid.

EDIT: Does the Brotherhood have a purifier? Cannot remember.

 

[CT Phipps]

I don't think you fully understand the point I'm trying to make. Yes there's Evergreen Mills, but that's the only raider group that trades with anyone. Don't get me started on the Super Mart, a place that should long be empty of anything valuable.

Random aside, I have the interesting thought plenty of the places we loot aren't actually full of loot from the Pre-War era but loot which has been placed there by other Wastelanders over the past two centuries. Intact buildings, after all, shouldn't be allowed to go to waste.

This, of course, is part of the problem in some fans eyes as no one apparently cleans up anymore or builds anything so locations look like they were abandoned a couple of years ago at worst. I'm not blind to that flaw.

Sometimes Bethesda's Fallout feels like it's more a weird supernatural Purgatory than a living functional place.

One that barely works for Megaton. Counting Rivet City, that leaves 2 locations with functioning purifiers. That's not enough to keep the rest of the CW alive. I get it, you'll tell me that it gives us more of a reason to get Project Purity working, but to me the lack of people trying to rebuild and create their own water treatment methods makes them look stupid.

Well, RL science time, which is something that probably doesn't have a place in this conversation. I can actually build an anti-radiation water purification system with ten pounds of sand and a plastic bag. Reverse Osmosis is not that difficult and there's plenty of other ways to distill water which leaves no radiation damage possible.

Honestly, Project: Purity shouldn't be such a big deal as it is but they're not making drinking water for the Commonwealth as apparently changing the entire environment.

The unlimited drinking water is just a side effect.

 

[Onyxium]

Fallout 3 IMO is not a lot better than F4, and actually worse in some regards. Its worldbuilding is poorly thought out for starters. The Capital Wasteland might have made a modicum of sense if it was set in 2100, but at 2277 it is seriously stretching the borders of believability. Most of the towns are either idiotic in concept, such as Megaton, or are not explored in enough detail. Rivet City could have tied in with Project Purity if they had wanted the clean water for hydroponic farming on the ship. Actually I still don't understand how the Capital Wasteland has any humans alive outside of vaults, considering how badly irradiated the water is supposed to be. F3 did some really egregious things in terms of the lore such as the BoS, Super Mutants and Harold....and Little Lamplight. But I won't go there. Oh and "Dad" is most definately not one of the last bastions of benevolence and sanity in the wasteland. Depending on how you interpret the main plot, he's either a sociopath, insane, a moron or all three simultaneously.


F3's combat is horrid. The gunplay is awkward, the melee is boring, sneaking is overpowered as per usual in Bethesda games and the AI is idiotic. It's literally Oblivion's shitty combat with magic removed and guns bolted on. VATS is so overpowered that I remember using it a lot just so I could finish the game as quickly as possible (and avoid the horrible combat). F3's presentation is just as bad. The graphics have aged poorly with the potato-faced NPCs, low-res textures, terrible lighting/shadows, puke green tint and of course the quality animations we have come to expect from Bethesda. Even when compared to contemporary games such as Demon's Souls and Dead Space, F3 is hideous.


I'll give Bethesda some credit for giving F3 more reactivity than any of their games prior or since, even if it pales in comparison to F1/2 and New Vegas. Some of the DLCs showed some promise too, although Operation: Anchorage was shit and I'd rather forget the existence of Zeta. The Pitt in particular had some unusually decent writing, although it seemed like it was rushed badly and never lived up to its potential. Their environmental storytelling was also good generally as well. The problem is though, none of that is enough to stop it from being thoroughly mediocre.


BTW, CT Phipps, how does your score system work? I dislike score systems primarily because they tend to be drastically overinflated. It's a major problem that I have with the modern gaming media. I'll give you a personal example: I absolutely love the Temple of Elemental Evil but it's not worthy of anything like a perfect 10/10 score, particularly when its unpatched and unmodded. It's possible to really enjoy a game and admit that it's objectively flawed or even terrible.

 

[Prone Squanderer]

Sometimes Bethesda's Fallout feels like it's more a weird supernatural Purgatory than a living functional place.

Well, RL science time, which is something that probably doesn't have a place in this conversation. I can actually build an anti-radiation water purification system with ten pounds of sand and a plastic bag. Reverse Osmosis is not that difficult and there's plenty of other ways to distill water which leaves no radiation damage possible.

Honestly, Project: Purity shouldn't be such a big deal as it is but they're not making drinking water for the Commonwealth as apparently changing the entire environment.

The unlimited drinking water is just a side effect.

We're in agreement then


I think

 

[CT Phipps]

BTW, CT Phipps, how does your score system work? I dislike score systems primarily because they tend to be drastically overinflated. It's a major problem that I have with the modern gaming media. I'll give you a personal example: I absolutely love the Temple of Elemental Evil but it's not worthy of anything like a perfect 10/10 score, particularly when its unpatched and unmodded. It's possible to really enjoy a game and admit that it's objectively flawed or even terrible.

I have mentioned often I take repeated issue with the idea of a diminishing returns 10 out of 10. Because the idea there's a Platonic Ideal of a video game which is perfect in all respects is dumb and it leads to the weird and bizarre ratings of IGN. Instead, I give my ratings system on my blog based on a more simple but more accurate scale which is, "How much did I enjoy this title on a scale of 1-10."

This actually benefits games tremendously in terms of reflecting their content value versus their ability. To use an example, Vampire: The Masquerade: Bloodlines is an intensely flawed game. It was bugged as hell on release and the final third of the game is, essentially a mindless killing spree because they ran out of time. It's also a Troika game and preserves the spirit of what is considered to be the "True Fallout" here with sex, atmosphere, choice, emergent gameplay, and beautiful realization of my favorite tabletop roleplaying game.

So, I give t a 9.5/10 even though it would be much much lower if I kept taking away from all of its flaws. It's one of my all time favorite video games.

 

[Big No]

Random aside, I have the interesting thought plenty of the places we loot aren't actually full of loot from the Pre-War era but loot which has been placed there by other Wastelanders over the past two centuries. Intact buildings, after all, shouldn't be allowed to go to waste.

I always just presumed the food in the Super Duper Mart was from the Raiders. It is a Raider stronghold after all, I'd guess the Raiders would want somewhere to store their food. There's that back room with food as well, but I don't think the Raiders would be intelligent enough to break through the terminal required to enter the room.

 

[R.Graves]

Why fallout 3 is bad in comparison to its predecessors:



Why fallout 3 is bad on it's own merits:
http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=27085

Fallout 3 is objectively terrible. And I like it anyway. 1/10

*Shoots shit to 50s music*

 

[Dr Fallout]

Why fallout 3 is bad on it's own merits:
http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=27085

Author battles, Shamus Young Vs CT Phipps. Has to happen.

 

[Ragemage]

I have to disagree with the part about "dear old dad" and his sacrifice apparently being so noble and good it puts Jesus Christ to shame.

Here's the thing about the water purifier. Why exactly is it so bad that the Enclave have control over it?

Yes, we know Eden wants to "purify" the wasteland with his anti-FEV serum and this ends up killing hundreds if you happen to put it into the purifier. But here's the thing, that ISN'T Autumn's plan. Literally all Autumn wants to do is control the purifier so he and the rest of the Enclave become the good guys of America again. He has no interest in Eden's plan and that's the main reason Eden uses you to try and get the anti-FEV into the water in the first place; Autumn went AWOL. All Autumn wants is fame and glory.

Now of course you could argue Autumn's not so pure-hearted as he seems given how he killed that one scientist lady and he shoots you if you give him the passcode for the purifier, but there's a few things with this: 1. He shoots the scientist because time is of the essence. The Brotherhood are in the CW afterall, and if they learn their biggest threat is all crushed together in one convenient building like a tin of sardines, well, the Enclave would be finished. Autumn knew this and didn't have time to wait around reasoning with James. 2. I feel like him shooting you is a plothole in and of itself. He has no reason to shoot you, throughout the game you can tell everyone you hate your dad and have no loyalty to him, and you pose no threat to their operation as of yet. The only reason I can think of for him to shoot you is because you killed his men and he wants retribution, but by that point the only Enclave you should have killed more than likely would be the ones in Project Purity and they were shooting you first. So therefore it comes off as Autumn being an idiot when he could have very well recruited you to his cause instead, and also comes off as very unrealistic when compared to the rest of his personality. (considering the fact you can talk him down during the final battle proves he's willing to listen to reason and isn't just some buffoon who shoots people willy nilly)

So basically, Autumn isn't going to do anything with the water except turn it on and distribute it so people will know the Enclave is alive again and will fix America as the radio broadcasts promise. He isn't going to contaminate it, and even if he was, James has no reason to think this, given our very first introduction with the Enclave in the game (besides the radio) is here in Project Purity. Why did he even destroy the purifier in the first place? All of his life's work down the drain because why? He doesn't want someone other than himself or the brotherhood to control the water? The Enclave give no indication they're even going to charge money for the water, much less do anything with it (besides Eden, but as already stated Autumn is rebelling against him for this very reason). So basically James comes off as very selfish and egotistical, sacrificing himself just because of the mindset "Well if I can't have it, NO ONE CAN!"

 

[Dr Fallout]

That's exactly what Shamus says, and it's true.